Riding seat, position

[Orangehorse]

I am starting this thread after reading the overweight riders discussion.

I think there is a riding seat/position for different activities and there now seems to be a big emphasis on the dressage only position generally, which isn't always appropriate. There can be a chance of the rider tipping forward, or the "fatal crouch" as some call it, as your weight is forward instead of centre.

When showing you want the judge to see the neck and shoulder, which is why the saddles are straight cut and the seat a little towards the back, not the centre.


For long hours in the saddle you really need to sit a little bit further back, the hunting seat really. I rode in France and the saddles were modelled on the Army saddles, in that they had extended back panels so that the sometimes novice rider could sit in a chair seat position, but weren't sitting on the very back of the saddle. If you try to sit in the dressage seat for hours you will come to regret it. If going for a long, long ride then slightly longer stirrups and slightly further back (not in an exaggerated way) is the most comfortable.

Cross country - too many have their stirrups too long. Years ago Mark Philips said there should be 5 holes different between dressage and cross country, which you will see with the advanced.

I was a writer for a dressage judge years ago and she said that it doesn't matter what length the stirrups are, the important thing is the have the horse balanced so that applies to a jockey, western rider, showing or dressage rider. Which was advice I took on board.

Discuss..........

 

[sbloom]

I think there is a riding seat/position for different activities and there now seems to be a big emphasis on the dressage only position generally, which isn't always appropriate. There can be a chance of the rider tipping forward, or the "fatal crouch" as some call it, as your weight is forward instead of centre.

Nobody should be working only on dressage positions. If the rider is tipping forwards the position is wrong, whatever the stirrup length. They need to be stacked with a neutral spine, unless actively getting forwards in the saddle.

When showing you want the judge to see the neck and shoulder, which is why the saddles are straight cut and the seat a little towards the back, not the centre.

Yes to straight cut, no to sitting the rider further back. Physics. There is no benefit to the horse from sitting the rider further back and it doesn't affect how much shoulder is seen. In fact the way I fit traditional saddles most of my GPs look better than most people's show saddles in terms of the shoulder because of where I place, and keep, them.

For long hours in the saddle you really need to sit a little bit further back, the hunting seat really. I rode in France and the saddles were modelled on the Army saddles, in that they had extended back panels so that the sometimes novice rider could sit in a chair seat position, but weren't sitting on the very back of the saddle. If you try to sit in the dressage seat for hours you will come to regret it. If going for a long, long ride then slightly longer stirrups and slightly further back (not in an exaggerated way) is the most comfortable.

Cross country - too many have their stirrups too long. Years ago Mark Philips said there should be 5 holes different between dressage and cross country, which you will see with the advanced.

Sitting in a more dressage seat isn't a problem if the saddle actually supports the pelvis, though sure, if it's more than a few hours then it's not necessarily the best way to ride. Endurance asks a lot of horse and rider, and as we get to the upper levels we need specialised saddles that can spread the weight, but sitting the rider further forwards will always help the horse. Physics.

I was a writer for a dressage judge years ago and she said that it doesn't matter what length the stirrups are, the important thing is the have the horse balanced so that applies to a jockey, western rider, showing or dressage rider. Which was advice I took on board.

100%, a balanced and stable rider means a horse can carry the rider WAY more easily, and maintain balance and therefore long term soundness. Here's a report from a demo I was involved in last week explaining some takeaways from seeing this approach in the flesh:

https://www.facebook.com/emmamaloneequestrian/posts/pfbid02U1oCHs2TBPA9DKMEHsnTYtuoVt2LdUVX6AGuXkf1h8ae3wzKA7jdAPhqN64x8esvl

 

[Time for Tea]

Very interesting report. Thank you. I think the problem is, such expertise and in depth knowledge as described is not widely on offer. Or not known to me! Then even if you buy a saddle seat that’s supposed to match your pelvis, according to your local saddle fitter, it may not prove comfortable in practice and budgets are limited. Also it isn’t something generally discussed at saddle fitting, it’s all about what fits the pony/horse. Which is correct but if you are not in balance can it be said to fit them anyway? It is easy to fit a saddle that suits the rider but not the pony. It’s not too difficult to fit a saddle suitable for the pony. But to get both correct, ah that’s difficult. One of my NF ponies who is now 15hh has two Farrington saddles, one VSD, and one event style. The event style is actually a bit too long in the back in theory but he likes it and I feel wonderful after a ride in it, loosened up etc. I bought it secondhand as I hated the VSD so much……

I remember much flatter seats on the serge lined saddles of my youth, where you just put your legs where they needed to be to stay in balance, no pads or knee rolls much.

