Bossanova
Well-Known Member
Poor thing. Knew him as a yearling, he was certainly one of the most exceptionally talented tbs around
RIP George Washington
- Thread starter sleepingdragon10
- Start date
kerilli
Well-Known Member
that's so sad. if he wasn't going well from the start, surely he should have been pulled up? i don't know anything about racing though, obviously!
i really hope this doesn't mean what i suspect it might mean...
"A great horse who failed at stud, hardly came back to race this year, and everything looking so bad yesterday sounds like the cash out option to me. "
i really hope this doesn't mean what i suspect it might mean...
"A great horse who failed at stud, hardly came back to race this year, and everything looking so bad yesterday sounds like the cash out option to me. "
S_N
Well-Known Member
Did you see the pics of his leg? I don't think the owners wanted another Barbaro scenario (I know different owners). It's incredibly sad, but looking at the pics, would have been bloody amazing if he'd been savable!
kerilli
Well-Known Member
yes, saw the pics. wish i hadn't. i agree, and i don't think it's fair putting a horse with such a catastrophic injury through months and months of immobility/box rest etc. tbh that kind of injury on a person would possibly lead to amputation, and people are much better at bed rest than horses.
GTs
Well-Known Member
If Barbaro's had been open he would have been put down too.....
kildalton
Well-Known Member
The cynic in me says at least the owners will get insurance money as he was a no go at stud. What a shame such an enigmatic horse should come to such an end.
Jemayni
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The cynic in me says at least the owners will get insurance money as he was a no go at stud. What a shame such an enigmatic horse should come to such an end.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im sure the insurance company also accounts for the fact that the horses value was relatively minimal in leiu....
All the best racehorses seem to have the most tragic ends.... RIP George washington
The cynic in me says at least the owners will get insurance money as he was a no go at stud. What a shame such an enigmatic horse should come to such an end.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im sure the insurance company also accounts for the fact that the horses value was relatively minimal in leiu....
All the best racehorses seem to have the most tragic ends.... RIP George washington
GTs
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The cynic in me says at least the owners will get insurance money as he was a no go at stud. What a shame such an enigmatic horse should come to such an end.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im sure the insurance company also accounts for the fact that the horses value was relatively minimal in leiu....
All the best racehorses seem to have the most tragic ends.... RIP George washington
[/ QUOTE ]
He had not been written off as a stud (no insurance had been paid for infertility); he was going to go back to stud this year, slightly different set up, more time, etc. His insurance premiums were probably paid just under a year ago, which is part of the reason their is rumblings about if he followed in Alydar shoes.
[ QUOTE ]
The cynic in me says at least the owners will get insurance money as he was a no go at stud. What a shame such an enigmatic horse should come to such an end.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im sure the insurance company also accounts for the fact that the horses value was relatively minimal in leiu....
All the best racehorses seem to have the most tragic ends.... RIP George washington
[/ QUOTE ]
He had not been written off as a stud (no insurance had been paid for infertility); he was going to go back to stud this year, slightly different set up, more time, etc. His insurance premiums were probably paid just under a year ago, which is part of the reason their is rumblings about if he followed in Alydar shoes.
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
A great horse who failed at stud, hardly came back to race this year, and everything looking so bad yesterday sounds like the cash out option to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
He ran only one time less than in previous years. Each time in a Grade 1. His first run back he was far too free but was still only beaten less than half a length. His second runs back he again ran far too free, especially to post. He was beaten a length and a half by Notnowcato, no mean performer who steered a cunning path at the other side of the track, and a head by the Derby winner Authorised. His third run was a mess, he was too far off the pace and came up with a blistering turn of foot to make up ground on the leaders, but not in time for the line.
His fourth run was sadly the final one. But I am gobsmacked and apalled that you can say it was the cash option. I know Coolmore are all powerful, but even they can't control the weather. Or the injury. Or the degree of it.
George was always difficult before and after races. He needed to be boxed in to go to post in the guineas, and didn't go into the winners enclosure after he won because he was so wound. Just because he was fractious before the race was no indication that he shouldn't have been there, it was normal.
