Right of way, footpath, question...access onto

[maisieblu]

Hi ..Our yard has a long drive running down alongside a small housing estate which then at the end gives access onto a public footpath and of course the yard...all fenced and gated off, its a well used path and the drive isnt wide enough to allow for a "separate" path. I have noticed that just recently 2/3 of the houses have put gates in their fences which then allows them access to the drive. Is this allowed does anyone know? It is a private drive otherwise and surely dangerous as cars, lorries, horses are trundling up and down regularly, just because there is a public footpath does this allow them to directly access across the drive? We are totally responsible for its upkeep. I find it so annoying just because they cant be bothered to walk a 100m round the corner onto the path!! Im loathe to ring the council as they will use it as an excuse to visit and have a poke around!!!!

 

[Ali2]

This might help:

http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15181

Sound sto me like they're allowed. Assuming that the public path fronts right up to their boundary.

 

[Happytohack]

If they have created access from their gardens directly on to the path, then I am sure they are legally entitled to do so. If on the other hand they have accessed the drive in order to get to the footpath, then they can't as it is private property.

 

[maisieblu]

Thanks for the link, I can understand if it was indeed just a beaten footpath but I think the problem is that the line of path is unclear ...as the drive goes around a bend, so most walk on the LHS up the drive which then goes thru yard gate [RHS] and path continues on up still on LHS. Gates in fences are on RHS thus in effect making them walk "over" the drive to get to "LHS" footpath, the signpost at the end just points in the general direction. I dont want anyone moaning about the vehicles when they exit onto the drive, as they winge about pretty much anything to do with the footpath, even tho they persist in having loose dogs, running in the fields, leaving poo everywhere or bags hanging in trees and cycling down at ridiculous speeds

 

[maisieblu]

Yes H to H thats exactly what i think they are doing

 

[kaluki]

Slightly differant, but our house sides/backs onto MOD land, in our deeds there is section that says we are not allowed to put in an, access gate to woodland (mod) but you walk along the path and almost every one has! (we havent as have 'proper' access gate at end of drive!). any clauses in the would say about free access to the footpath I should think, you need to get hold of deeds!

 

[maisieblu]

I might just "park" the muck trailer there!...on a very warm day!!

 

[JillA]

What's the difference between all those people walking a proportion of the path (from their new gates) and the same people walking the whole of the path having gone around to the start? Sorry but I don't get it - am I missing something? Or are you saying that the part of the drive they have opened thir gates on to isn't public footpath? In which case they are trespassing.

 

[Ali2]

Where does the OS map have the footpath route showing?

 

[maisieblu]

The OS map isnt in enough detail to show where exactly the path is just that its down the line of the drive Im sort of assuming as they do that they can use the entire drive which seems a bit off as i have to clear up after them and maintain it all

 

[Honey08]

The footpath must surely go down the track/drive anyway, mustn't it? So even though it is also a private drive, people must be able to access it..

We have a footpath on our land that backs onto an outdoor pursuits school, and they have put huge double gates onto the path. They have every right, as far as I know.

You could always fence a small walkway area at the side of the track, to keep everyone safe and stop them wandering too much. We do this with our path - keeps the horses away from them and stops them getting hurt at the same time..

Blocking a footpath or making it awkward with muck trailers could cause you more trouble. It may either get you reported or make them "create" alternative routes..

 

[langtonhighway]

actually, I think differently. I doubt very much they'd be allowed to create access from their property to anywhere, public ROW or not, without permission from the Council.

It is very hard to get permission for access, even when you own both bits!!

I'd just phone and check, without giving details.

But why don't you want the Council poking around, what are you doing wrong?

 

[maisieblu]

Putting the trailer there would block my driveway as well as their gateway! wouldnt block the footpath however!
Im not doing or going to do anything wrong! Its a fully legal, well run,tidy BHS yard. We get on very well with the council and the ROW guys and have removed branches cleared brambles rounded up their lost dogs, and tidied the damn path up for years now, Im just peeved they can now leap out in the path of oncoming lorries cars and horses from their gateways and then blame us when they get hurt!

 

[Booboos]

I am not sure I understand the situation but if one of the neighbours had no fence at all could they walk straight onto the footpath? If yes what is the difference between that and making an opening in their fence or climbing over their fence to access the footpath?

 

[Spring Feather]

Golly, how busy is the driveway Are you really worried about them crossing the driveway because they might get squooshed? I would have thought most people are capable of crossing a driveway without doing damage to themselves.