It seems to me if you ride dressage style your bottom must always stay in the saddle. This is not really possible on a horse moving fast over rough ground or jumping.

 

[Widgeon]

​

Yes....all of this. One day hopefully saddles and saddle fitting will have moved on, but for now I think anyone with less than two grand to throw at the problem is stuck with a compromise.

 

[Julia0803]

Completely agree. I’ve only ever had one saddler mention the fit for the rider- and we had gone to her specifically as we were struggling, and had spoken to her before she came out.

The previous fitter, only two months before, had fitted a dressage saddle that fitted the Coblet well, and he went nicely in it, but leggy son (who was tbh v out of proportion between legs and body - think gangly baby TB!) was way too long in the thigh, and the blocks were pushing his leg way back, he couldn’t get his lower leg underneath him- they disappeared towards the cob’s flanks!! We worked this out fairly quickly, and now the issue is something I’d be aware of, but at that time (this was 6/7years ago), I wasn’t. The saddler said the saddle was a good fit, off you go! It was our instructor that pointed it out and explained why he was having problems (and also recommended the saddler in the first paragraph- v sadly retired).

I wish it were something that the general population of saddlers considered seriously.

 

[sbloom]

It's hard, people come with small budgets, short timescales, difficult to fit combos (very tall or heavy riders on short backed horses) and want magic saddles. This approach to ride fit is new to the UK but will spread, and the more people talk about it, talk about a higher bar, the more people will seek it out and fitters get trained in it.

Basic geometry, having the saddle in balance and the blocks in the right place etc, is important but only a tiny bit of the puzzle - if the pelvis and hips aren't suited by the saddle/ribcage shapes then you're on a hiding to nothing. It's tough when 95% Walsall build saddles with mid-rear balance points - we can get a decent fit for many riders, and on very wide horses this may be the only options, but to get riders more over their centre of gravity and their feet makes SUCH a difference to the horse's way of going it's quite astonishing. Seek out fitters who will fit based on an actual pelvis assessment, it's the sure fire way to make sure the pelvis IS correctly fitted and having that lack of tension in a neutral pelvis is more of a dead cert, otherwise the fitter is slightly guessing.

 

[sbloom]

Very interesting report. Thank you. I think the problem is, such expertise and in depth knowledge as described is not widely on offer. Or not known to me! Then even if you buy a saddle seat that’s supposed to match your pelvis, according to your local saddle fitter, it may not prove comfortable in practice and budgets are limited. Also it isn’t something generally discussed at saddle fitting, it’s all about what fits the pony/horse. Which is correct but if you are not in balance can it be said to fit them anyway? It is easy to fit a saddle that suits the rider but not the pony. It’s not too difficult to fit a saddle suitable for the pony. But to get both correct, ah that’s difficult. One of my NF ponies who is now 15hh has two Farrington saddles, one VSD, and one event style. The event style is actually a bit too long in the back in theory but he likes it and I feel wonderful after a ride in it, loosened up etc. I bought it secondhand as I hated the VSD so much……

I remember much flatter seats on the serge lined saddles of my youth, where you just put your legs where they needed to be to stay in balance, no pads or knee rolls much.

It seems to me if you ride dressage style your bottom must always stay in the saddle. This is not really possible on a horse moving fast over rough ground or jumping.

I'm not sure how they know it fits your pelvis, as per the comment above. A flatter dressage seat and smaller blocks, perhaps on velcro where possible, gives a much more versatile fit. It's only makers that have delineated dressage from jump with a hard and fast line, a seat that fits the pelvis, a bar placement and flap shape suitable for the discipline(s), then blocks in the right place, means that naming the saddle is really only done for customer comms/marketing purposes, otherwise it's just a saddle that suits you on that particular horse than enables you to do the activities of choice. We do fit the bars slightly further back for dressage to fully get the foot under the rider, but correct fitting bring the rider more over the feet even jumping, than most saddles aim to achieve.

