RIP Mark, amputee soldier thrown from mount at Help for Heroes event

If it had been a docile type but the same accident would we be going on so much about this?? Not being nasty just turning it on its head.

Not all ex-racers are loonies, they may be ex's because they were too docile ;)

If this had been a cob or similar quiet horse it would still be a tragedy but i dont think people would be condeming the organisers so much IMO :)
 
kerilli said:
You think? Seriously?
IF the bare facts have been reported correctly (1 hour's experience of riding and then put on an ex-racer for a big event with lots going on) then I think a lot of horsey people would agree that that was potentially a recipe for disaster.
If I was told I absolutely had to find a mount for such a rider with 1 hour's experience, then a rock-solid proven RDA horse or similar (and I've worked with them, I'm a qualified RDA instructor, some of those horses and ponies are bona fide SAINTS) would be the only thing I would consider, and even then I would be dubious.
the thing is, you think you can control a situation when you're leading a horse and you're experienced etc... but sometimes you just can't. 1/2 a tonne of horse is basically going to do what it wants, IF it wants to... :( :( :(
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Errrm, not sure I actually say anywhere that it was safe to put the guy on this horse with an hours training, however, does it matter whether he was on a race-horse or a 'plod'? They are basically wild and any one of them could throw a wobbler, I would suspect that, at the time, the military (who appear to have been involved in the training) felt that it was ok, we were not there, we do not know what the process was or how they arrived at the decisions made, tragically they got it wrong, but have learned the lesson, unfortunately 99 times out of 100 a tragedy has to occur before things are changed regardless of peoples experience, knowledge, training, and so on!

Booboos said:
Far be it from me to defend the Daily Fail, but I hardly see why the H&H report is any different. Surely they don't need a death and an inquest to conclude that horses should be matched to the rider's ability!!! Learning the lesson is the least they could do now!
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More a comment on the posts that were saying, 'we hope lessons have been learned, etc' as it says in the report they had been.

I still refer to my previous posts, if anyone had told Mark he couldn't do this I can imagine his reaction!

And FFS I have said it's bloody tragic but that doesn't stop me trying to look at things without being clouded by emotions!
 
VoR said:
however, does it matter whether he was on a race-horse or a 'plod'? They are basically wild and any one of them could throw a wobbler,

And FFS I have said it's bloody tragic but that doesn't stop me trying to look at things without being clouded by emotions!
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I'm not being emotional at all. do you really honestly think that a 'plod' is just as likely to do something like that as an ex-racehorse?
of course ANY horse could do such a thing, but the fact is that certain types are far less likely to... ergo 'plod'...

somebody, presumably someone experienced, made a HUGE miscalculation here, and someone very inexperienced with horses paid the ultimate price. i call that tragic. and stupid.
 
VoR said:
Errrm, not sure I actually say anywhere that it was safe to put the guy on this horse with an hours training, however, does it matter whether he was on a race-horse or a 'plod'? They are basically wild and any one of them could throw a wobbler, I would suspect that, at the time, the military (who appear to have been involved in the training) felt that it was ok, we were not there, we do not know what the process was or how they arrived at the decisions made, tragically they got it wrong, but have learned the lesson, unfortunately 99 times out of 100 a tragedy has to occur before things are changed regardless of peoples experience, knowledge, training, and so on!
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Ermmm yes it does!!! Otherwise the RDA would plonk its riders in just any horse, an unbroken youngster, a TB just out of racing or an advanced eventer about to go cross country!! Of course all horses might throw a wobbler, but some are just more likely than others. And clearly there is a point in mounting beginner riders on very calm horses, in very controlled situations.
 
VoR said:
Errrm, not sure I actually say anywhere that it was safe to put the guy on this horse with an hours training, however, does it matter whether he was on a race-horse or a 'plod'? They are basically wild and any one of them could throw a wobbler, I would suspect that, at the time, the military (who appear to have been involved in the training) felt that it was ok,
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Of course it matters!! VERY few ex-racehorses are suitable for beginners OR for disabled riders. To put a beginner who was also disabled on one - at a BIG event held at a racecourse was just plain lunatic!!

Many years ago I taught an adult disabled riders' group at the Police Mounted Branch in Melbourne. One of the horses we used was an ex-racehorse - a very big money winner who the police accepted for PR reasons rather than because he was going to be a good police horse. And after 10 years in the mounted police branch he was STILL not a very good police horse - he never did big football matches, or race meetings, or big demos. He was used to teach new recruits, for park and street patrols - work that wouldn't give him an excuse! When we did 'away days' with the disabled riders, we never took him. He was fine in his home indoor school, with an experienced leader, and with the less disabled riders on - but we did have to be selective!

This was an accident waiting to happen even before the rider got on. And he had already reared once! It horrifies me that the HSE seemed to think it was 'unavoidable'! Do you think they'd say the same if riding schools chucked total beginners onto horses who had arrived at the school the day before and took them hacking down an A road????
 
