RIP Kauto Star

And actually, it's none of our business. We don't own horsey superstars, any more than we own celebrities. We don't need to know everything. And we certainly don't need to make allegations, conjectures, suppositions, when no one can know everything, unless they are the ones directly involved.
I'm impressed KS was considered worthy of main news on radio and tv, and saddened that he has died, but I don't need to know the 'inside story'.
 
wildhorses said:
I don't understand why they tried to keep him going for so long. Either of the injuries sustained would have been enough for most horses to be put down, both together what chance was there? Even is the accident was deemed recoverable the treatment would most likely be awful and include a period of being cross tied. Why would anyone put a retired horse through all that? The horse didn't owe anyone a thing. Why did they not have the decency to end his suffering as soon as the full extent of the injuries were known?
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This exactly, he owed nobody anything, why the hell put him through that.

Accidents happen with horses no matter how careful we are and we all live with that day to day and no doubt have experience of it from a tiny over reach to a broken leg if unlucky. What I don't and can't condone is letting him deteriorate to the stage of being unable to sit up, what a dreadful undignified end for any horse let alone a star like him.

Vets treat what they see but not all of them add in compassion as well I'm afraid. I would never personally even consider cross tying a retired horse with a fracture, it is painful and risky with a guarded long term prognosis.
 
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ester said:
I'm sorry but I don't think any horse (or animal) should be kept going so someone can say goodbye!
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That's not what I was saying - you're misunderstood me. I meant, given the horse's injuries I'm surprised they weren't told when it happened, so they could come and see him in hopsital. Whatever the gripes between them and the owner it would seem the right thing to do to me.

At no point did I say they should have kept the horse alive and suffering so they could say their goodbyes.

EDIT - having read the Racing Post article which suggests there was a possible second incident, after the initial injuries following an accident " that those responsible for the 15-year-old are unable to explain", I too am confused about what actually happened. How does a horse have that many injuries falling in the field? I just feel very sorry for all involved - it makes you realise how fragile horses actually are.
 
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Ah sorry, I don't think, as per the link Michen posted that they really knew the extent of his injuries/that it was likely to lead to a rapid need to PTS so perhaps didn't see the need at the time to speak to them, though easy to say in hindsight.
 
Bonkers2 said:
The horse was not put to sleep straight away, and the owner has a bit of an agenda to overcome, an agenda which is all of his own making, that is why there is speculation.
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Maybe so,
But there are definitely bigger issues in the news that warrant more thought than an ex racehorse being put down, however sad it is.
 
As I said earlier he was treated by a qualified veterinary surgeon. In my experience the Vet will advise the owner on the likely prognosis. The Vet who visited the horse on the day knows what the situation was at that time. A bunch of people on a forum with a bee in their bonnet know nothing!!
It is not uncommon for the full extent of injuries to remain undiscovered at initial examination - whether horse or human.
At the end of the day the horse belonged to Clive Smith and the decision re his future post retirement is down to the owner.
For those saying he should have gone hunting, we currently have 2 ex- racehorses (both of whom have raced over fences who both find hunting nothing but a major stress and do not enjoy it at all! So it is not the answer for every ex-racehorse!
 
Doormouse said:
This exactly, he owed nobody anything, why the hell put him through that.

Accidents happen with horses no matter how careful we are and we all live with that day to day and no doubt have experience of it from a tiny over reach to a broken leg if unlucky. What I don't and can't condone is letting him deteriorate to the stage of being unable to sit up, what a dreadful undignified end for any horse let alone a star like him.

Vets treat what they see but not all of them add in compassion as well I'm afraid. I would never personally even consider cross tying a retired horse with a fracture, it is painful and risky with a guarded long term prognosis.
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Have you read the link Michen posted, they didn't know of the fracture straight away, but treated it as was in case until they could scan it (haemorrhage (which they mention) and swelling at the time can make imaging difficult straight after- they could see a fracture but not the details of it on the saturday lunchtime. I might not have then sent him to the hospital but can understand why they did/thought it would be the best for him as they really didn't know what was going on/why he deteriorated - and like is suggested he may have looked better on the hind than he should due to nerve damage.
 
There is now a very different account to that which was 1st issued about Kauto's last few days on The Racing Post website. I fail to understand why such a revered horse wasn't thoroughly examined by the very best vets available immediately it was noticed he had a "graze on his flank" especially as Laura Collett had no idea how he had acquired the injury. All us equine owners know that something which appears minor at the outset can quickly become major when the cause of an injury is not known. It is no wonder there are rumours flying about as to how his injury happened, when, intentionally or otherwise misleading accounts have been released. I don't think we'll ever find out the whole truth as to how Kauto got injured, the fact remains that this wonderful horse met a very sad end. I feel extremely privileged to have seen both Arkle and Kauto race in the flesh. It is regrettable that NH nowadays seems to attract a very different type of owner to the majority of those in years gone by.
 