 

[Time for Tea]

I'm not sure how they know it fits your pelvis, as per the comment above. A flatter dressage seat and smaller blocks, perhaps on velcro where possible, gives a much more versatile fit. It's only makers that have delineated dressage from jump with a hard and fast line, a seat that fits the pelvis, a bar placement and flap shape suitable for the discipline(s), then blocks in the right place, means that naming the saddle is really only done for customer comms/marketing purposes, otherwise it's just a saddle that suits you on that particular horse than enables you to do the activities of choice. We do fit the bars slightly further back for dressage to fully get the foot under the rider, but correct fitting bring the rider more over the feet even jumping, than most saddles aim to achieve.

It’s extremely complicated isn’t it? Take your point about naming for marketing purposes, I think my Farrington event is really just an ordinary saddle that suits me and the pony. Can you tell from looking at a saddle if it’s balance point is mid/rear as you say they are, mostly? does it help if you let the stirrups hang down and see if the leathers are hanging vertical and if so, if they are centred underneath the central part of the saddle and seat bones of the rider? I must say it is a minefield but I am too old to ride bareback and apparently that’s not good for equines either.
I look forward to more fitters being trained in this area as you think will happen
I think the OP is right and the key is to be in balance however achieved. I think as you get older you need more help from your saddle to achieve that balance, and security

 

[sbloom]

It’s extremely complicated isn’t it? Take your point about naming for marketing purposes, I think my Farrington event is really just an ordinary saddle that suits me and the pony. Can you tell from looking at a saddle if it’s balance point is mid/rear as you say they are, mostly? does it help if you let the stirrups hang down and see if the leathers are hanging vertical and if so, if they are centred underneath the central part of the saddle and seat bones of the rider? I must say it is a minefield but I am too old to ride bareback and apparently that’s not good for equines either.
I look forward to more fitters being trained in this area as you think will happen
I think the OP is right and the key is to be in balance however achieved. I think as you get older you need more help from your saddle to achieve that balance, and security

Easier than you think, only Harry Dabbs make (some) saddle with a forward balance in this country, the rest are mid or rear. Looking at bar location is secondary as you could, like HM, put the bars WAY back and it might look like forward balance, it's much more to do with where the rider sits in relation to the front of the tree, where the widest point of the seat is.

Some "event" saddles are for XC and are flatter and more forwards than a jump saddle, most are simply GPs with a fancier name. Names are a problem!

I see it's nothing to do with age, or very little. Optimising the seat is about the skeleton, what you can then do is about muscle and tone but seeing old classical coaches ride, and seeing riders transformed by ridden biomex and people like the Equestrian Fitness Institute coaches, sitting well is possible for everyone. The right saddle makes making the corrections easier for everyone.

 

[Fire sign]

It's hard, people come with small budgets, short timescales, difficult to fit combos (very tall or heavy riders on short backed horses) and want magic saddles. This approach to ride fit is new to the UK but will spread, and the more people talk about it, talk about a higher bar, the more people will seek it out and fitters get trained in it.

Basic geometry, having the saddle in balance and the blocks in the right place etc, is important but only a tiny bit of the puzzle - if the pelvis and hips aren't suited by the saddle/ribcage shapes then you're on a hiding to nothing. It's tough when 95% Walsall build saddles with mid-rear balance points - we can get a decent fit for many riders, and on very wide horses this may be the only options, but to get riders more over their centre of gravity and their feet makes SUCH a difference to the horse's way of going it's quite astonishing. Seek out fitters who will fit based on an actual pelvis assessment, it's the sure fire way to make sure the pelvis IS correctly fitted and having that lack of tension in a neutral pelvis is more of a dead cert, otherwise the fitter is slightly guessing.

So I was wondering how you would make a pelvis assessment ? How can you tell what shape it is by looking at a person ?

 

[sbloom]

So I was wondering how you would make a pelvis assessment ? How can you tell what shape it is by looking at a person ?

Via imprint, there is a process to go through first, to find what support the person needs under them so their pelvis is supported in neutral, then we take an imprint. You absolutely cannot tell from the outside, often you can't tell much at all about the hips either and they are just as important.