Riding in side reins - do you/should you/never?

I agree with Kerilli.
If you must use something, what about having running reins, and ride holding them as though they were the curb rein on a double? Then you can use them as a back up when he resists, but release them if needs be.
Of course you have to be happy riding with double reins...
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Basically yes that is what I was told - that maintaining the constant contact with him whilst keeping enough leg on to make him work into the bridle is something I wouldn't be able to achieve as the horse blocks so constantly that in a fight I will have to give up before he accepts any contact. I am not suggesting that I am physically trying to force him into anything - similarly though surely to ride there is an element of actually riding rather than sitting pretty and being a passenger. What I am asking for is advice on how best to keep him working forward (sticks are no use as he overreacts for two or three strides then gives up and I don't particularly want to have to ride in spurs all the time schooling) whilst continuing to ask him to work correctly in front. I'm not wanting rollkur here - just would prefer it if his head was in the same country as the rest of him! I'm not doing the side reins thing whilst in the saddle regardless of the advice given - I will try changing his bit as also suggested to a hanging snaffle to give a bit more feel in his mouth but if anyone has any other suggestions they'd be most welcome.
 
I understand the responses and agree with what has been said, however a friend who has had a lot of problems with her six year old mare sought help from a dressage rider who rides at a very high level. Under advice and supervision she has been riding in side reins and this has greatly improved the horse. Admittedly this is in an indoor school, never hacked out but it has brought about an amazing transformation. I have recently ridden the horse a couple of times and I cannot believe the difference. Would it perhaps not be fairer to say that this is the same as other training aids in that if it is used properly under the correct supervision then it may work but in the wrong hands it could be dangerous?
 
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Basically yes that is what I was told - that maintaining the constant contact with him whilst keeping enough leg on to make him work into the bridle is something I wouldn't be able to achieve as the horse blocks so constantly that in a fight I will have to give up before he accepts any contact. I am not suggesting that I am physically trying to force him into anything - similarly though surely to ride there is an element of actually riding rather than sitting pretty and being a passenger. What I am asking for is advice on how best to keep him working forward (sticks are no use as he overreacts for two or three strides then gives up and I don't particularly want to have to ride in spurs all the time schooling) whilst continuing to ask him to work correctly in front. I'm not wanting rollkur here - just would prefer it if his head was in the same country as the rest of him! I'm not doing the side reins thing whilst in the saddle regardless of the advice given - I will try changing his bit as also suggested to a hanging snaffle to give a bit more feel in his mouth but if anyone has any other suggestions they'd be most welcome.

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I don't understand what your professional meant, and I have a slight suspicion that you don't really either?

I never think about the horse's head and neck, or you can end up doing the death stare at their poll, hunching forward with steelly arms braced against the contact.

Obviously, the horse responds in kind and goes round looking like a llama on acid, with his hocks trailing and his back hollowed.
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I think the key is timing - knowing when to soften and give, but also when he blocks you, that's when you need to use leg to push him forward, rather than hand to draw him tighter against you.

It sounds as though using a whip on him is working fine - use your leg once, then again, if he ignores, smack him at the same time as your leg aid, just behind the leg, and let him fly forwards if he wants, even if he canters, try not to get left behind, and don't stop him, instead say 'Good boy!'. Once he settles, use your leg again - when he responds, give the rein and praise him.

I don't know what bit he is in now, but try a milder one. Also some lunge work (with side reins) and lots of circles, turns, changes of pace, transitions, and some lateral work might help.

Or maybe taking up golf or sailing might be easier?
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I think I understood okay - the horse is not forward off the leg and blocks the contact as well. Double edged sword - getting him going forward is my first priority - however, even when he is going forward he is not accepting of a contact. Thus I think the professional was suggesting that by introducing a gadget, for want of a better word, we could introduce him to both moving forward and accepting a contact at the same time. I have spent 4 weeks at a time riding with schooling whip in each hand and tickling behind the leg when he is unresponsive to leg aid only - he still doesn't get it. He's in a loose ring peanut snaffle - can't think of a milder bit but if anyone has any suggestions then please say. I am well aware of my limitations as a rider, but the horse does absolutely nothing to help so perhaps you're right and sailing or golf is the way forward.
 
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I am not suggesting that I am physically trying to force him into anything - similarly though surely to ride there is an element of actually riding rather than sitting pretty and being a passenger.

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Yes, but forcing has nothing to do with it, as you say.

