Riding in a double if you don't need a double.

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

For showing and/or dressage reasons, what is your opinion on riding in a pelham or double if the horse doesn't 'need' one, and is usually ridden in a Waterford snaffle?
Could it have an on effect on the horse when going back to the snaffle? Or on future ridden work?

 

[AdorableAlice]

For showing and/or dressage reasons, what is your opinion on riding in a pelham or double if the horse doesn't 'need' one, and is usually ridden in a Waterford snaffle?
Could it have an on effect on the horse when going back to the snaffle? Or on future ridden work?

Need has nothing to do with it. A horse should be schooled using the correct scales of training to eventually go in a double bridle.

 

[Auslander]

Need has nothing to do with it. A horse should be schooled using the correct scales of training to eventually go in a double bridle.

What she said! A double isn't a "need" thing.

I'd be more bothered about a horse that needs a waterford for it's normal work, than a horse that is ridden in a double bridle!

 

[Red-1]

If the horse is trained correctly before using a double, and then ridden correctly in one, then I have had no problem in reverting to a snaffle.

When helping people who have used a double or pelham to 'hold' a horse, or indeed pull its head in, then it is a long road to having the horse go sweetly in a snaffle again IME.

 

[be positive]

Need has nothing to do with it. A horse should be schooled using the correct scales of training to eventually go in a double bridle.

As AA says it has nothing to do with needing it, although a horse that "needs" a waterford will not be able to compete in one in dressage or the show ring anyway, I have never had an issue with any of mine taking to either a double or pelham depending on the conformation of their mouth, they have all shown, dressaged possibly evented the same season and rarely school in anything other than a dressage legal snaffle once they have got used to the action and I am happy with the bitting arrangement.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

As AA says it has nothing to do with needing it, although a horse that "needs" a waterford will not be able to compete in one in dressage or the show ring anyway, I have never had an issue with any of mine taking to either a double or pelham depending on the conformation of their mouth, they have all shown, dressaged possibly evented the same season and rarely school in anything other than a dressage legal snaffle once they have got used to the action and I am happy with the bitting arrangement.

Okay perhaps need was the wrong word. I was referring more to using a double on a horse for competition reasons, when it is able to be schooled in a snaffle.

With regards to the Waterford, I am a firm believer in that a bit (within reason) is only as severe as the hands that are on the other end of it. He does not 'need' one, but he is happy working in it, likes the flexibility of the mouth piece and is currently producing the best work he has ever done.

I am interested in opinions because the comments I received in both classes I did at the show before is that a horse of his type should really only be seen in a double. I am not considering just sticking one on him for a chin to chest reaction, much the opposite. I am worried that the leverage may produce this reaction rather than the lovely low stretchy work he has finally started producing.

 

[ihatework]

I think from your comments you possibly don't understand the use of a double bridle and therefore possibly shouldn't use one. The only reason you would get a chin to chest reaction would be if the jockey on top caused it.
I'm not anti waterfords, buti think you need to bear in mind they can give a very false contact (or lack of) Id be more concerned about that than moving into a double

 

[be positive]

If he is working correctly up to the hand from the leg in a snaffle then adding a weymouth to a similar snaffle, although it would not be a waterford, should be straightforward provided they have enough room to take it, the rider then rides exactly the same to the top rein and barely touches the bottom one, you then gradually pick them up as their schooling and ability increases, you should be aiming for them to be very light in the hand and certainly not dropping behind the bridle with their chin on their chest, top horses carry themselves in self carriage and tend to be relatively open in front, except possibly if they get a bit carried away.

If they are not able to take 2 bits then try a pelham again aiming to ride on the top rein with little to no contact on the bottom, use a leather curb chain to make it a little softer.

If you do open classes then most judges will expect to see them in a double as it does usually enhance the way they go if used properly.

 

[Goldenstar]

My horses ( except the youngest )all can go between doubles and true snaffles ( not a waterford I have nothing I would to ride daily in a severe bit like that )and swop between them .
It's normal for high level many dressage horses to work part of the time in snaffles and doubles .
Horse once their training is in place usually accept doubles very happily however I would worry that a horse who is ridden in a Waterford all the time does not have the basics in place in the first place .
Showing is about having the most correct ,nicest looking ,best trained horse the ability to work happily in the double is part of that .

