Riding a horse in an outline - different methods of asking...

Perfect_Pirouette

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This is a really interesting thread.

I have always been taught if the horse is forward, straight, in a natural rythym, working over its back into a consistent contact, theoretically it SHOULD naturally fall into an 'outline.'

However the above on a lot of horses is easier said than done and each of the above steps can be a battle. BUT, in my experience, once each one of those steps is executed, the result IS that of a horse sitting on its hocks, the front end being light and it swinging down into the contact and feeling lovely and 'light'

The horse I currently have on loan is a prime example. He is 12 and to be honest I am unaware of how much schooling he has had. I have only had him 10 weeks but it has been a battle to get him to work correctly. When he first came he was stiff and unyielding, not at all forward and completely unbalanced in all gaits. I had him checked by physio etc who said there was nothing physical. So I got down to business.

It's only in the last few weeks that he has really started to produce some good work. This is only after me recognising though that he was doing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to avoid going straight. I literally had to lengthen my stirupps a couple of holes (and I ride quite long anyway) and litterally wrap my legs around the little git, use every single atom of my core strength and lower leg to keep him straight and going forward into the contact. FINALLY then he started to use his back end, his back came up (I was praying he wasn't pooing lol but he wasn't and isn't :D) he felt completely straight and dropped into the lovliest, softest outline, allowing me to dictate the roundness and also the pace totally. THIS is this horses best I'm sure. Also, before I don't think I was keeping a consistent enough contact with him and felt like I had to 'give' if you like every couple of strides for him. Whereas these last few weeks it's been a consistent and firm but gentle contact I've been asking him to work into, no with no lenience or leway on my behalf. I just need to get it more consistent and get the canter more balanced and sorted.

But at 12 I wonder has he ever really been made to go completely forward and STRAIGHT?! As my god, he really has all the evasions going. I have to be COMPLETELY on the ball at all times as the second I switch off he pushes/falls out somewhere and we lose the niceness almost instantly. He finds it hard and it's almost alien to him? And at 12 I wonder how much better he can get.

But yes, point of the long winded post was that forward, straight, consistent contact etc DOES achieve a lovely 'outline' and I agree with posters who have said that it is a lot more complex with an older horse, because it really is.
 

Halfstep

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Summerstars, you make a good point! :)

Basically, riding correctly is hard work. The whole, ride your horse forward and straight malarky, only works if you ride properly, sitting correctly, in balance, and using your body in alignment. That is why so many horses can spend years going around in circles with their heads in the air and their backs hollow! Because some riders think that "all" they have to do is send it forward and eventually - by majik - the thing will drop its head. and all will be sweetness and light. Not at all. You have to use your body and ride the damned horse, and it isn't always pretty at all. And if the rider is crooked, or riding with locked arms, or stiff wrists, or drawn up legs, or whatever, it ain't gonna happen. ;)
 

Caol Ila

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In what little instruction I've been able to watch (other people having lessons when my horse lived in a stable attached to an indoor ring, mainly), I see very little emphasis on rider position. And, as Halfstep said, so few people have access to true schoolmasters.

Most of the issues I have had with my horse were *my* issues. I can always find new and ingenious ways of blocking her movement, so it's an ongoing journey of discovery: "what am I doing wrong today?" The horse will tell you if you listen.

My husband's nieces, age nine and eleven, are in riding lessons and last time I saw them, they were telling me about their lessons. They said that a lot of the riding school ponies are "naughty" and when the pony is "naughty" and doesn't go, the kids are told to kick it, and keep kicking it. Here I thought, "there's the problem." These kids aren't being taught how sensitive horses are; how they can feel smallest adjustment of weight in the saddle or the lightest leg aid. They're being taught quite the opposite.
 

Mlini

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You have to use your body and ride the damned horse, and it isn't always pretty at all. And if the rider is crooked, or riding with locked arms, or stiff wrists, or drawn up legs, or whatever, it ain't gonna happen. ;)

This is exactly what happens with my boy. If he is ridden correctly, he just drops into an outline when asked. But if not ridden correctly, he will just go on the forehand, lean on your hands and drag his rear end along. He does struggle with the canter still, but that will come with time.