You can be a polite passenger who asks nicely and gets what they want. this is my ideal, and it is achievable. a truly well-schooled horse is easy to ride, rider doesn't need to hold front end and drive back end etc with strength. i like the horse to be doing more than me! dressage is dancing together... if it comes down to strength we're all lost, horse weighs 10x more than us and is at least 10x as strong...

tbh i'd try what i suggested above, or a more Classical instructor.
 
Assuming that you haven't already taken up golf...
I am a simple soul, and if I were you, I'd work on getting him forwards from my leg first.
I wouldn't 'tickle' either - I'd smack if he doesn't move off the leg when I asked. Sit tall, ask for forwards, and then let him fly round the school if he wants.
If you listen to the riding theories, the horse has to engage his hindquarters, before he can lighten his forehand, and thus soften into 'an outline'.
If he really doesn't accept any contact, then use side reins on the lunge to teach him to stretch forward into a contact.
Or, as suggested above, find a new instructor.
If you have to post asking for opinions on your instructor's opinions, it might be a sign you lack faith in them?
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I think your boy is alot like hattie
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Hates going forward and when she is forward, prefers her head up in the air
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I've been lunging Hattie everyday for the past month (except Sundays, we like our days off) just doing LOTS of walk/trot transistions, trot/canter transistions on a 20 meter circle. I've been trying to get her working long and low so she can stretch out her muscles and chomp at the bit so she is relaxed BUT is still moving forward.

Our hard work is paying off now as she is starting to come into a soft frame when I ride her (and that's side saddle as well!). I also reallized today while schooling, that I've been unconsiously blocking her with my hands making her evade my contact and put her head up in the air.
When I realize that I'm doing this, I just softened my hands a bit (kind of stop clenching and relax my arms while moving them a tiny bit forward if that makes sense?), then she comes down. I do this while tapping her with my leg and offisde cane to keep her moving forward.

It was kind of a lightbulb moment today.

I ride Hattie in the same bit as you so I would keep yours in that and do LOTS of transistions on the lunge to soften him and yet keep him moving forward.

If this numpty can 2get it", then you can too.

BTW, I sail as well and riding is MUCH nicer IMHO
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Well this lesson was a one off with a professional dressage coach who rides at quite a high level - if you check previous posts you'll find out what I meant. I do feel I got something out of the lesson and was pleased with how it went but I didn't feel comfortable with the ride in side reins idea (what he did in the lesson was to tie my running martingale to my noseband - thus creating a standing martingale effect). Hence the post looking for alternatives. Out hacking the horse isn't lazy and he certainly engages the hindlegs a lot more now than he did before - he just still doesn't want to accept any contact up front. I'll give the lunging in side reins a go and see how accepting he is of that (probably only serve to confirm that it's cause I can't ride rather than anything wrong with the horse) - so golf it will be
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JmB, just because it was a 'professional dressage coach' doesn't mean that what he said was right for you or your horse, sorry!
as for turning martingale into standing martingale for a flatwork session.... hmmm.
an instructor who will go back to basics, sort out the cause of the problem, and help you both to solve it, is the answer, not one who suggests 'quick fixes' and convinces you that you're not good enough, and that your horse is lazy and difficult!
 
I can guess who you mean, but in my experience, the talented riders don't always make the best teachers - things come naturally to them whereas some of us need step-by-step instructions (in my case I need a pictorial guide).
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Tell them to go back to basics, side reins used correctly on the lunge for short periods of time, if they are the answer to to problem, so they can see exactly what the horse/pony is doing, movement wise.

Horses have to learn to carry themselves, adjusting the way they move, being supple, fit and using differnt muscles etc putting side reins on and riding the horse is like asking joe bloggs to do the splits, your going do yourself an injury, the horse will find it extremely uncomfortable let alone dangerous.
 
I would never ride in side reins but I was shocked when I went to a Pony Club rally in the summer and a few children had them on. It was explained to me that the children didn't have the strength to stop their ponies from grazing (I thought that was what grass reins were for) I was very suprised as I wouldn't have thought the Pony Club would have allowed this to go on at a rally.
 
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I would never ride in side reins but I was shocked when I went to a Pony Club rally in the summer and a few children had them on. It was explained to me that the children didn't have the strength to stop their ponies from grazing (I thought that was what grass reins were for) I was very suprised as I wouldn't have thought the Pony Club would have allowed this to go on at a rally.

