Riding school - horses doing too many lessons each day!

[Hellie_AI]

Good Morning

I am new to the forum. I have been an instructor for 15 years and in my previous area worked at a prestigious school. Since moving to a new area I have tried 3 schools to work at and am quite shocked at the quality of riding schools. Have I just been spoilt.

My latest school have only private lessons and the horses are doing on average 6 privates a day. On some busy ones 8 lessons. These include private jumping lessons.

I feel this is too much and my old school we always worked to the standard of the horses never doing more then 2 lessons a day and at the weekend they could do an extra hack and Mondays the school was closed so they had a day off. I thought this was standard but am now realising how wonderful my old yard was.

 

[teapot]

Is the same horse doing all eight privates?! That sounds ridiculously bonkers from both a welfare point of view but also poor clients.

I spent the best part of five years allocating horses for lessons and it’s not easy. In my busier job, we had a rule that no horse ever did more than three a day (though I had enough when some ended up doing four ), and that was a mix of groups and privates.

Where I did my training the horses seemed to do max two a day but they were never busy/fully booked. Only time I ever sat on a horse there that felt a bit tired was post an exam morning.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Max of 3 a day was the rule at the excellent approved RS that I attended. Not sure if that was just their custom or whether it was decreed by the licensing authorities.

Off (RS closed) Mondays and Tuesdays.

 

[Rumtytum]

Usually 2, absolute max 3 a day where I ride and then it’s an assortment of types of lesson, not just the same thing. When not working they are out in fields and day off on Mondays.

 

[teapot]

Max of 3 a day was the rule at the excellent approved RS that I attended. Not sure if that was just their custom or whether it was decreed by the licensing authorities.

Off (RS closed) Mondays and Tuesdays.

Will be their own preference. Defra/implementing council have no say in hours worked, only that a record must be kept.

 

[Hellie_AI]

Will be their own preference. Defra/implementing council have no say in hours worked, only that a record must be kept.

That's quite a shock that there is no actual rule. I very much feel that going up to 8 private lessons in a day is insane.

 

[EventingMum]

This sounds crazy, it's a sure fire way to have sour horses. As an ex RS owner, I closed my approved school last summer, it was in everyone's (horses, owner, staff and clients) interest to monitor the horses workloads and variety of work.

 

[Cortez]

Are you saying horses are working 8 straight hours a day? What sort of lessons? Is that cantering and jumping, or plodding around with beginners?

 

[Hellie_AI]

Are you saying horses are working 8 straight hours a day? What sort of lessons? Is that cantering and jumping, or plodding around with beginners?

Jumping and dressage, no lessons are 40 minutes all private.

 

[Hellie_AI]

This sounds crazy, it's a sure fire way to have sour horses. As an ex RS owner, I closed my approved school last summer, it was in everyone's (horses, owner, staff and clients) interest to monitor the horses workloads and variety of work.

My sentiment too! I'm just shocked that there isn't any written rules on number of hours a school can work.

 

[Flyermc]

How long are the lessons?

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

Wow didn’t realise there wasn’t a legal limit!

 

[teapot]

Wow didn’t realise there wasn’t a legal limit!

Indeed. Licensing is more about general welfare and the provision of it. Nothing about working hours etc.

All here if anyone's interested: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...sing-statutory-guidance-for-local-authorities

 

[Gamebird]

OK, so I do a vast number of Riding School Inspections a year as a vet. I have done literally hundreds of inspections for many different councils over the last 10 or 15 years.

Whilst it is correct that there is no actual legal limit on the numbers of hours horses work, there is a legal requirement for the riding establishment to keep a log of each horse's hours, and this will be examined yearly, both at the interim and full inspections. There is absolutely no way that myself or any of my council inspectors would find that level of work acceptable. Or indeed any other vets who have qualified as inspectors. Obviously to an extent we judge based on the type of work done, but normally 2-3 lessons a day with 1-2 days off a week would be appropriate.

So if these horse's hours are being approved on yearly inspections then my first suspicion would be that the actual hours worked are being incorrectly recorded (deliberately or otherwise) so that on paper it looks like a reasonable workload for each horse. If the OP is suspicious that this might be happening then they can report it to the council in question who are duty bound to investigate. They may be asked to provide some evidence (eg. their own records of a horse's weekly hours) to compare with the proprietor's version. The council will not be able to reveal who made the complaint.

So please don't panic everyone that the legal number of hours isn't defined in law (there are too many factors at play to set a limit that would work for every horse in every situation - eg. you would want very young and very old horses to work less. Lead rein kids lessons can't be compared with playing polo chukkas etc.). But there is a framework in place for monitoring hours, and there is a system for investigating if there is any suspicion raised that the hours given on the inspection day aren't the true story.

 

[Hellie_AI]

OK, so I do a vast number of Riding School Inspections a year as a vet. I have done literally hundreds of inspections for many different councils over the last 10 or 15 years.

Whilst it is correct that there is no actual legal limit on the numbers of hours horses work, there is a legal requirement for the riding establishment to keep a log of each horse's hours, and this will be examined yearly, both at the interim and full inspections. There is absolutely no way that myself or any of my council inspectors would find that level of work acceptable. Or indeed any other vets who have qualified as inspectors. Obviously to an extent we judge based on the type of work done, but normally 2-3 lessons a day with 1-2 days off a week would be appropriate.

So if these horse's hours are being approved on yearly inspections then my first suspicion would be that the actual hours worked are being incorrectly recorded (deliberately or otherwise) so that on paper it looks like a reasonable workload for each horse. If the OP is suspicious that this might be happening then they can report it to the council in question who are duty bound to investigate. They may be asked to provide some evidence (eg. their own records of a horse's weekly hours) to compare with the proprietor's version. The council will not be able to reveal who made the complaint.