I have to always remember to ride longer, keep heels down, don't grip with my knees, sit up, shoulders back rather than falling into my bad habits of gripping with my knees, slouching, drawing my heels up and nagging with my legs. The difference in the horse is amazing!
 

siennamum

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Interestingly I gave someone a lesson yesterday who has been really strugglig to get horse to be forwards. She has been trained for many years to sit on her bottom which put her continually off balance and made her hands restrictive, as well as encouraging her to continually grip with her thighs.

She rolled her hips forwards slightly which put her weight over her heels, opened her hips (with difficulty), raised and softened her hands and suddenly the horse is moving and happy to drop it's nose. The smallest tweaks can sometimes make the most enormous difference.

She needs to retrain her muscles now though and it is frustrating tha bad teaching has hindered her riding so much.
 

elliefiz

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Completely agree with you Summerstars The theory of a horse going forwrds will naturally take it into accepting a contact and moving in the correct frame doesnt always work. In my previous post I mentioned that my horse has been ridden by my trainers. With their correct position and the experience and indeed strength of body that comes with riding horses of all sorts every day for a living, they make it look very easy. For me its a different story. I find it such hard work and if i dont persist and be consistent his head goes up and i lose all control of his shoulders and it feels horrible. Trainer last night took my stirrups down 3 holes and said he would like to go 1 more in future so like you my legs are being really effective in moving horse forward. Its admirable your willing to put the work in. To be honest after my lesson last night Ive decided I need to get back the gym- I am aching today and absolutely worn out!
 

Spookywood

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This is exactly what happens with my boy. If he is ridden correctly, he just drops into an outline when asked. But if not ridden correctly, he will just go on the forehand, lean on your hands and drag his rear end along. He does struggle with the canter still, but that will come with time.

This is exactly the same as my mare. Our canter is also a work in progress and definitely the better and more balanced I ride (I'm the biggest part of our in progress status!) the better her canter is getting. It is hard work to ride properly but it so so so worth it when you can feel your horse going correctly and carrying themselves. Feels amazing, and no hauling or see sawing of the mouth required! :D
 

Booboos

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There are two traditional schools of thought on contact and acceptance of the bit. On the one hand, there is the German school (broadly described), whereby "balance" comes through motion - hence, send them forward into an elastic, accepting contact, keep them straight with a swinging back and asking the hind leg to step further under the body. The contact is established via the bridge of muscles from the impulsion created off the hind leg over the back to the hand. This is the most common theory that is followed (in better and worse ways ;)) by most riders in this country.

Then there is the "French" manner, which is based on the teachings of Baucher to some degree, and is followed today by Phillipe Karl, but also (believe it or not) in some aspects is found in Dutch riding. In this theory, the horse's balance comes first, and movement is second. The horse is taught at the halt to accept the bit, then at the walk, etc. Traditionally, the horses trained in this manner are hotbloods or Iberian horses (as per the Cadre Noir, or Nuno Olivera's school). The horse is encouraged to maintain an upright posture, and there is less an emphasis on the extended gaits and more on the collected. These horses are often allowed to be above the bit because the upright open posture is prized above all. The suppleness is not created through impulsion in the German manner, but through flexions and yielding to the hand (lightness). The modern Dutch emphasis on speed control and using a "baby trot" has a lot more in common with this way of riding than the German. They, however, added roundness of the neck and back in motion to the mix. But a lot of the ideas behind the Sjeff Janssen system can be traced back to Baucher.

In the end, the goal should be the same: a horse accepting the bit, with open, supple, straight gaits. The head should be slightly in front of the vertical or on the vertical in piaffe. But more importantly than the exact angle of the head (who rides with a protractor???!!), the horse should be even, supple and free in its movement. The problem with incorrectly applied theory (strangle hold on the bit, sawing, or conversely washing line reins and the fear to touch the horses' mouth) is that it creates uncomfortable, unhappy and often ultimately lame horses.