With a horse of the temperament of George, bringing him back from covering was no mean feat. he was covering in March and ran in June.
If they were going to pull the insurance stunt and it was all about money, ( which as yet they had no reason to do so, IMO, other stallions have initially had poor fertility and gotten decent foals on the ground) do you really think they'd ship the poor bloody horse all the way to America to have a global public car crash like that? Would you be saying the same if it was Dylan Thomas, because he was run on ground he'd hate after a hard race in the Arc?? Of course not. But both horses went there for precisely the same reason, to have a crack at winning a Breeder's cup.
A O'B is a genius, and genuinely cares for and respects his serious horses. There has never been anything but admiration and affection whenever he has talked about George. To imply what you have, in a snide remark such as that, implicates him in your inferred 'theory'.
Both the horse and Aiden deserve far more respect than your highly inapproriate remarks give them.
A great horse who failed at stud, hardly came back to race this year, and everything looking so bad yesterday sounds like the cash out option to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
He ran only one time less than in previous years. Each time in a Grade 1. His first run back he was far too free but was still only beaten less than half a length. His second runs back he again ran far too free, especially to post. He was beaten a length and a half by Notnowcato, no mean performer who steered a cunning path at the other side of the track, and a head by the Derby winner Authorised. His third run was a mess, he was too far off the pace and came up with a blistering turn of foot to make up ground on the leaders, but not in time for the line.
His fourth run was sadly the final one. But I am gobsmacked and apalled that you can say it was the cash option. I know Coolmore are all powerful, but even they can't control the weather. Or the injury. Or the degree of it.
George was always difficult before and after races. He needed to be boxed in to go to post in the guineas, and didn't go into the winners enclosure after he won because he was so wound. Just because he was fractious before the race was no indication that he shouldn't have been there, it was normal.
With a horse of the temperament of George, bringing him back from covering was no mean feat. he was covering in March and ran in June.
If they were going to pull the insurance stunt and it was all about money, ( which as yet they had no reason to do so, IMO, other stallions have initially had poor fertility and gotten decent foals on the ground) do you really think they'd ship the poor bloody horse all the way to America to have a global public car crash like that? Would you be saying the same if it was Dylan Thomas, because he was run on ground he'd hate after a hard race in the Arc?? Of course not. But both horses went there for precisely the same reason, to have a crack at winning a Breeder's cup.
A O'B is a genius, and genuinely cares for and respects his serious horses. There has never been anything but admiration and affection whenever he has talked about George. To imply what you have, in a snide remark such as that, implicates him in your inferred 'theory'.
Both the horse and Aiden deserve far more respect than your highly inapproriate remarks give them.
lucym
Well-Known Member
well said
GTs
Well-Known Member
It is not merely me who has suggest this scenerio, but there are quite a few rumblings about it. It boggles my mind why they would put him in the BCC to begin with, he is not a dirt horse, this years competition was far more established than the ones last year, where he did not do particularly well either.
Last year after running in the Breeders Cup Classic he was insured for a significant amount, all things considered his value after failing at stud is probably minimal compared to what he was insured for last year.
He looked awful in the race no two questions about it, even the announcer commented on it.
Racing is not a pretty game, look at Alydar, look at Biaconne's snake venom (and then other high profile trainers going on 'cold streaks'), Curlin's owners fraud case. In this game people cheat, people think they are above the law.
Last year after running in the Breeders Cup Classic he was insured for a significant amount, all things considered his value after failing at stud is probably minimal compared to what he was insured for last year.
He looked awful in the race no two questions about it, even the announcer commented on it.
Racing is not a pretty game, look at Alydar, look at Biaconne's snake venom (and then other high profile trainers going on 'cold streaks'), Curlin's owners fraud case. In this game people cheat, people think they are above the law.
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
He ran a blinder in the Eclipse, he got the trip, why not have a go at the BCC? It's the richest race on the card.
