Riding Schools - problems on standards/ inspections

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abina

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Recently there has been quite a few threads on here about bad experiances of RS and pictures taken of horses and their tack etc, and people concerned over the state of horses level of instruction and the general professional approach of some schools.

I am an owner of a riding school and I strive to make my school the best I can, so any negitive comments attract my interest as this does affect my business.

Firstly when you apply to hold RS licence you have an inspection from the local council, and you have an inspection from a vet and have to show proof of correct insurance.

However I do have issues with these two for the licence procedure from MY county council

1) the woman from the council doesn't know one end from a horse to the other - has no knowledge of horses and wouldn't be able to see any problems as she is a little scared of them and just asks a few weak questions.
2) the vet that has to come out to the school to inspect the place has to have a certain cert. of a course that they have completed to do with licence issusing- however the vet that comes to my yard is actually a small animal vet practice and his knowledege of horses is limited. However we have three fab equine hospitals all within 20 mile radius of my centre!

The vet is also responsible for inspecting and checking the fields, fencing, first aid box equine and human , shoeing and vet files - believe it or not the fire regs, and checking the fire extinguisers.

I will make it clear that different County Councils have different procedures and fees !

I have three friends that also own RS two in the same county and one in the neighbouring county. We all have different people inspecting and what we are required to show and do on the day is all different and the costs charged vary from £350 - £1500 all these schools have between 15-25 horses so we are all similar.

My last inspection my horses were heart/ lung/ eyes checked - walked out for four strides trotted for three strides declared fit and put away. The vet walked into the tack room had a look at the tack, still on the pegs and said everything was fine! However my friend's RS same amount of horses 15 miles from me same county - had to show each horse in hand, show each horses with it's tack on and trotted up with and without tack. Completely different people and vet. ONLY a BHS inspector - if you wish to join the BHS approved scheme will actually see anyone teach / instruct! - another bug bear is that you do not have to a qualified instructor to teach at a RS !!!

How are RS suposed to be of certain standard when the base level of inspection differs greatly? What one person finds acceptable wouldn't pass muster with another. The whole process is a joke and I firmly believe that is where the problem lies. Standards vary far too much and if we the owners / managers / instructors can't understand it all how on earth will a geniune client be able to make a judgement on a good standard / bad standard, hence this person posting a photo of a horses tacked up is very confused.

If anyone has any concerns about anything they see at a Riding school, first have a word with the owner / manager their instructior and ask for an explaination - Why is that horse tacked up and not tied up? Prehaps a student has forgotten. Ask questions first. If still unhappy with answer contact the BHS for more information and advice, If a real welfare issue then you will have to contact the County coucil licensing department and they are the people responsible for the licence.

When it comes down to it it's your money and if you are not getting the service you require of a standard that you find acceptable then vote with your feet !
 
It must be hard for you.
There are some very good riding schools out there but also some very bad ones.

I agree the licensing and inspection program should be changed, carried out by people that actually know what they are talking about and they should be more consistent.
 
That inspection sounds strange! The rs I worked for always had very in depth inspections, I think the guy who does it is wn ex vet. All horses have to be tacked up, saddles are taken off checked, back checked, trotted up. Eyes lungs etc checked.

Definitely agree there should be more consistency, also think it should be made clearer to the general public who they can complain too if an incident occurs. Complaining to the BHS over and non approved yard is going to make the process much longer than if you contact the relevant council department direct.

And to make it clear the rs I worked for always passed with flying colours.
 
Exactly what I was pointing out - how the different centres are put through different inspections ! How can the standard be the same basic levels if your school Jesspickle has a through inspection - Tack on / off horses etc and I only have a quick trot up and at no point is the tack actually taken off the pegs in the tack room !
 
The RS local to us seems to sail through their inspections????? I agree with you that standards seem to vary even with the same council.

Not all the horses are brought out for checking either with the comment 'oh that's a livery' so the inspectors accept that and move on to the next.

One horse has been lame for over a year and is still used in the school! That horse became a 'livery' for the day of inspection!

None of the horses were tacked up and trotted up either.

I share your dismay as well that the instructors do not need to be qualified! Shocking as it sounds the saturday helpers who can just about ride themselves have been giving lessons and at times have been in charge of the whole establishment when YO away and yes they are under 18!