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

My horses ( except the youngest )all can go between doubles and true snaffles ( not a waterford I have nothing I would to ride daily in a severe bit like that )and swop between them .
It's normal for high level many dressage horses to work part of the time in snaffles and doubles .
Horse once their training is in place usually accept doubles very happily however I would worry that a horse who is ridden in a Waterford all the time does not have the basics in place in the first place .
Showing is about having the most correct ,nicest looking ,best trained horse the ability to work happily in the double is part of that .

Jake has previously been over bitted, he came in a two ring and the leverage caused him to swap between a giraffe due to him being green and chin to chest. I took this off and swapped to a loose ring snaffle to encourage him to work into the bit and be happy to push from his back end and take the contact forward. As he became stronger and developed the muscle to hold himself a little better he then started to lean terribly on my hands, and I then put him in a Waterford and he really does go well in it. He has quite a large tongue and not a whole lot of room in his mouth, so the flexibility in the mouthpiece suits him, and he likes to be able to shift it around slightly. He also responded very well to me being able to drop the contact slightly when he leant, rather than pull back at him as he would then revert to chin to chest. I tried to put him back in the snaffle but he just didn't like it, very chompy and head shaky. Changed him back and happy horse again (yes his teeth are fine).

Now that everyone knows the reason that I have him in a Waterford, I am more than happy to be told I am wrong, or given other ideas. I just found that the bit I intended to be a transition bit is the one he has been happiest in.

 

[Wheels]

I understand why you have gone the route you have but if you are wanting to show, wanting to dressage or to really get the refinement that can be got through using a double then you need to re-educate the horse to a more standard mouthpiece snaffle.

If the horse is leaning he is on the forehand = not very much to do with the bit but rather the lack of hind end engagement.

Once re-schooled to the snaffle you could add a curb bit otherwise a horse like this will be just confused!

 

[PuzzlePiece]

I understand why you have gone the route you have but if you are wanting to show, wanting to dressage or to really get the refinement that can be got through using a double then you need to re-educate the horse to a more standard mouthpiece snaffle.

If the horse is leaning he is on the forehand = not very much to do with the bit but rather the lack of hind end engagement.

Once re-schooled to the snaffle you could add a curb bit otherwise a horse like this will be just confused!

Completely agree with this. I'm not disputing your reasons for using a Waterford. However in my opinion these bits are more suited to the hunting field for brakes. Any horse should be properly schooled in a snaffle and any bit change is usually a quick fix by the owner because they hit a schooling issue they don't know how to deal with. With young or inexperienced horses they need to learn how to hold themselves to get the correct contact and outline. There will be several phases to this, you described him being heavy in your hands, again he will be learning and this need training in the correct way. Personally I'd recommend getting a good instructor who can teach you how to school in a snaffle and then progress into a double. As others have said initially there is no real difference for using a double other than a second bit in the mouth. Gradually the horse will get used to it and you can add a little pressure to the second rein.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Completely agree with this. I'm not disputing your reasons for using a Waterford. However in my opinion these bits are more suited to the hunting field for brakes. Any horse should be properly schooled in a snaffle and any bit change is usually a quick fix by the owner because they hit a schooling issue they don't know how to deal with. With young or inexperienced horses they need to learn how to hold themselves to get the correct contact and outline. There will be several phases to this, you described him being heavy in your hands, again he will be learning and this need training in the correct way. Personally I'd recommend getting a good instructor who can teach you how to school in a snaffle and then progress into a double. As others have said initially there is no real difference for using a double other than a second bit in the mouth. Gradually the horse will get used to it and you can add a little pressure to the second rein.

Okay, I understand what you're saying. I do currently have lessons with a wonderful instructor every week. I will have a look at fnding a more standard mouth piece that suits his mouth confo.

 

[Casey76]

Waterford's are really nasty bits. The bobbles slide over the bars when direct reining and can cause extreme pain. Depending on how the bobbles are set up, they can also grab and pinch the tongue.

 

[rachk89]

I kind of see what OP means in a way.