I just watched the Classic again.....he looked well beforehand, he jumped well, he was in the first five, and then it all went wrong. As is often the case in these injuries, he probably went wrong when Mick had to start to push, but his guts, adrenalin and the state of the track would have made it hard to decide if he was wrong or not. Until the bones broke.
There are always rumblings about money men, but you seriously know very little about Coolmore if you suggest that this was engineered. Even if it was possible. One can also hardly compare a fit horse running competitively in a race on the world stage, to one who helpfully and mysteriously shattered a hind leg behind closed doors in a barn.
As for being insured after last years Breeders Cup, what are you saying??
That this was the plan a year in the hatching? Make him infertile, bring him back again, have him run really well considering what he's been through, bring him to America, commission a rainstorm, and have the limb interfered enough with to ensure he'll fracture it on global screening?
I am quite well versed with the ins and outs of racing, I've been involved in it and worked in it. I wouldn't mention any of these other guys in the same breath as Aiden O'Brien.
I just watched the Classic again.....he looked well beforehand, he jumped well, he was in the first five, and then it all went wrong. As is often the case in these injuries, he probably went wrong when Mick had to start to push, but his guts, adrenalin and the state of the track would have made it hard to decide if he was wrong or not. Until the bones broke.
There are always rumblings about money men, but you seriously know very little about Coolmore if you suggest that this was engineered. Even if it was possible. One can also hardly compare a fit horse running competitively in a race on the world stage, to one who helpfully and mysteriously shattered a hind leg behind closed doors in a barn.
As for being insured after last years Breeders Cup, what are you saying??
I am quite well versed with the ins and outs of racing, I've been involved in it and worked in it. I wouldn't mention any of these other guys in the same breath as Aiden O'Brien.
GTs
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
He ran a blinder in the Eclipse, he got the trip, why not have a go at the BCC?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because he is not a dirt horse - last years field was much easier than this, and he did nothing back then.
[ QUOTE ]
I just watched the Classic again.....he looked well beforehand, he jumped well, he was in the first five, and then it all went wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
He was being ridden, while all the other horses were rated to just stay in the top five.
[ QUOTE ]
As for being insured after last years Breeders Cup, what are you saying??
That this was the plan a year in the hatching?
[/ QUOTE ]
I am saying he has a couple weeks or a month insured at a much higher level than he would have been underwritten for this year.
Hopefully he was not - but all things considered he did not look good initially, he broke down, and his insurance is about to expire.
He ran a blinder in the Eclipse, he got the trip, why not have a go at the BCC?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because he is not a dirt horse - last years field was much easier than this, and he did nothing back then.
[ QUOTE ]
I just watched the Classic again.....he looked well beforehand, he jumped well, he was in the first five, and then it all went wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
He was being ridden, while all the other horses were rated to just stay in the top five.
[ QUOTE ]
As for being insured after last years Breeders Cup, what are you saying??
[/ QUOTE ]
I am saying he has a couple weeks or a month insured at a much higher level than he would have been underwritten for this year.
Hopefully he was not - but all things considered he did not look good initially, he broke down, and his insurance is about to expire.
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
So all trainers who have a crack at the Classic with turf horses are out to destroy them? (I seem to remember Giant's Causeway running well)
He did start to weaken, but I surmised why earlier. Obviously an assumption, but more realistic than yours.
And the insurance would be for him as a stallion, I assume, not a racehorse, so your conjecture is way off. Unless you are privy to the policies and details, of course.
He did start to weaken, but I surmised why earlier. Obviously an assumption, but more realistic than yours.
And the insurance would be for him as a stallion, I assume, not a racehorse, so your conjecture is way off. Unless you are privy to the policies and details, of course.
Lord_Horatio_Nelson
Well-Known Member
I had heard that John Magnier / Coolmore horses are rarely insured for racing. When they go to stud, they take out insurance for fertility and mortality purposes.
Unless GTs knows different???
Unless GTs knows different???
GTs
Well-Known Member
He showed nothing on the turf last year against an easier field, so it wasn't really a 'let's try the dirt'.