How this is allowed in this day and age I do not know!
 
In response to foraday - certainly within my own RS licence rules (possibly other councils may be different ) but my school must not be left in sole charge of any person under the age of 16yrs ! ummm - health and safety !!!! as for a horse being a livery for a day - I have to fill in a form with my renewal application of all the horses to be used in the RS with colour / age/ height and sex - nothing is done about any horses that are not on the list ! except any horse / pony under the age of 3yrs which must be declared. Other than that you could get away with it no problem - unless that particular horse was invovled with a serious accident that was reported to the anthorites, then you may run into difficulties but for some schools they may consider it worth the risk.

Interesting comments
 
very interesting discussion.

As an instructor (who has never worked in a RS) I was under the impression that even under the council scheme that a BHSAI or above had to be on site at all times when a lesson was taking place? (not teaching, just on premises) Is this not true?

just interested....
 
Very interesting. I agree, there needs to be a standard code of practice for examinating for licenses, and those responsible for undertaking them should be knowledgable about horses and riding. Otherwise avoidable accidents happen.
I used to teach at a riding school (no official qualifications, don't shoot me down!!!!!), and we had to present a series of horses (vets random choice, as many as they wanted), first for health check, eyes, lungs etc, then trot up, then tack on trot up, then mounted trot up.
And as for an approved instructor having to be present, I'm almost certain it's a no. None of the instructors had a BHS teaching test and we got our license every time.
 
I run an equestrian centre. The council inspect us annually. They check the dentist, worming ect records. They have a very brief look through the passports. Our risk assessments and accident forms are checked.

They then move to the yard where they check the beds, stables and buildings. The fire extingushers and all safety notices are checked.

They check the human and equine first aid kits.

They also check that the emergancy exit light in the loos are working.

Horse wise- all horses are trotted up and back, eyes are checked and heart. They are also all aged.

The tack is checked for safety, wear and tear but not for fit.

Every other year we are inspected by the BHS who spot check and have a general look round. They also inspect the arenas and the xc course. They do not really look at the horses.

We have a Where to train inspection every other year where they watch lessons in progress as well as check the above. They also check the standard of instruction and lectures.
 
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galaxy23 said:
very interesting discussion.

As an instructor (who has never worked in a RS) I was under the impression that even under the council scheme that a BHSAI or above had to be on site at all times when a lesson was taking place? (not teaching, just on premises) Is this not true?

just interested....
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Thst is an insurance requirement and no a license one
 
charlie76 said:
I run an equestrian centre. The council inspect us annually. They check the dentist, worming ect records. They have a very brief look through the passports. Our risk assessments and accident forms are checked.

They then move to the yard where they check the beds, stables and buildings. The fire extingushers and all safety notices are checked.

They check the human and equine first aid kits.

They also check that the emergancy exit light in the loos are working.

Horse wise- all horses are trotted up and back, eyes are checked and heart. They are also all aged.

The tack is checked for safety, wear and tear but not for fit.

Every other year we are inspected by the BHS who spot check and have a general look round. They also inspect the arenas and the xc course. They do not really look at the horses.

We have a Where to train inspection every other year where they watch lessons in progress as well as check the above. They also check the standard of instruction and lectures.
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Charlie 76 - Thank-you for your imput ! interesting that we have never been checked for fire emergancy lights - although I always keep these in good working order as it would be a massive insurance issue if not working and required in the event of a fire. My horses have never been aged by the vet, just relies on the form I filled in previous and the passports have never been asked for let alone looked at.

Do you feel that most of your checks that you do personally is more for insurance purposes ? ie. the lights - the arena safe and secure, etc

As for a minimum of a BHSAI on the premises this has never been a requirement of my licence and although I have informed my insurers of the qualifications of the instructors (all BHS qualified) that teach for me they have not stipulated that they have to be present at any point.

This may again may vary from different insurance companies.


Does anyone who is a BHS approved centre ever had their instruction assesed?
 
I hesitate to go into detail but, having been familiar with a BHS-approved and council-inspected riding centre, I don't believe that either system does a damn thing for horse welfare or the safety of paying clients.