Once again completely spot on! Very clearly exlained!
 

TrasaM

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My husband's nieces, age nine and eleven, are in riding lessons and last time I saw them, they were telling me about their lessons. They said that a lot of the riding school ponies are "naughty" and when the pony is "naughty" and doesn't go, the kids are told to kick it, and keep kicking it. Here I thought, "there's the problem." These kids aren't being taught how sensitive horses are; how they can feel smallest adjustment of weight in the saddle or the lightest leg aid. They're being taught quite the opposite.

Sadly it's not just the little kids who are taught in this way. My first few months were the same. The poor horses were so used to it that it made little difference. So RI says 'squeeze with calf' nothing happens. Harder ..still nothing then give it a good ole boot! Synchronising kicks and learning rising trot is a difficult skill to master.:rolleyes: Frankly by the end I had no idea what exactly my legs were supposed to do. Luckily I was then allocated a horse who responds to the lightest touch so he soon sorted me out.:eek:
 

TrasaM

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Who said he would???!!! No one is advocating see-sawing, that is fundamentally incorrect in any "school".


Another point: very few riders in this country have the opportunity to learn to ride on an educated horse who can give them the feel of a correct contact. How can you teach a horse what is correct when you've never felt it yourself? :confused:

I have to know how something is supposed to feel so I can register it in my muscles and brain. I had a dressage lesson some months back and the horse immediately spotted that he had an idiot on his back so of course he did not play along. Half way through the lesson he forgot (I think) who was riding him and did the loveliest trot and canter for me. Until then I had no idea what exactly it would feel like.
 

Donnie Darco

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Forgive me if I'm being thick but ...

Anyone can make a horse drop its head into a false outline by fiddling with the reins (my friends horse will pop his head in a "pretty outline" position by this method - but he's not actually working from behind)

Unless the horse is working properly from behind - bringing hocks underneath, rounding the back, working the abdominal muscles - it cannot be called a true outline :confused:
 

Perfect_Pirouette

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Forgive me if I'm being thick but ...

Anyone can make a horse drop its head into a false outline by fiddling with the reins (my friends horse will pop his head in a "pretty outline" position by this method - but he's not actually working from behind)

Unless the horse is working properly from behind - bringing hocks underneath, rounding the back, working the abdominal muscles - it cannot be called a true outline :confused:

Yup, hence all the posts in this thread stating that it's not just a 'pretty head carriage' or fiddling with the reins that achieves a true 'outline' it comes from a foundation of many things including, forwardness (I would count working from behind in this as well as it meaning on the aids) straightness, balance, rhythm etc.
 

madhector

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See, I tend to teach a horse be accept the bit, this can be in halt to start with, then you can naturally move forwards to working forwards to a soft contact, obviously if you have issues with impulsion then you cannot achive this so they would have to be corrected first.

I like to be able to pick up the reins of any horse I train and instantly have a soft feel, without having to work at it. The horse then naturally works forwards into it as there is no resistance or confusion.
 

Donnie Darco

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Yup, hence all the posts in this thread stating that it's not just a 'pretty head carriage' or fiddling with the reins that achieves a true 'outline' it comes from a foundation of many things including, forwardness (I would count working from behind in this as well as it meaning on the aids) straightness, balance, rhythm etc.

Yeah sorry I rattled my own cage and then read all the replies!!! :rolleyes: doh!!!:D
 

tristar

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i think teaching a horse first to accept the bit in halt is dangerous ground, for me the outline should be the result of impulsion and is only possible during motion.

so many times the rider needs to change, as recently shown by a 19 year old horse who had never in her life been round, always hard and above the bit, ridden differently and suddenly her tremendous impulsion freed by the rider resulted in her offering a super outline with no lose of activity, in fact it was enhanced and unleashed if anything.
 