Reading the most recent Racing Post article, the horse was examined by a vet as soon as they discovered the injury, and the vet suspected a fractured pelvis, at which point the horse was put in cross-ties at his yard. As per the vet's statement in the article and the comments of posters in this thread who have had horses with that type of injury, this is the standard operating procedure. What more do you want?
 
I agree with Caol Ila. As I read this thread and the first RP article it sounded exactly the same as my horse who injured himself in the paddock in front of me and had a suspected pelvic fracture and/or neck injury. When I read the second more detailed RP article I had tears in my eyes for them and KS, the gradual worsening, cross ties, poss laminitis etc all fits. At the time with my horse I googled a lot and for those of you with suspicious minds I assure you I found loads of stories similar or the same as what has been described. Search wobblers /paddock accident/ pelvic fractures.

RIP Kauto Star So sad
 
Many of us will have seen severe injuries that happened in the field .
You often don't know how it happened , how can you unless you sit watching them the whole time .
 
ester said:
Have you read the link Michen posted, they didn't know of the fracture straight away, but treated it as was in case until they could scan it (haemorrhage (which they mention) and swelling at the time can make imaging difficult straight after- they could see a fracture but not the details of it on the saturday lunchtime. I might not have then sent him to the hospital but can understand why they did/thought it would be the best for him as they really didn't know what was going on/why he deteriorated - and like is suggested he may have looked better on the hind than he should due to nerve damage.
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I did read it and although I appreciate the pelvic injury situation I cannot see how he was allowed to deteriorate to the point where he couldn't sit up, a very undignified end. He clearly went down on cross ties twice, once would have been enough for me to pull the pins, then he was travelled, then he spent at least 36 hours detoriating before finally they pts. Those 36 hours sound awful for him and I believe there comes a point that no matter what science and diagnostics are in place, people should be able to make a fair decision for a horse based on what they can see with their own eyes.
 
That second article is a very sad read - poor horse, makes me feel a bit sick imagining him not even being able to sit up. I think what Vet Lawrence says makes sense, although when it mentions him going down in the cross ties it did also make me wonder if the broken neck actually could have happened then, which if so would be pretty awful. Who knows - but at the same time I'm sure that no one connected with him would have intentionality allowed him to suffer. Here is a classic case of "if only they could talk", which I'm sure all of us have gone through at some point, trying to understand what is going on with our horses. Very sad. I don't think the owner does himself many favours in this article though
http://www.racingpost.com/news/hors...907969/related/#newsArchiveTabs=last7DaysNews
There is a time and a place to put personal issues aside I think, this situation being case in point. I feel Clive Smith should have manned up a bit and spoken to Paul Nicholas himself. I think Laura Collett is taking a lot of pretty unfair criticism tbh.
 
The statement from the vets in today's Racing Post is one of the most distressing articles of its kind I have ever read. Heart-breaking and left me in tears.
 
Daffodil said:
The statement from the vets in today's Racing Post is one of the most distressing articles of its kind I have ever read. Heart-breaking and left me in tears.
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Me too. But I don't think that anyone did anything wrong, they were all acting in the best interests of the horse. We know how good horses are at hurting themselves. Think of Mr. Frisk who was the most flamboyant racehorse, and then broke his leg out on a hack.

What a sad end for Kauto Star.
 
BlueSocks said:
That second article is a very sad read - poor horse, …….. . I think Laura Collett is taking a lot of pretty unfair criticism tbh.
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Considering that LC would have been acting under instruction, and also considering that the decisions were most probably taken by the horse's owner, I agree with you. It would be interesting to hear of her innermost thoughts, and from the outset, but that's unlikely to happen.

Further, 'IF' the quotes attributed to Smith are factual, then Nicholls didn't help the situation either. In a post elsewhere, I said that the egos of those involved in the life of KS were such that there was never going to be any level of accord or decency, which is to be expected, and sad too. I'm becoming ever more certain!

One question, and whilst not wishing to add to the uproar, I was surprised to read the quote that KS, whilst cross-tied 'must-have' (their words) gone down (presumably in the night), and couldn't regain his feet. Considering the national interest in the horse and his world-wide standing, I'm staggered that he wasn't under constant surveillance. Also, considering the horse's winnings alone, would it have been so difficult to pay a night-watcher eighty quid a night to sit up and watch a screen? With each and every apparently sanctioned press release, the events following the initial fall, seem to reveal a worsening story and one approaching neglect. Being wise, after the event is a pointless argument in this case. Perhaps I'm wrong.

In my opinion, no one involved with this horse comes up smelling of roses, and I'm wondering if The Morning Line stance will be as we'd expect of them, with the quoted reports being arranged to make an ameliorating and pointless response. We'll see!