You're average race horse is rarely insured, even the top ones are under insured. When they go to stud they are generally insured for mortality/fertility, therefore he was likely insured for a considerable sum!
You're average race horse is rarely insured, even the top ones are under insured. When they go to stud they are generally insured for mortality/fertility, therefore he was likely insured for a considerable sum!
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
He showed nothing on the turf last year
[/ QUOTE ]
Bless him, that's 'cos he didn't run.
[ QUOTE ]
You're average race horse is rarely insured, even the top ones are under insured. When they go to stud they are generally insured for mortality/fertility, therefore he was likely insured for a considerable sum!
[/ QUOTE ]
Likely, average racehorse, .........get a grip..........
He showed nothing on the turf last year
[/ QUOTE ]
Bless him, that's 'cos he didn't run.
[ QUOTE ]
You're average race horse is rarely insured, even the top ones are under insured. When they go to stud they are generally insured for mortality/fertility, therefore he was likely insured for a considerable sum!
[/ QUOTE ]
Likely, average racehorse, .........get a grip..........
Vicki_Krystal
Well-Known Member
absolutly tragic end to this horses life.
such a shame.
sweet dreams george w xxxxxx
such a shame.
sweet dreams george w xxxxxx
hadfos
Well-Known Member
I was discusted by the track conditions,honestly cannot understand why they thought of running a turf horse in that slop,he was bound to back off with mud in his face,he started off well and when he moved in and had other horses in front of him the dirt slapped him in the face and he said noo!He kept going soo obviously not liking it he should have been pulled up,but with 5million dollars at stake who is going to do that!!I understand how aob feels about the horse but i think the wrong decision was made to run both him and dylan thomas,who also hated the going!Such AMAZING horses looked outclassed due to horrible conditions,they flat horses not NH!!!God bless you GW you gave me some awesome race watching!!RIP you stunning boy!!
GTs
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're average race horse is rarely insured, even the top ones are under insured. When they go to stud they are generally insured for mortality/fertility, therefore he was likely insured for a considerable sum!
[/ QUOTE ]
Likely, average racehorse, .........get a grip..........
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
Did you read past the first seven words?
All I can say, the timing coinciding with the insurance renewl, the way the horse ran, and the race he was in leaves an awful lot of question.
I know when I worked in racing, the guy I worked for would never have let a horse who was moving so poorly run, especially in that race, on a surface the horse does not like, in those conditions.
[ QUOTE ]
You're average race horse is rarely insured, even the top ones are under insured. When they go to stud they are generally insured for mortality/fertility, therefore he was likely insured for a considerable sum!
[/ QUOTE ]
Likely, average racehorse, .........get a grip..........
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
Did you read past the first seven words?
All I can say, the timing coinciding with the insurance renewl, the way the horse ran, and the race he was in leaves an awful lot of question.
I know when I worked in racing, the guy I worked for would never have let a horse who was moving so poorly run, especially in that race, on a surface the horse does not like, in those conditions.
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
I agree it was a bad decision to run both of them. But by the same token it was a bad decision to run any of the horses in the race, except the first three. I'd like to think if I was in their shoes I'd have said no, don't run, but until I am, I cannot say that with any certainty.
BUT, they are racehorses, and the decisions may have paid off. Sadly, and tragically for George, they went horribly wrong. I think it is shallow and cheap to take potshots with hindsight.
I still think you are talking rubbish and insulting both the horse and A O'B, implying it was an insurance scam.
It was also a bad decision to run Landseer, a few years ago, and Horatio in last year's Derby. It is a horrible fact of racing, that horses are killed. so unless, as I said before, you are privy to the proof, you are just badmouthing a wonderful horse and an exceptional trainer.
I find it revolting that people have to wave conspiracy theories about in such a ridiculous manner. You compared it to Alydar, and there is no comparison.
Gorgeous George was a unique, exciting and breathtaking horse. I always had such a thrill watching him run, never quite knowing how his quirks were going to manifest themselves.