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This is such an interesting thread and I think I'm kind of caught between the two methods.
I was always taught that without impulsion the horse will never work in an outline/round/on the bit etc. yet at the same time I was taught feel first in halt, walk, trot then canter which almost seems to contradict the principles of having the horse forward and straight first.
I often feel if I'm having a lesson with an instructor there is pressure to achieve something and the horse should be on the bit as soon as possible. I've had lessons where we enter the arena walk on a loose rein for a few minutes then immediately I'm told to take up a contact and 'put the horse' on the bit, which to me doesn't seem right, I prefer to work in for a good 10-15mins in all paces with lots of transitions before really asking the horse to soften. I often find if you ask too strongly too soon the horse locks against you and you'll spend the rest of the session persuading it to relax again, where as if you give the horse time to work in they soften naturally without you having to fight them.
I also think, as has already been mentioned, the vast majority of people learn feel on horses which aren't school masters (I know I certainly did!) and so often the sawing or over active hands develop as a way to persuade a horse to work in an outline when it would normally fight to go round with its head in the air, which in time means the horse doesn't respond to a lighter contact causing it to almost need the fiddling hands to encourage it to soften and so the circle continues :(
 

Molly'sMama

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Hmmm well I had a lesson with a well-known instructor with a boy my age on a badly schooled cob and he recommended he half halted on the reins to encourage his outline but not sawing :)

penny to a pound their instructors are BHS trained through and through and have never competed, certainly not affiliated and certainly not successfully

Yes,my instructor is a successful competitor and doesnt really rcommend it, she prefers I my mare working soft and round first and a true outlin will follow.
 

TrasaM

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i think teaching a horse first to accept the bit in halt is dangerous ground, for me the outline should be the result of impulsion and is only possible during motion.

so many times the rider needs to change, as recently shown by a 19 year old horse who had never in her life been round, always hard and above the bit, ridden differently and suddenly her tremendous impulsion freed by the rider resulted in her offering a super outline with no lose of activity, in fact it was enhanced and unleashed if anything.

The ground work and also the repeat of same exercises in walk and trot is to get the horse to relax its jaw a d tberegore its neck. The bit is pulled upwards towards the poll not back against it's mouth. Likewise half halts and halts are also an upwards action from the elbow / hand. PK describes the pulling back action and applying forwards aids simultaneously as riding a bike with the brakes on. I think I've got that right but if nit I'm sure someone will correct me :)
 

siennamum

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The ground work and also the repeat of same exercises in walk and trot is to get the horse to relax its jaw a d tberegore its neck. The bit is pulled upwards towards the poll not back against it's mouth. Likewise half halts and halts are also an upwards action from the elbow / hand. PK describes the pulling back action and applying forwards aids simultaneously as riding a bike with the brakes on. I think I've got that right but if nit I'm sure someone will correct me :)

My current youngster dislikes contact against the bars of his mouth and tongue. I have had to adjust my contact to ensure I am using the bit in an upwards direction to act on the sides of his lips which he is perfectly happy with. It's been a real education.
 

Chloe..x

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I teach it as
1) Straight
2) On a rhythm
3) then going forward into a steady contact

I like to thin as the impulsion coming from the inside leg into the outside. As such the horse "has the inside rein" the rider has the outside. I find it extremely difficult to teach as most people won't know what they should be feeling/asking for. I often find me demo'ing to the rider to give them an idea helps
 

Jingleballs

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Very interesting thread and something I'm pondering at the moment.

It seems that the more I try and ask for softness/self carriage the less likely I am to get it.

If I ignore all I've been taught and ride my horse with a very soft contact and slightly longer rein he will swing and relax and soften BUT if find he still has problems bending and the second you ask for bend he'll tense up.

I've had several instructors over the years - my current eventing instructor encourages me to buzz or shake the rein when he locks his jaw - basically it's an exaggerated version of sponging the rein as that seems to mild for my horse to acknowledge.