My horse just has a standard double jointed snaffle that is similar to a NS team up. He goes totally fine in it and is light and goes into a contact on his own. You push him forward from behind and he does the rest. He rounds nicely and can hold himself although he is young and weak so needs encouragement obviously.

Eventually once he is strong and better trained and at higher levels he will be made to use a double bridle for dressage. I don't quite see the point of that when he can do the work in a snaffle. All top horses can do the work they do in a snaffle. Guess the reaction you get is quicker with a double but it isn't necessary.

That is what i think she means. It's not necessary. But it's part of the rules so is required.

 

[PuzzlePiece]

Okay, I understand what you're saying. I do currently have lessons with a wonderful instructor every week. I will have a look at fnding a more standard mouth piece that suits his mouth confo.

If he likes the bit movement you could try a snaffle with a lozenge or a French link. I'm sure your instructor will help you out and might have few bits you can try

 

[spacefaer]

Rachk89 - a double bridle refines the aids and makes them more subtle, when used correctly, at the higher levels.

When you have ridden a Grand Prix dressage horse, and he is poised on your aids, for the lightest touch from your leg, seat or hand, using snaffle becomes a blunt instrument. It is the most awesome feeling, and so far from the ride you get on younger/less trained horses that you can't compare the two.

 

[rachk89]

Rachk89 - a double bridle refines the aids and makes them more subtle, when used correctly, at the higher levels.

When you have ridden a Grand Prix dressage horse, and he is poised on your aids, for the lightest touch from your leg, seat or hand, using snaffle becomes a blunt instrument. It is the most awesome feeling, and so far from the ride you get on younger/less trained horses that you can't compare the two.

I know it is more refined but i can see OPs point too. She doesn't feel it is necessary for her horse to have one.

 

[Auslander]

Rachk89 - a double bridle refines the aids and makes them more subtle, when used correctly, at the higher levels.

When you have ridden a Grand Prix dressage horse, and he is poised on your aids, for the lightest touch from your leg, seat or hand, using snaffle becomes a blunt instrument. It is the most awesome feeling, and so far from the ride you get on younger/less trained horses that you can't compare the two.

This! Until you've experienced it, you won't appreciate the reason for a double bridle at the higher levels. Advanced horses can and do work in snaffles at home - at competitions,where they are obliged to use doubles - no-one feels like they are being forced to do so by protocol. Slightly different with showing, as the way of going is not really affected by what's in the horses mouth. However, it's a sport with traditions and rules that anyone who chooses to show chooses to accept. A double bridle or pelham is correct headwear for a show horse - simple as.

I hate it when doubles are in the same "box" as pelhams btw. Very different beasts...

 

[Goldenstar]

Nothing beats riding a trained horse in a double , the power and refinement are just the best thing ever .

 

[spacefaer]

I know it is more refined but i can see OPs point too. She doesn't feel it is necessary for her horse to have one.

It isn't "necessary" for the OPs horse to have one. Currently, the horse is not at an appropriate level of training to wear a double bridle, and as an instructor, I wouldn't be recommending one. However, as a dressage horse, once he has gone up the relevant scales of training, then she may well find it an advantage (for those reasons I and other posters have listed) to put her horse in one.

If she wishes to show, then it is only required by the governing bodies at a certain standard of showing. Local shows, she can wear whatever she likes. By the sound of the OP's posts, the horse's level of working is not such that she would be considering taking him in such classes. To be honest, he doesn't sound ready to compete.

 

[Fiona]

What about a double jointed snaffle with a copper lozenge in the middle. . Theres a nice one in the ride away catalogue.

I've used a waterford btw, for hunting brakes. Never tried to use it otherwise to be fair.

Fiona

 

[Goldenstar]

It's not necessary for OP to show her horse.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I kind of see what OP means in a way.

My horse just has a standard double jointed snaffle that is similar to a NS team up. He goes totally fine in it and is light and goes into a contact on his own. You push him forward from behind and he does the rest. He rounds nicely and can hold himself although he is young and weak so needs encouragement obviously.

Eventually once he is strong and better trained and at higher levels he will be made to use a double bridle for dressage. I don't quite see the point of that when he can do the work in a snaffle. All top horses can do the work they do in a snaffle. Guess the reaction you get is quicker with a double but it isn't necessary.