I am not going to sully his memory any longer by continuing a pointless argument with you. I'll leave you in your uncharitable world of skulduggery and cheats, and get back to mine where although I feel raw and gutted for the horse and his connections, I know that he had a fantastic life and gave a lot of people a lot of pleasure. And I look forward to the next year of watching an superb trainer handle his fragile charges with genius and respect.
RIP Gorgeous George.
BUT, they are racehorses, and the decisions may have paid off. Sadly, and tragically for George, they went horribly wrong. I think it is shallow and cheap to take potshots with hindsight.
I still think you are talking rubbish and insulting both the horse and A O'B, implying it was an insurance scam.
It was also a bad decision to run Landseer, a few years ago, and Horatio in last year's Derby. It is a horrible fact of racing, that horses are killed. so unless, as I said before, you are privy to the proof, you are just badmouthing a wonderful horse and an exceptional trainer.
I find it revolting that people have to wave conspiracy theories about in such a ridiculous manner. You compared it to Alydar, and there is no comparison.
Gorgeous George was a unique, exciting and breathtaking horse. I always had such a thrill watching him run, never quite knowing how his quirks were going to manifest themselves.
I am not going to sully his memory any longer by continuing a pointless argument with you. I'll leave you in your uncharitable world of skulduggery and cheats, and get back to mine where although I feel raw and gutted for the horse and his connections, I know that he had a fantastic life and gave a lot of people a lot of pleasure. And I look forward to the next year of watching an superb trainer handle his fragile charges with genius and respect.
RIP Gorgeous George.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
The problem is when people take risks with horses and it comes off they're heroes, but when it doesn't they're villains. I'm not saying this wasn't a horrible end to a lovely horse but I'm amazed at all the second guessing I've read. So many people behave as if they've never put a horse at risk or made a decision that in HINDSIGHT turns out to have unforseen consequences, or otherwise endangered a horse, knowingly or otherwise. This horse went back to the track because he couldn't go to his second career, not because anyone meant him harm. What else would they have done with him? He wasn't retired because of an injury, he was retired because that was they plan. It didn't work so they made another one. What about geldings? Should John Henry have stopped racing just because other horses his age went to the breeding shed?
I saw a grey mare, One Dreamer, win the Distaff is 1994. She was in mostly because her people sponsored the race and went off at 47:1, which should tell you how much she belonged there. It was an amazing race, perhaps the most fun I've ever seen. She went off like a streak and, to everyone's shock, didn't run out of gas as expected. The favourite's jockey, sure she'd blow up and come back to him no doubt, left his move to late and One Dreamer pounded down the stretch on her stubby little legs, with her eyes screwed shut and her teeth gritted, holding her neck in front 'till the wire. It was amazing to watch. The mare bounced all over the track on her way back to the circle, both her and her jock (Gary Stevens, before he found real fame at the movies
) looking like all their Christmases had come at once. Brilliant.
But that mare was outclassed and I'm sure many people thought running her there was a huge risk. Hence the odds. But the risk came off so they were heroes.
Do we have the right to take risks with horses? Now that's a contentious conversation!! But the fact is we all do, everyday. It's so sad to read intentional evil into what was a tragic end to a great horse.
I saw a grey mare, One Dreamer, win the Distaff is 1994. She was in mostly because her people sponsored the race and went off at 47:1, which should tell you how much she belonged there. It was an amazing race, perhaps the most fun I've ever seen. She went off like a streak and, to everyone's shock, didn't run out of gas as expected. The favourite's jockey, sure she'd blow up and come back to him no doubt, left his move to late and One Dreamer pounded down the stretch on her stubby little legs, with her eyes screwed shut and her teeth gritted, holding her neck in front 'till the wire. It was amazing to watch. The mare bounced all over the track on her way back to the circle, both her and her jock (Gary Stevens, before he found real fame at the movies
But that mare was outclassed and I'm sure many people thought running her there was a huge risk. Hence the odds. But the risk came off so they were heroes.