My dressage instructor has me keep my hands wider and lower and focus on bending him by opening my hand out wide and almost to my knee and when the horse yields correctly I give him the rein back and a scratch on the neck to tell him that's what I want - this seems to work intermittently and I'm finding that once he does yield, when I go to ask again he tenses up even more which suggests that he's not understanding what I'm asking for.

My jumping instructor on the other hand, when we are doing our warm up on the flat, shouts at me for having my hands low and wide as she says we are just giving the shoulder somewhere to escape.

I find the whole thing very confusing and after a horrendous schooling session tonight I am feeling a bit lost with it all.

This thread is definitely helping though!
 

SpottyTB

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I'm having this issue with my mare atm, and i'm sad to say that i've slipped into the "sawing" method- however i'm fully aware i have and i'm stopping/getting lessons to stop...

The way my FIL is teaching me, is the outside rein is to slow the trot down - and i have to KEEP it slow but not lifeless, slow with lots of impulsion..
Inside leg and inside rein ask for the slight bend and to come down on the bit.
Inside rein is just asking, politely, shouldn't be able to see obvious movement, it's just a little "niggle" at the rein with plenty of inside leg to encourage the head carriage to come down and in...

I'm getting it out of her a few times, but it's hard work.. it's nice when she goes go down and in, as her stride lengthens and she feels more relaxed!

:)
 

AatHarv

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My current youngster dislikes contact against the bars of his mouth and tongue. I have had to adjust my contact to ensure I am using the bit in an upwards direction to act on the sides of his lips which he is perfectly happy with. It's been a real education.

Siennamum... This is really interesting as my baby seems to be really fussy with the contact, has a small mouth, and just dislikes it as you say. Annnd because he's my baby I make excuses for him so it could slightly be that too, but anyway... When you say you've 'adjusted your contact', how do you mean?
 

siennamum

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Siennamum... This is really interesting as my baby seems to be really fussy with the contact, has a small mouth, and just dislikes it as you say. Annnd because he's my baby I make excuses for him so it could slightly be that too, but anyway... When you say you've 'adjusted your contact', how do you mean?

All I am doing is carrying my hands higher & keeping them well in front of me , especially when asking for flexion and if he comes above the bit. The other thing I do to give an aid which is as light as possible is turn my inside hand over so my thumb is pointing into the centre.

I have spent ages trying to find a bit which he is happy with and he is very 'less is more', so either a simple french link or single link, with an eggbut and chunky mouthpiece.
 

Supanova

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Very interesting and informative thread!

I agree with all those that have said that the horse should be straight and working from behind and then it will naturally come into an outline, but I also agree with those that have said its horses for courses. I have two horses, one is a 5 year old who i have had since she was just broken. She is definitely in the first camp and will come into a lovely outline if i get her working correctly from beind and straight - no need at all for fiddling with the reins. However, my other horse is a 10 yr old who i have had since she was 6. In the first few years, i tried to teach her to be forward into the contact, but we weren't making any progress. Yes she would go forward into a light contact but she wouldn't come up through her back and just ran round on her forehand, gawping at everything around her. Recently i have started taking a much stronger contact and doing lots of flexing with my hand and the results have been dramatic. Yes, it feels a little like i am a puppet master and it doesn't seem classically correct, but she comes up through her back and goes into a correct outline and I can then lighten and soften the rein and push her forward into it. Without the use of the hand I would never get this result. Perhaps this is because she wasn't taught correctly from the outset and there have been a few physical niggles along the way, but it does say to me that there are different methods for different horses.

On a final point, i think the most effective way to get a horse into an outline is to use your core and nothing to do with either hand or leg. I have been reading Centered Riding by Sally Swift and simply thinking of centering yourself at your core and breathing correctly has a major impact on both my horses and makes them go in an outline. As others have said, the seat and balance of the rider is so important to the overall picture.
 

kerilli

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On a final point, i think the most effective way to get a horse into an outline is to use your core and nothing to do with either hand or leg. I have been reading Centered Riding by Sally Swift and simply thinking of centering yourself at your core and breathing correctly has a major impact on both my horses and makes them go in an outline. As others have said, the seat and balance of the rider is so important to the overall picture.