I saw some bloody awful things at that place. The way they got around it was because the inspections, both council and BHS, are announced with plenty of notice. Why on earth are they not subject to unannounced spot checks? :confused:
 
I agree with a lot of this. I worked at a rs where I was a working pupil and like others, we have to trot the horses up in-hand and age them. How, we ever got by I dunno, because one year 1 horse was 24 and the next she was 12. and vice versa for a lot of them. I remember my YO being put on spot regarding horse names in rs and she wrote them down on a sheet of paper. Have to admit we were killing ourselves laughing, reading it afterwards as she had come up with the most bizarre names of which never existed.

This is why I am now wary of going to any RS in this area, as I have no idea which are good/bad and you get mixed reviews from people so I keep putting it off.
 
blackcob said:
I saw some bloody awful things at that place. The way they got around it was because the inspections, both council and BHS, are announced with plenty of notice. Why on earth are they not subject to unannounced spot checks? :confused:
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Not a lot has changed then! MANY moons ago - as a newly qualified AI - I took on the job of Chief Instructor at a commercial, BHS Approved RS with about 40 horses. I KNEW the place was a bit rough - but location was convenient and as I was a very experienced Instructor (in Oz) prior to doing AI I preferred a job that would make me big fish in a small pond - rather than a minnow in the ocean! I was given a free hand!

They DIDN'T tell me that they were on a warning from both the Council AND the BHS! Wouldn't have made a difference - I went through the place like a dose of salts, threw away dangerous tack, restored horses to health, generally got it up to scratch. THEN the Council inspector turned up (he was a well-known equine vet!) HE went through the place in the same way - he had a list of horses he'd seen on his previous visit - and as we got to EIGHT different horses (who weren't on his list) he asked me if they were 'new'! They weren't - they'd been 'hidden' in a far field on his previous visit! I was rather proud that the ONLY negative comment he could come up with was that the Fire Notice was a bit tatty!!

I have to say that when the BHS Inspector returned he wasn't nearly as 'efficient' (and he's still there!)
 
|Ok thank-you for all your inputs and experiances - this has given me a lot feedback now I have to do something positive with it. I have a huge dossier of information so over the next few weeks I will collate it all and present to all the releveant organisations ... I'm not saying this will change anything but hopefully it might sow some seeds.

I will try and keep you all informed and again Thank-you.
 
I know this is an old thread, but is there an update?

There is a riding school/Livery yard locally, that doesn't worm regularly (if at all) uses lame horse in lessons, has more horses than acreage, the majority live out with NO grazing, they get a small quantity of mouldy hay (lasts 15 20 mins) no feed. They do not have automatic waterers so are reliant on trugs being refilled. Those that are in are fed mouldy hay and are bedded on a very small quantity of mouldy straw. Some stables are in a leaky barn with mud floors so the horses stand in muddy puddles.

They are not checked properly (dead horses in fields found by liveries). Lots of sickness and injury not picked up until very serious. Fields are very small so no room for horses to run about. And as the only grass is outside the fields the horses spend most of their time with heads thru fences, resulting in constant fence failure.

What can I do about this? They are inspected, I can only imagine they hide horses, especially the sick,thin, lame ones.
 
I know this is an old thread, but I think council inspections are likely to get worse, if not axed totally.

Central government are reducing funding to local authorities and anything that isn't vital is being stopped. I work in Environmental Health, we have lost 20% of our staff in this years cuts. Animal licensing officers don't have to have the same formal qualifications as some other inspectors, and as many authorities only have a few RS they are not likely to want to invest in specific horse related qualifications. At my LA they have done a skills audit and know I have NVQ qualifications in riding and horse care, but as a fully qualified Env. Health Officer they wouldn't allow me to do work that could be done more cheaply - sad though as I loved doing RS inspections when I was training.
 
Captainmouse - if they are BHS registered then contact BHS. If not, have a look on your local authority's website to see who is in charge of Riding Establishment licences and try and get in touch with them, I have done this in the past and it was dealt with impeccably although I'm guessing will vary between authorities.

Or you could always try one of the welfare agencies, WHW/RSPCA/BHS welfare although they may well refer you to the authority as the first point of contact.

To answer the OP, the Riding Establishment Licence is very much a box ticking exercise, although vets can use their own discretion as to how in depth they are. I have attended a number of visits (both when working with an equine practice and then for a yard I worked at) and they did vary. A lot.
 