Do we have the right to take risks with horses? Now that's a contentious conversation!! But the fact is we all do, everyday. It's so sad to read intentional evil into what was a tragic end to a great horse.
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
Nicely put, Cruiser.
I don't remember One Dreamer, we didn't get the TV coverage over here in those days, but I do remember a horse called Norton's Coin winning the Cheltenham Gold cup at 100-1. He was only entered because the trainer, Sirrell Griffiths had missed the deadline for a handicap he was supposed to have run in at the same meeting!!
Sirrell got up in the morning and milked his cows before drivng Norton's Coin in the lorry to Cheltenham. He broke the track record, and beat Dessie! What an achievement!
I don't remember One Dreamer, we didn't get the TV coverage over here in those days, but I do remember a horse called Norton's Coin winning the Cheltenham Gold cup at 100-1. He was only entered because the trainer, Sirrell Griffiths had missed the deadline for a handicap he was supposed to have run in at the same meeting!!
Sirrell got up in the morning and milked his cows before drivng Norton's Coin in the lorry to Cheltenham. He broke the track record, and beat Dessie! What an achievement!
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
As an add on, Jim Bolger, was quoted as saying after paying tribute to George Washington yesterday:
''His legacy, apart from being a very exciting champion, will be that from now on Breeders' Cups will only be run on Polytrack. ''
Well lets hope that is a fact.
''His legacy, apart from being a very exciting champion, will be that from now on Breeders' Cups will only be run on Polytrack. ''
Well lets hope that is a fact.
lucym
Well-Known Member
can we leave the arguing now- unfortunately hes gone, and not coming back.A O'B is a genius, George was a superstar, and its utterly rediculous to imply that coolmore planned any of it, or are happy at the outcome. Lets just leave George to rest in peace, his death has hit alot of people hard as he was so widely adored due to his talent and character, its unfair to stir up hatred aginst A O'B and coolmore in the wake of it. I know some people have a problem with Ballydoyle but now is not the time.
RIP Georgeous George, you will never be forgotten
RIP Georgeous George, you will never be forgotten
GTs
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As an add on, Jim Bolger, was quoted as saying after paying tribute to George Washington yesterday:
''His legacy, apart from being a very exciting champion, will be that from now on Breeders' Cups will only be run on Polytrack. ''
Well lets hope that is a fact.
[/ QUOTE ]
It does not seem polytrack is doing that well this year - look at Del Mar and Keeneland.
As an add on, Jim Bolger, was quoted as saying after paying tribute to George Washington yesterday:
''His legacy, apart from being a very exciting champion, will be that from now on Breeders' Cups will only be run on Polytrack. ''
Well lets hope that is a fact.
[/ QUOTE ]
It does not seem polytrack is doing that well this year - look at Del Mar and Keeneland.
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
Why? I don't know enough about American racing, I don't watch it as it is mostly betting fodder, IMO. But out of interest I googled to see what I could find, and the consensus is seemingly in favour of Polytrack.
I just read this link, and it seems to have stopped fatalities at Del Mar?
http://www.sacbee.com/362/v-print/story/335948.html
And this which seems to statistically prove an improvement for the horses?
http://ww2.keeneland.com/Pictures/PDFs/2007SpringPDFforweb.pdf
What am I missing?
I just read this link, and it seems to have stopped fatalities at Del Mar?
http://www.sacbee.com/362/v-print/story/335948.html
And this which seems to statistically prove an improvement for the horses?
http://ww2.keeneland.com/Pictures/PDFs/2007SpringPDFforweb.pdf
What am I missing?
GTs
Well-Known Member
That horses are still breaking down at the same rate as before - 2 broke down on Keenelands opening day, and owners, and trainers left Del Mar in droves as it was running so badly! It's a new fad, really has not been proven yet.
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
It's used with success over here, but I can't comment on what you say as I don't know.
GTs
Well-Known Member
Search under turfway, and temp swings with polytrack. Turfway had theirs in balls, San Diego had theirs hard and dusty.