So please don't panic everyone that the legal number of hours isn't defined in law (there are too many factors at play to set a limit that would work for every horse in every situation - eg. you would want very young and very old horses to work less. Lead rein kids lessons can't be compared with playing polo chukkas etc.). But there is a framework in place for monitoring hours, and there is a system for investigating if there is any suspicion raised that the hours given on the inspection day aren't the true story.

Thank you this is a super answer! I will look at who to report to.

 

[teapot]

OK, so I do a vast number of Riding School Inspections a year as a vet. I have done literally hundreds of inspections for many different councils over the last 10 or 15 years.

Whilst it is correct that there is no actual legal limit on the numbers of hours horses work, there is a legal requirement for the riding establishment to keep a log of each horse's hours, and this will be examined yearly, both at the interim and full inspections. There is absolutely no way that myself or any of my council inspectors would find that level of work acceptable. Or indeed any other vets who have qualified as inspectors. Obviously to an extent we judge based on the type of work done, but normally 2-3 lessons a day with 1-2 days off a week would be appropriate.

So if these horse's hours are being approved on yearly inspections then my first suspicion would be that the actual hours worked are being incorrectly recorded (deliberately or otherwise) so that on paper it looks like a reasonable workload for each horse. If the OP is suspicious that this might be happening then they can report it to the council in question who are duty bound to investigate. They may be asked to provide some evidence (eg. their own records of a horse's weekly hours) to compare with the proprietor's version. The council will not be able to reveal who made the complaint.

So please don't panic everyone that the legal number of hours isn't defined in law (there are too many factors at play to set a limit that would work for every horse in every situation - eg. you would want very young and very old horses to work less. Lead rein kids lessons can't be compared with playing polo chukkas etc.). But there is a framework in place for monitoring hours, and there is a system for investigating if there is any suspicion raised that the hours given on the inspection day aren't the true story.

Oh I wish all those doing inspections were as detailed/interested as you clearly are. The industry would be in a better place if they were. I should have put my original post that hours are recorded but there’s no actual guidance/law about hours work so thanks for clarifying for others.

That said, my experience of handling inspections was that across two different yards I worked at, anything admin related was only ever glanced at, if that. Granted that’s one council and its employees, but it wasn’t as thorough as it could be, so the reality of an inspection wasn’t even close to what you’ve described. What’s checked does vary and this is how things fall through the cracks. The requirements of a hiring for horses license are huge, but I’ve seen first hand how things are missed on a regular basis, both from an operations point of view but also as a client so forgive my cynicism! I even know of somewhere where the council inspection had failed to notice the insurance policy was invalid!

Funnily enough it was the BHS who took more interest in how the hours were recorded and actually sat down to see how allocations were done, and any follow up admin from using a database to record it (which would potentially allow for abuse of hours etc).

OP - is this yard BHS approved too? If so you can approach them as well

 

[SEL]

I was on livery at a RS which was dodgy from a record keeping perspective. Always immaculate for inspection but with half the horses hidden away because they weren't on the licence!

Then one year a new vet and council official turned up and the tone was totally different. Not a single horse escaped her beady eye and she wanted to know who the owners were for all "liveries". I think the number if horses on the licence doubled. I had to get drafted in to pop on all the ponies for her rather than just trot them up.

Found out a year later that was the result of a complaint - because I met the ladies who had complained and they told me why.

RS now under new ownership and every t crossed etc so complaining does make a difference

 

[dominobrown]

Riding school where I worked horses did a maximum of 3 hours a day, though this was never done completely in lessons. Firstly they have 70+ horses so instead of one or two horses doing loads, most horses did half to 1 hour a day. quite often they would do 1 hour trek and 1 hour lesson, often at different ends of the day. We rarely got very sour horses. If they were getting annoyed being in the school they would just do trekking for a bit and vice versa. Also if a horse was doing multiple lessons it would have maybe a jumping lesson and then a quiet walk/trot lesson after. Didn't really let the horses jump more than twice a week.

They are working horses so have a busy active life, but quite often where still going into their late 20's.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

When I worked at riding schools at most they did 2 or 3 hours a day some did a few more walk lead rein classes but that's it and Monday was a day off.

Alot of the small ponies lived out and were brought in Thursday and worked until Sunday which was busy but they never did 8 hours a day.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

OK, so I do a vast number of Riding School Inspections a year as a vet. I have done literally hundreds of inspections for many different councils over the last 10 or 15 years.

Whilst it is correct that there is no actual legal limit on the numbers of hours horses work, there is a legal requirement for the riding establishment to keep a log of each horse's hours, and this will be examined yearly, both at the interim and full inspections. There is absolutely no way that myself or any of my council inspectors would find that level of work acceptable. Or indeed any other vets who have qualified as inspectors. Obviously to an extent we judge based on the type of work done, but normally 2-3 lessons a day with 1-2 days off a week would be appropriate.

So if these horse's hours are being approved on yearly inspections then my first suspicion would be that the actual hours worked are being incorrectly recorded (deliberately or otherwise) so that on paper it looks like a reasonable workload for each horse. If the OP is suspicious that this might be happening then they can report it to the council in question who are duty bound to investigate. They may be asked to provide some evidence (eg. their own records of a horse's weekly hours) to compare with the proprietor's version. The council will not be able to reveal who made the complaint.

So please don't panic everyone that the legal number of hours isn't defined in law (there are too many factors at play to set a limit that would work for every horse in every situation - eg. you would want very young and very old horses to work less. Lead rein kids lessons can't be compared with playing polo chukkas etc.). But there is a framework in place for monitoring hours, and there is a system for investigating if there is any suspicion raised that the hours given on the inspection day aren't the true story.

Is this for all the uk or just England and wales