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That doesnt suprise me, many lead rein ponies and first ridden ponies are warmed up like this and no doubt schooled at home, thats why the go round like little chocolate box ponies and legs going 100 to the dozen!
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Hmm, can I ask, what is the difference between riding them in side reins and having a lunge lesson on them with side reins on? The horse is no less likely to trip or rear on the lunge than he is off but no one thinks twice about putting them on for a lunge lesson , even acceptable in BHS exams. Just wondering?
Also, may well know training centres use them on horses used for schoolmaster lessons, not on the lunge.
 
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I would never ride in side reins but I was shocked when I went to a Pony Club rally in the summer and a few children had them on. It was explained to me that the children didn't have the strength to stop their ponies from grazing (I thought that was what grass reins were for) I was very suprised as I wouldn't have thought the Pony Club would have allowed this to go on at a rally.

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Yes, but equally I know someone who 'teaches' for the PC who failed her Stage 2 riding 3 times, was uninsured, with no first aid cert.
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Hmm, can I ask, what is the difference between riding them in side reins and having a lunge lesson on them with side reins on? The horse is no less likely to trip or rear on the lunge than he is off but no one thinks twice about putting them on for a lunge lesson , even acceptable in BHS exams. Just wondering?
Also, may well know training centres use them on horses used for schoolmaster lessons, not on the lunge.

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There are a number of reasons why it is ok to use sidereins for lunge lessons.
1. The instructor should hopefully be qualified and therefore be a good judge of length, etc, having worked the horse in beforehand (both with and without them).
2. The horse should be a suitable type - quiet and well schooled who knows how to work properly. He should therefore be unlikely to resist them.
3. The horse should remain on a 20m circle, and most of the lunge lesson is in trot. This means the side reins can be adjusted correctly, and the horse will not be asked to do a 6m circle etc without being allowed to bend.
4. The instructor should be in control of the horse, not the rider. They can either push the horse forward (backing up is the main danger), or quickly unclip the side reins if necessary.
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But, and I am an instructor, any horse can have a 'moment' and even the best instructor in the world would not be able to prevent it.
And the best schooled horse in the world can trip.
'The instructor should hopefully be qualified and therefore be a good judge of length, etc, having worked the horse in beforehand (both with and without them).' but surely this is still the case with or without a lunge line attached to the horse?

'. The horse should remain on a 20m circle, and most of the lunge lesson is in trot. This means the side reins can be adjusted correctly, and the horse will not be asked to do a 6m circle etc without being allowed to bend.' Even off the lunge the rider doesn't need to do small circles, the instructor could have her trotting large?

I am not trying to difficult, just really don't think there is any difference.
 
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Ditto most of what has been said above, definate no no to side reins.

If you want to try an aid to help you then I would recommend a market harborough or the lungeebungee.

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"Dons tin hat!!"
Somebody stated earlier on that side reins cannot be undone whilst mounted and are therefore dangerous... Are these 'gadgets' not exactly the same?!! Every single one of our horses or ponies - including the horses that we school and break for a professional living have been or are ridden or lunged in side-reins. This especially goes for the breakers who wear them on a daily basis to be lunged in. Side-reins are an excellent way of getting a horse used to having a constant 'feel' on the bit without the hinderance of moving limbs and teaches them where or how the head should be carried. When lungeing It isn't just a case of tying the head in and letting the back end do as it pleases as the back end is essentially being controlled by the person on the ground. Even the older horses are sometimes ridden in side reins, not just the youngsters. the correct fitting of them is the important factor of this, its when people start tightening them before the horse is ready that problems arise, thus encouraging rearing and backing off. As previously quoted any piece of tack in bad hands is an accident waiting to happen but gadgets are never a substitute for correct riding. I know i'm going to get slated for this but what the hell, it's what i believe in and have proven to work and works for us!!
 
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I can guess who you mean, but in my experience, the talented riders don't always make the best teachers - things come naturally to them whereas some of us need step-by-step instructions (in my case I need a pictorial guide).
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Agree with this 100%

I think the OP needs to get an instructor who is more focussed on the long term outcome for both horse and rider not a short term gain for competition.

There are a great many excellent instructors out there who can take her and her horse back to basics and work through the scales of training so that the horse is working correctly from behind. The contact and outline will follow naturally.

I'm not against appropriate use of gadgets but I wonder whether a lesson in a Market Harbrough or draw reins might be more appropriate. Or some lunging in a chambon or similar to help the horse understand what is wanted and develop the correct muscle.

I'd get a good instructor on a personal recommendation before trying any gadgets yourself.