That is what i think she means. It's not necessary. But it's part of the rules so is required.

Oh dear, do you have any concept of schooling and making a horse. Do you understand what 'contact' actually is, if your horse is holding himself he is working incorrectly. Before making your horse wear a double bridle please research how each component works and why it works. It is you that needs to be strong to have the core strength to ride from from your seat/leg to the softest of hands.

 

[GlamourDol]

Eventually once he is strong and better trained and at higher levels he will be made to use a double bridle for dressage. I don't quite see the point of that when he can do the work in a snaffle. All top horses can do the work they do in a snaffle. Guess the reaction you get is quicker with a double but it isn't necessary.

That is what i think she means. It's not necessary. But it's part of the rules so is required.

Not true! Under BD rules you can now go all the way to GP in a snaffle. It is only if you go and compete under FEI rules do you have to wear a double.
There are plenty of bitting options with the Weymouth and Bradoon so it should be possible to find a combination that the horse accepts and likes.

 

[GlamourDol]

Oh dear, do you have any concept of schooling and making a horse. Do you understand what 'contact' actually is, if your horse is holding himself he is working incorrectly. Before making your horse wear a double bridle please research how each component works and why it works. It is you that needs to be strong to have the core strength to ride from from your seat/leg to the softest of hands.

Wish HHO had a like button.

 

[rachk89]

Oh dear, do you have any concept of schooling and making a horse. Do you understand what 'contact' actually is, if your horse is holding himself he is working incorrectly. Before making your horse wear a double bridle please research how each component works and why it works. It is you that needs to be strong to have the core strength to ride from from your seat/leg to the softest of hands.

So I am wrong that my horse should be working from behind, correctly, and holding himself correctly, and I should be holding him up all the time and constantly asking for a contact?

Dunno if we're just not understanding each other, but it was always my understanding that if you are holding the horse up the entire time, you're putting an awful lot of work into not very much. Plus all thats going to happen is you will tire yourself out from holding the horse together all of the time when you could be making him work for it.

 

[rachk89]

Not true! Under BD rules you can now go all the way to GP in a snaffle. It is only if you go and compete under FEI rules do you have to wear a double.
There are plenty of bitting options with the Weymouth and Bradoon so it should be possible to find a combination that the horse accepts and likes.

Ah I thought it was under BD rules, my mistake there.

 

[be positive]

So I am wrong that my horse should be working from behind, correctly, and holding himself correctly, and I should be holding him up all the time and constantly asking for a contact?

Dunno if we're just not understanding each other, but it was always my understanding that if you are holding the horse up the entire time, you're putting an awful lot of work into not very much. Plus all thats going to happen is you will tire yourself out from holding the horse together all of the time when you could be making him work for it.

If there is no contact when your horse is holding himself "correctly" then there is no connection therefore it is incorrect, contact should be maintained consistently by soft hands, it has nothing to do with holding the horse up they do that themselves, the elastic contact you want the horse taking is soft and yielding, ready to react to the slightest touch, anything less than soft is usually a false outline with the horse behind leg and hand.
A horse becomes lighter in front as it takes more weight behind and develops the strength to carry itself, a young horse usually is on the forehand to a degree and the rider needs to accept it cannot be really light until it's training level allows it to carry itself more on the hind quarters and less on the forehand, getting the front light with no contact is making a short cut that will probably cause some training issues down the line.

 

[rachk89]

If there is no contact when your horse is holding himself "correctly" then there is no connection therefore it is incorrect, contact should be maintained consistently by soft hands, it has nothing to do with holding the horse up they do that themselves, the elastic contact you want the horse taking is soft and yielding, ready to react to the slightest touch, anything less than soft is usually a false outline with the horse behind leg and hand.
A horse becomes lighter in front as it takes more weight behind and develops the strength to carry itself, a young horse usually is on the forehand to a degree and the rider needs to accept it cannot be really light until it's training level allows it to carry itself more on the hind quarters and less on the forehand, getting the front light with no contact is making a short cut that will probably cause some training issues down the line.

I know that but AdorableAlice said if my horse is holding himself that is wrong. You have just said what I think is right that he should be holding himself. I never said that i get him working right then just drop the reins and leave him to it.

Think this has just been a miscommunication thing.