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
One question, and whilst not wishing to add to the uproar, I was surprised to read the quote that KS, whilst cross-tied 'must-have' (their words) gone down (presumably in the night), and couldn't regain his feet. Considering the national interest in the horse and his world-wide standing, I'm staggered that he wasn't under constant surveillance.
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This is quite shocking (assuming it's true)! :eek3:
 
The veterinary report quoted makes sense but I agree with Alec that under the circumstances it seems sad the horse wasn't being watched all the time - for exactly the reason that he might go down in the cross ties and that as the extent and complete nature of his injuries were not at that point known, further damage could be caused. Considering the proportion of horse-owners/trainers etc that would ensure a colicking horse, for example, was watched through the night, it wouldn't seem unreasonable that Kauto Star may have had someone with him, just in case.

It is just desperately sad and no matter what the truth of much of Kauto Star's recent history, it does seem like a PR disaster. Let us all hope that in time, it is Kauto Star's extraordinary life that we remember, not his very sad death.
 
Hindsight is 20/20.

A horse at a barn I used to board at broke her leg and was cross-tied in her stall; she had to be prevented from going down at all costs. And she had to be on her feet in the cross-ties for at least two months. A few weeks into treatment, when it all seemed to be going well, the horse went down in the cross-ties and had to be euthed.

It's not like a colicky horse that needs to be watched for one or two nights. You're looking at a couple months. I suppose with the kind of money Kauto's people have, it's more feasible than it is for Average Joe Horse Owner, but it's unfair to say they were neglectful in not doing it. Many people don't.
 
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Caol Ila said:
Hindsight is 20/20.

A horse at a barn I used to board at broke her leg and was cross-tied in her stall; she had to be prevented from going down at all costs. And she had to be on her feet in the cross-ties for at least two months. A few weeks into treatment, when it all seemed to be going well, the horse went down in the cross-ties and had to be euthed.

It's not like a colicky horse that needs to be watched for one or two nights. You're looking at a couple months. I suppose with the kind of money Kauto's people have, it's more feasible than it is for Average Joe Horse Owner, but it's unfair to say they were neglectful in not doing it. Many people don't.
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Sorry, I didn't mean that he should be watched indefinitely/potentially for months as that clearly is difficult, but certainly whilst the nature and extent of his injuries were being assessed: i.e for a few days. As we all know too, horses are all individual in their response to treatment/box rest/cross-tying etc and that would have to be a part of the assessment as to whether treatment is viable. I know that in my own case, the horse's ability to cope with treatment/confinement/rehab has been a deciding factor sadly.

I am quite sure that everyone has had the best of intentions and it is very easy to be wise in hindsight. Purely from a personal perspective I would not cross-tie an injured, precious and certainly usually sharp horse without constant observation in the initial assessment period. What would be the point of doing this with the hope of stabilising an injury if there is no-one on hand to try to ensure that the horse doesn't go down if at all possible? It is surprising to me that if the report is correct, that this wasn't the case.
 
The whole thing is very sad.

I suppose it is possible that even if he was being watched, if he was in that much pain standing he went down despite their efforts to keep him up, especially if they were on their own. This could even (unfairly) be where the "incompetent groom" rumour came from.

My granddad has alzheimers and occasionally on the way to the bathroom decides he can't walk any more and just sits down there and then on the floor, despite being accompanied / helped by at least one person. If he tries to do that's there's no way you can stop him and he weighs 1/10th of a horse Kauto's size so I can see how it would be very difficult to keep him up if he was desperate to go down.

I can also see how this could have displaced the neck injury - after all - any of us unlucky enough to suffer a riding injury, particularly concussion, that required and ambulance will recall just how much effort they make not to move you and how they always assume the worst for necks even if you show no symptoms or have no pain in that area. I think it's entirely plausible that they weren't aware of the neck injury because the pelvis was causing more pain/symptoms, until it became displaced and then caused the neurological problems.

I'm not a fan of racing. I'm not anti-it, just don't follow it but even I knew how special this boy was. RIP Kauto
 
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Caol Ila said:
Hindsight is 20/20.

…….. , but it's unfair to say they were neglectful in not doing it. Many people don't.
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Considering the attendant wealth, and were the horse mine, then he would not have gone one single minute without surveillance. Is criticism, considering the hopefully reliable quotes 'Unfair'? Honestly? I only read from the RP posts which quote those who attended to the horse. 'Neglectful'? We'll draw our own conclusions, I suspect. It defies any reason to suggest there was any degree of neglect, but as the 'quotes' and following questions seem to continue, so do the doubts.

There are so many anomalies attached to this sorry story.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Considering the attendant wealth, and were the horse mine, then he would not have gone one single minute without surveillance. Is criticism, considering the hopefully reliable quotes 'Unfair'? Honestly? I only read from the RP posts which quote those who attended to the horse. 'Neglectful'? We'll draw our own conclusions, I suspect. It defies any reason to suggest there was any degree of neglect, but as the 'quotes' and following questions seem to continue, so do the doubts.

There are so many anomalies attached to this sorry story.

Alec.
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I couldn't agree more.
 
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