Where are you based, perhaps someone can recommend a good freelance.
 
An instructor!
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Any horse can have 'a moment' - true - I think the BHS just try to minimise the risks.
Your second point, that there is no difference whether a lunge line is attached or not, I disagree with. Without the lunge line, the instructor has a lot less control over the horse, so can't help if it resists the side reins.
Your third point - that the client could stay on a 20m circle, without being on the lunge - true, but then why would you need side reins, if the client is no longer doing position work?
Any horse used for a lesson should be schooled enough to work correctly if ridden correctly, without tying it down with side reins, and adding an extra element of danger.
Personally, if I were an instructor, you couldn't pay me to teach loose with side reins on, as I'd be too frightened of being sued, and suspect that certain Fellows of the BHS would happily be expert witneses in the case.
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I think there is a difference.
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Ditto most of what has been said above, definate no no to side reins.

If you want to try an aid to help you then I would recommend a market harborough or the lungeebungee.

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"Dons tin hat!!"
Somebody stated earlier on that side reins cannot be undone whilst mounted and are therefore dangerous... Are these 'gadgets' not exactly the same?!! Every single one of our horses or ponies - including the horses that we school and break for a professional living have been or are ridden or lunged in side-reins. This especially goes for the breakers who wear them on a daily basis to be lunged in. Side-reins are an excellent way of getting a horse used to having a constant 'feel' on the bit without the hinderance of moving limbs and teaches them where or how the head should be carried. When lungeing It isn't just a case of tying the head in and letting the back end do as it pleases as the back end is essentially being controlled by the person on the ground. Even the older horses are sometimes ridden in side reins, not just the youngsters. the correct fitting of them is the important factor of this, its when people start tightening them before the horse is ready that problems arise, thus encouraging rearing and backing off. As previously quoted any piece of tack in bad hands is an accident waiting to happen but gadgets are never a substitute for correct riding. I know i'm going to get slated for this but what the hell, it's what i believe in and have proven to work and works for us!!

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I agree that any tack in bad hands is dangerous.
But you can release the contact (from the saddle) of a De Gogue, running reins, draw reins, MHS, etc.
You can't release/lengthen the side reins without physically getting off, or if you are a contortionist who can
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you still probably don't want to do it when the horse starts farting around.
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And how DO you fit correctly for walk, trot and canter simultaneously, without adjustment? And how DO you release the rein for the horse to stretch/soften?
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I am not saying I let people ride like this, just intrested in why people think there is any difference.
Other than draw reins any other gadget you use will restrict the horse in some way and not allow any give should the horse panic.
And yes, I have my BHSI, doesn't mean you can't have an open mind to why people have there own beliefs, thats how you continue to learn.
Whether a horse is on a lunge line or not if the horse panics and runs back from the side reins there isn't much anyone can do either from the floor or on the horses back apart from send it forwarrd with either the leg( rider) or lunge whip( instructor) which could be done on or off the lunge.

ETA, I don't agree that you can disconnect any training aid, the only one that you as a rider can allow would be the draw reins.
 
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The OP could consider riding in draw reins (another contentious point I know), or elastic insert reins, which have their own actions that may or may not help her situation.

Really, I think OP knows the answer: whilst she gained some useful knowledge from the one off lesson, she can recognise advice she isn't so keen on, has sought further advice to either confirm or refute her gut feeling about them, and is now looking for other solutions.

Well done OP I say
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I am not saying I let people ride like this, just intrested in why people think there is any difference.
Other than draw reins any other gadget you use will restrict the horse in some way and not allow any give should the horse panic.
And yes, I have my BHSI, doesn't mean you can't have an open mind to why people have there own beliefs, thats how you continue to learn.
Whether a horse is on a lunge line or not if the horse panics and runs back from the side reins there isn't much anyone can do either from the floor or on the horses back apart from send it forwarrd with either the leg( rider) or lunge whip( instructor) which could be done on or off the lunge.

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I don't agree with you that any gadget 'will not allow any give' as I have posted above. I'd be far happier riding in draw reins, knowing that I could drop the contact if necessary, than side reins where I'm stuck.
I agree to some extent that a horse backing off the contact of side reins is a problem whether ridden loose or on the lunge, probably more so loose though.
I think the BHS is in the business of minimising risk, not eradicating it. But then, I remember the good old days of 'round the world' and taking stirrups and reins away SIMULTANEOUSLY! Oh, the adrenalin rush!
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