This. I think the way you use and control (and can actually sense what you are doing with) your seat, legs and hands (in that order) are absolutely crucial. it's not what you do as much as how you do it, or at least 50/50, i suspect.
As for what I do, it varies depending on the horse's age, build, experience, previous training, natural elasticity and athleticism (how much one can ask), and temperament. It's pretty impossible (and unfair) to say 'i do it like this' because that might not suit a particular horse at all at that time. e.g. for a mare who overbends, flexes at poll but doesn't give at jaw, and dips behind the contact (and i'm sure a lot of people would think looks great because her neck is beautifully arched, wow, she's 'on the bit!!!') my trainer had a very very specific answer (just typed it out for someone on my current thread), but for a horse who pokes its nose, the response would be pretty different.
 

Caol Ila

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To those who said it's not easy to ride a horse straight and balanced.... yes, I know! Far easier said than done. A lot of the issues I have had with Gypsum over the years come from the fact that she is a big, bouncy mover and I find that my body wants to lock up in all kinds of weird and useless ways, kind of a defensive reaction to being jolted around by her huge trot. Plus, while she brings her hind legs all the way under her body naturally, she's a bit on the long side so there's a lot of horse that needs to be contained. The only way forward, really, is to be bloody fit, strong enough to maintain your position in spite of all the bouncing, but at the same time, still following and flowing with the horse's movement. She also has the view that if I'm bracing, she doesn't go. I think some days she says, "You're riding like crap. No engagement for you."

BabyBear, I find it worrying that you said this: "If I ignore all I've been taught and ride my horse with a very soft contact and slightly longer rein he will swing and relax and soften...." Is a soft contact just not taught these days?! :confused:

In this thread and your other one asking about bend, you have not said anything about using the inside leg or your outside aids. Just talked about using the reins. When I ask a horse for bend, I think of it bending its ribcage around my inside leg and bringing its inside hind leg underneath its body. In the pic below, you can see that her inside hind is nearly on the same track as her outside fore.

Photo214.jpg


That is where bend comes from and it's your inside leg which engages the horse's inside hind leg. Your outside rein is steady and has slightly more contact than the inside rein. Your outside leg tells the horse where the edge of the circle should be. The inside rein asks for a little bit of flexion in the jaw but should not be your primary aid. This is why, on US lower level dressage tests at any rate, there is a movement where you have to move your inside hand forward so the rein is loose for three or four strides while on a twenty meter circle. It demonstrates that the horse is correctly bent into the outside aids and not being pulled around by the inside rein.

It is very much part of the straightness and engagement issues that have been discussed earlier in this thread, as bend allows the horse to be straight and engaged while on a curving line (that's why you do it). If you bring the head around alone, you make the horse crooked and unbalanced.

Also, make sure you're not getting in his way. If you are bracing in your back, your hips, your arms, anywhere, you can block that inside hind from coming through. This can = confused and grumpy horse, since you're asking him to do something, but another part of your body (unbeknownst to you) is saying, "No." Supanova mentioned Sally Swift's Centred Riding... I second this recommendation. She used to give clinics a barn I used to board at. Very rider focused, thinking about how your body influences a horse, in negatives and positive ways. Can we really expect our horses to go in balanced self-carriage when we're falling all over the place?

When I've ridden greenies, I have used the opening rein to suggest flexion through the jaw. Not pulling, just bringing my hand to the inside as though opening a door. Pat, release, when the horse does it. By the time I'm riding said greenie, he's had a lot of groundwork and has a solid of grasp of yielding to pressure, so this is not a challenging lesson for him. Then turns on the forehand, serpentines, and leg yields, both on the straight and on a circle, are some of the things I use to show the horse what the inside leg means. I would not ride with my hands wide and low. While you can force a horse to put its head down when you do this, I think it sends confusing signals to the horse and it also changes your centre of gravity and balance -- throws you forward, makes the horse fall on its forehand and worst of all, you lose any ability to have a soft, following contact.

Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned teaching the horse to soften while standing still. I do this as well. I think it's my natural horsemanship background coming through. I think it just solidifies the whole soften to hand concept. However, unless the horse is fit and trained, I don't ask them to move off in a frame. Usually, just before I dismount at the end of a ride, I ask the horse to soften. These days I ask for softening into a rein back. Then I jump off. Horse is now rewarded.
 

Halfstep

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It might be worth looking at different types of contact and how it reflects in the body of the horse, and in the level of training.
These are all of me, and I'm in no way putting myself up as an ideal!!! Just some examples.

First - warm up photo on an Advanced level horse, stretching towards the bridle, face just in front of the vertical, in balance but not in collection:
321677_10150290292866693_3594502_n.jpg


And in trot, same idea, horse is straight and taking the contact forward:
317069_10150290292376693_2128625_n.jpg


The same horse in collected trot in a more uphill frame:

59072_434768731692_139980_n.jpg

and in competition frame:

20473_255938921692_6506765_n.jpg


And finally, to compare, the same horse as a 5 yr old at Novice level:
2645_57764296692_4027739_n.jpg


I'd argue that the horse is on the bit in all these photos, but the "outline" is very different at each point, which is reflected in what the body of the horse is doing and its level of training and musculature. :p
 

kerilli

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BabyBear, I find it worrying that you said this: "If I ignore all I've been taught and ride my horse with a very soft contact and slightly longer rein he will swing and relax and soften...." Is a soft contact just not taught these days?! :confused:

depends who you go to... but mostly, no. it seems to be a very strong, holding contact that's taught generally, and also that, bluntly, we see winning at top levels.
i taught someone years ago who didn't have great balance and, when she lost her balance, i kept saying 'grab the mane not the reins!'... she told me her previous instructor (who had just won a Young Instructor of the Year award) was adamant that if your contact is intermittent because of rider balance issues, it is much better for the horse if it is too strong than too soft. I was gobsmacked - basically saying it's fine to balance yourself with the reins. HOW can a decent seat and balance ever be developed like that... ?! yet this instructor was lauded!
 

siennamum

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Very interesting thread and something I'm pondering at the moment.

It seems that the more I try and ask for softness/self carriage the less likely I am to get it.

If I ignore all I've been taught and ride my horse with a very soft contact and slightly longer rein he will swing and relax and soften BUT if find he still has problems bending and the second you ask for bend he'll tense up.

I've had several instructors over the years - my current eventing instructor encourages me to buzz or shake the rein when he locks his jaw - basically it's an exaggerated version of sponging the rein as that seems to mild for my horse to acknowledge.

My dressage instructor has me keep my hands wider and lower and focus on bending him by opening my hand out wide and almost to my knee and when the horse yields correctly I give him the rein back and a scratch on the neck to tell him that's what I want - this seems to work intermittently and I'm finding that once he does yield, when I go to ask again he tenses up even more which suggests that he's not understanding what I'm asking for.

My jumping instructor on the other hand, when we are doing our warm up on the flat, shouts at me for having my hands low and wide as she says we are just giving the shoulder somewhere to escape.

I find the whole thing very confusing and after a horrendous schooling session tonight I am feeling a bit lost with it all.

This thread is definitely helping though!

Maybe your horse just needs a little more 'hand holding'. It sounds as if he is nice and soft and relaxed till you actually pick up a contact and ask for connection, then you get resistance.
In your place I would work on circles, create a firm outside rein, carried reasonably high, and open your inside hand to indicate bend, then turn your hand over so your fingernails are pointing upwards, thumb in - not completely just half way. I would't really soften the outside rein masively, not a strong contact. but imagine if horse were in side reins, he would have to soften to them not the other way round.
I would then work on circles and be insistent till horse softens when that happens I would soften a little in return, so he understands. Of courseyou have to be insistent they are off the inside leg, and forwards from the outside leg.
 
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