Magicmillbrook said:
I know this is an old thread, but I think council inspections are likely to get worse, if not axed totally.

Central government are reducing funding to local authorities and anything that isn't vital is being stopped. I work in Environmental Health, we have lost 20% of our staff in this years cuts. Animal licensing officers don't have to have the same formal qualifications as some other inspectors, and as many authorities only have a few RS they are not likely to want to invest in specific horse related qualifications. At my LA they have done a skills audit and know I have NVQ qualifications in riding and horse care, but as a fully qualified Env. Health Officer they wouldn't allow me to do work that could be done more cheaply - sad though as I loved doing RS inspections when I was training.
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The above is it in a nutshell.

I am a Licensing Officer. In recent years many smaller District/Borough Authorities have joined and become larger Regulatory Services. Staff from all Council's are firstly pooled and then axed down to minimal levels. My team of 4 went down to one, I was the only survivor. I was lucky as were the equine mouths I feed !

I find myself working with licensing officers from other Council's who will not hand over the schools in their area to me because 'they like a trip out on a sunny afternoon'. One of them said to me he has never kept a goldfish, but likes to see the ponies. It is a frightening situation and it should be remembered the licensing authorities function is not only to protect the animals in the establishment but to also protect the public using such establishments.

I look after the schools in my district and have a really good relationship with the proprietors, this is only achieved because I know what I am talking about and am respected for it. The schools vary greatly in quality. I have a few that are tatty and one or two that are impressive. The tatty school is fantastic for tots and nervous new riders, the horses are rock steady aged types and the staff kind and experienced, dedicating one day a week to the RDA. The impressive school holds horses that will teach you halfpass etc. Both are governed by the same legislation. It is very easy for the public to look at lower level schools and think the horses are suffering, because they are seeing heavy coated scruffy horses shuffling their way round the sand school whilst the rider tries to master rising trot.

Magicmillbrook is so right with the comments about officers not being used to their specific skill sets. I get very angry when I see my colleagues arranging riding school visits in the middle of the summer, I tell them go in Jan to April, thats when the horses will be in trouble, not a warm afternoon in July. They laugh at me doing my schools in mid to late winter. Guess who they ask when they have a problem from the public though.

For the poster earlier, if you would like to PM me with the name and address of the school you are concerned about I will contact the relevant authority for you.
 
Thank you all very much, unfortunately the horses are in trouble at the moment due to lack of grass in the fields, mouldy hay (fed minimally) not being fed, and no running water.

I will pm thanks again.
 
charlie76 said:
Every other year we are inspected by the BHS who spot check and have a general look round. They also inspect the arenas and the xc course. They do not really look at the horses.

.
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This is my grump, I have been at several places which are BHS accreditied, only one was what I consider good. They all have "certification" for the year by January!
One had no hacking [advertised as excellent hacking] and the arena was dug up in winter, so basically it had good big stables and daily turnout.
One had poor stabling for liveries, so it was accredited as a RS, I did not understand the difference, the school horses lived out most of the time, but some were stabled in this sub standard stabling.
The school horses ranged in age from 3 to 18, did no one realise that is illegal?
I challenged the BHS that no one person could cover the whole of Scotland, but was told there was no problem, well I can assure you that some places would take a whole day to travel, just not possible to cover the whole country with one person.
As far as I am concerned they should do the job properly or not at all.
Btw, the H&S inspector told staff to remove trotting poles from arena as they were a tripping hazard, the staff duly complied, idiots!
 
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They DO offer livery, that's how I know so much about the running of the place.

I know the ages of the horses and the volunteers. I know that all hay and straw is stored outside and how often it has been rained on this year.

I know how long the donkeys were kept in the dog runs before being moved in the garage. I know all about the fence failures and horses roaming loose.

I know how often the water buckets in the fields are empty. I know how little hay is thrown into the fields. I know how often the horses are left in heavyweight rugs in the summer, sweating.

I know how often the feed room is empty. I know how much mud/water those in the barn stand in. I know nothing has been wormed this year. I know how many staff have left, leaving them to manage with volunteers.