 

[PeterNatt]

You need to check the deeds of the houses and the land registry plan for them to determine if their land comes in contact with the public footpath. Even if there is a small amount of land which does not belong to them or the route of the public footpath then they are not allowed direct access to it.

 

[Dubsie]

You might find, if they've applied for planning permission at any point, that in the application is copid the vital bit of plan which shows the boundaries now that most planning permissions are listed on council websites

 

[Adopter]

We are similar in that there is a public foot path up part of our drive and people have no idea how to respect our private property!

Having consulted our solicitor, we have now made sure that the drive is registered with the land registry as our property, so there is no dispute with neighbours whose land it is.

We have the problem that neighbour who only has footpath rights on drive, insists on driving up a short way so they do not have to walk to their door.

The worst part is as you have found, people just do something without the manners to ask you the landowner if you would mind. It might be a good idea to consult your solicitor, as you may need to send a letter to each household agreeing to give them acess as a good neighbour but limiting their rights to the land.

 

[JillA]

If it is a foot path (as opposed to a bridleway or green lane etc) it is against the law to drive a vehicle on it, in the same way it is unlawful to drive on a footpath along the side of a road, even with the landowners permission. You can understand why - pedestrians and vehicles just don't mix. I assume the footpath is along some kind of verge at the side of the vehicular part of your drive, so people and vehicles should really never share the same ground - you could put some kind of demarcation to ensure they stay separate.
As a matter of interest, wasn't the footpath pointed out to you on your LA search when you bought the property, however many years ago that was?

 

[canteron]

I think you have a case to argue here.

A right of way is a right to pass and repass along a given route. Access rights are completely different and have to be gained by 20'years of unchallenged used.

Therefore, assuming they haven't had 20 years of access use you need to do some research and possibly take advice and definitely challenge their access rights.

Could you then grant them permissive right on the basis that they contribute to upkeep. That would give you some protection.

 

[Luci07]

definitely a time that that a photo of a diagram of the access would be helpful. I think everyone who is trying to help is visualising it in a different way?

 

[Cahill]

you need to look at the `definitive map` probably held at the council instead of the OS. the DM should also have a description page with it that describes the width of the path etc

 

[mcnaughty]

I don't think you have any choice but to get the planners involved. Can you not take a copy of the OS plan to the council offices and get a meeting with a planner to discuss? Last time I popped in there to discuss some building work at our offices they were very pleasant and helpful.

Personally I cannot really see the problem but without plans we are all a bit in the dark ... Its not like they are damaging anything by gaining access to a public footpath and by the sounds of it the whole driveway is probably deemed at the "footpath" and not just one edge that you feel would suit your needs.

A couple of signs along the lines of "dogs on leads at all times", "warning large machinery/working farm" and "take your rubbish home as it kills wildlife and farm animals" and "drive slowly" should cover you.

 

[Spudlet]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs, you also have to consider the potential damage you are doing to the relationship you have with your neighbours. Just as you could make their lives difficult (as suggested by some on this thread), so they could do the same to you - if only by giving you the cold shoulder, which is not a nice way to live. In your position, I would start off by talking to the people themselves, not the planners!

 

[indie999]

I would say they dont have access via their properties. What if they plan to use the yard drive to access their gardens in the future by motorised etc. Who owns the footpath? Is it the council or yourselves ie the yard?

However if its quite innocent and they do just want to make it easy to walk then fine, but are they then at risk of being hit by one of the yard vehicles if they step out of their back gardens into the path of ie a yard lorry. Then it may not be so fine.

 

[ebonyallen]

If they have created access from their gardens directly on to the path, then I am sure they are legally entitled to do so. If on the other hand they have accessed the drive in order to get to the footpath, then they can't as it is private property.

I agree with this, they can not do that.

 

[maisieblu]

I have now involved my solicitor who will check on whether the whole drive is supposed to be "footpath" or just the LH side, there is room to seperate [drive and path] if a major trimback happens... from nextdoor! The yard drive is a private access, very often we have to ask people to move cars who have parked in passing areas to take dogs for walks, some even just come into the yard [opening gate] turn around and then park!!! Very annoying as there are, horses, loose dogs, children etc around..they do this even with loads of signs up! Thanks for all your imput....very interesting

 

[Honey08]

I would have no problem whatsoever with people putting gates from their garden onto the footpath. I would, however, have a gate at the end of the drive with a stile next to it - just to clearly show that the drive is private to vehicles and stop the parking in passing places etc. With a sign on saying private drive, footpath only.