As far as I know they are not registered with the BHS cos in their words BHS are ********, it is parelli all the way with them and boy do they love to shove that down your throat!. if the BHS can help I will contact them.
 
Captainmouse said:
They DO offer livery, that's how I know so much about the running of the place.

I know the ages of the horses and the volunteers. I know that all hay and straw is stored outside and how often it has been rained on this year.

I know how long the donkeys were kept in the dog runs before being moved in the garage. I know all about the fence failures and horses roaming loose.

I know how often the water buckets in the fields are empty. I know how little hay is thrown into the fields. I know how often the horses are left in heavyweight rugs in the summer, sweating.

I know how often the feed room is empty. I know how much mud/water those in the barn stand in. I know nothing has been wormed this year. I know how many staff have left, leaving them to manage with volunteers.

As far as I know they are not registered with the BHS cos in their words BHS are ********, it is parelli all the way with them and boy do they love to shove that down your throat!. if the BHS can help I will contact them.
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This is a welfare issue, can be approached by RSPCA or WHW or Local Authority licencing people.
 
I think an awful lot needs to be done about the teaching standards too. The nearest 3 to me vary greatly. One, even picky me could not find a fault with. Excellent standards in all things & turns out cracking riders, who if they wish can also learn a fantastic standard of stable management, & compete/ show quality horses. The second isn't of that standard, not as much attention to detail, but far from being a bad place. The third is the biggest. I won't go into details as don't want doing for slander, but it does cater for more than just private lessons, various approved courses are available too. The standard of teaching/riding is truly god awful. Having both witnessed lessons of various standards, & taught quite a few ex pupils privately, its my honest opinion that it only teaches the wrong way to do stuff. The basic concept of what they consider riding is way off the mark. It really is atrocious, & a rider would be better left to their own devices on a trekking pony, than learning bad habits, a false sense of skill, & paying through the nose. I'm also far from the only person who thinks that, & I very much pity the pupils who are ripped off. All are bhs approved. But on paper, the third looks like the most impressive, & non horsey parents/novices can be forgiven for being sucked in. That imo really needs to change.
 
Miss L Toe said:
This is my grump, I have been at several places which are BHS accreditied, only one was what I consider good. They all have "certification" for the year by January!
One had no hacking [advertised as excellent hacking] and the arena was dug up in winter, so basically it had good big stables and daily turnout.
One had poor stabling for liveries, so it was accredited as a RS, I did not understand the difference, the school horses lived out most of the time, but some were stabled in this sub standard stabling.
The school horses ranged in age from 3 to 18, did no one realise that is illegal?
I challenged the BHS that no one person could cover the whole of Scotland, but was told there was no problem, well I can assure you that some places would take a whole day to travel, just not possible to cover the whole country with one person.
As far as I am concerned they should do the job properly or not at all.
Btw, the H&S inspector told staff to remove trotting poles from arena as they were a tripping hazard, the staff duly complied, idiots!
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BHS approval is seperate for RS and livery yards so the yard could have choosen not to be assessed as a livery yard or told they were not up standard. Unfortunately some people are not entirely honest so could have said the "sub standard stables" were not used for RS horses if there were others available which were suitable, it's very difficult for inspectors to prove otherwise when they don't see the yard on a day to day basis.

The BHS inspection would check that the RS held a local authority licence which should involve inspection of all horses used within the business and so should ensure no horse under 5 yo is used. However obviously it is impossible to police yards on a daily basis and they may use an underage horse that they have not put forward for their licensing inspection. That said this would obviously invalidate their insurance which would be dependent on licensing conditions being met.

At present there are around 40 approved Riding schools listed in Scotland, the BHS inspector will make one unannounced inspection per yard per year so I would think this would not be a problem for one person.

Unfortunately for either the BHS or local authories to inspected yards on a more regular basis would involve far higher costs which would have to be passed on to clients and may render businesses unviable. As with many other industries these inspections are somewhat dependant on the honesty of the proprietors who sign a declaration when the inspections are carried out.

Whilst it may not be a perfect system at least some form of inspection is carried out, what worries me far more is the numerous "unofficial", unregulated yards running with no licence or insurance in place.
 
Old thread I know but just to update, since my last post 6 horses have died at this establishment, those that live out (majority) are knee deep in mud 24/7.
 
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