I can't believe they put him on an x racer at a race course ! so sad to survive what he did then to lose his life on something that could have been avoided
 
I am actually at a bit of a loss as to why I am being met with such vitriol and have reviewed my posts on this thread;

#24 - my post - just a statement based on what I know about military and accepts a tragedy had occured.
#28 - my post - simply a reply to those who were saying 'I hope lessons have been learned' - the reports state that they have, read them, I was quoting from them not giving an opinion!
#36 - kerilli - please point out where I have stated that putting Mark on that horse was a sound decision? Booboos - same, JanetGeorge - same, plus;

Was anyone on here involved in the decision to put this chap on this particular horse? Was anyone here in attendance at his training and the discussions around what was going to happen, whether he was advised to not do it and insisted on doing so perhaps? Does anyone on here have any knowledge of this particular horse and its temperament? Does it follow that just because it is a race-horse it will behave poorly? If this is the case then some people have lied to me about their rides being ex-racehorses as some I've seen behave better than either of mine!

If we take some of the insinuations from posts to their logical conclusion, horses can be dangerous regardless of their background, so, if you haven't ridden or been taught to ride for many hours you shouldn't be allowed on one even if it is being led, but then again how would you get on one in order to have those lessons??? :confused:

It's amazing that accidents ever happen really because we are all so clever we can see every danger in everything we do and always make the correct and most rational decisions to avoid any potential accident and our vast experience and knowledge of everything means we never make mistakes! No what we see here is people who had no involvement being wise after the event without being involved in any of the decisions made or actually knowing the facts, just basing a 'verdict' on a story in a paper, a media which throughout history has of course always been more than reliable :rolleyes:

I have not at any point said that the decision to put Mark on that horse at that event was the right thing to do but I don't know how or why he ended up on it, when the decision was made the person making it may have taken all the views you raise in to account and given them all consideration, we don't know because we weren't there, quite clearly something was wrong otherwise the outcome would not of been so, however, I have committed the ultimate crime and been so brazen as to not fall in to line with everyone else, tut, tut and say how crazy they all were to do such a thing and 'they should have known...', but, instead, to suggest that maybe, just maybe, there are lots of people who may make a mistake and then have to live their life in regret that they didn't do something differently, there but for the grace of god go all of us, there are none of us who are immune to human failings!
 
Were you involved in the decision-making? Do you KNOW that he was adamant that he wanted to do it? Perhaps he needed reassurance that it would be fine, and that was given by someone experienced, who he trusted. I have no idea. I wasn't involved. My cousin is an above-knee amputee who used to ride. He's brave as a lion, but his balance is now so compromised that I doubt very much that I could persuade him to get on a guaranteed patent-safety saint of a horse at home, let alone in a hullaballo atmosphere...
Your statements

VoR said:
however, does it matter whether he was on a race-horse or a 'plod'? They are basically wild and any one of them could throw a wobbler, I would suspect that, at the time, the military (who appear to have been involved in the training) felt that it was ok,

I still refer to my previous posts, if anyone had told Mark he couldn't do this I can imagine his reaction!
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Are rather inflammatory because you imply that ANY horse is as likely to do such a thing as any other horse. So, just-backed warmblood is just as 'safe' for a beginner amputee as an ex-racehorse, and as a RDA 'plod'.
Erm, no. Not in the real world that we inhabit! Sorry.
 
1/. No I wasn't involved nor were you that's my point judgements are being made without facts.
2/. No read what it says, any horse is capable of can you argue that? AND noone seems to have any knowledge of the horse involved.

You really do have a knack of jumping to conclusions it seems and the one you have jumped to here and the way you seem to be judging me is wrong!

I suggest you read all posts and take them in context and not take snippets and turn them to what you seem to want them to say or do YOU work for the media?
 
No, i don't work for the media. Is that supposed to be an insult?
We do have facts. Apparently the poor guy had had 1 riding lesson in his life. That is very pertinent. Also, we do have knowledge of the horse involved actually. He is an ex-racehorse. That tells us a fair bit about the horse. If the report said he was an RDA horse, or a riding school horse, or any other 'tested and pretty much proven to be a reliable plod of a horse' type, I doubt any of us would have said a word!
 
kerilli said:
No, i don't work for the media. Is that supposed to be an insult? Only to anyone who works for the media!
We do have facts. Apparently the poor guy had had 1 riding lesson in his life. That is very pertinent Quote me anywhere I have said it isn't. Also, we do have knowledge of the horse involved actually. He is an ex-racehorse. That tells us a fair bit about the horse.Really so that tells us everything does it? Why is it an ex.racehorse? Perhaps it had the wrong temperament and was better suited to something else, maybe a riding school? Neither you nor I know If the report said he was an RDA horse, or a riding school horse, or any other 'tested and pretty much proven to be a reliable plod of a horse' type, I doubt any of us would have said a word!And those horses could be guaranteed to behave impeccably in an unfamiliar environment can they?
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Really, this is pointless as you seem to know everything there is to know about everything...take that as an insult if you like! Bye.
 
Oh dear, someone who can't understand plain English. Since when does "a fair bit" (as I said) = "everything". ffs.
And one thing I do know is that ex-racehorses aren't often sacked for being too quiet and rideable, but for being too slow or too excitable! Of course, this one was obviously perfectly suited to having a disabled beginner plonked on top. ffs.
 
VoR said:
I am actually at a bit of a loss as to why I am being met with such vitriol and have reviewed my posts on this thread;

#24 - my post - just a statement based on what I know about military and accepts a tragedy had occured.
#28 - my post - simply a reply to those who were saying 'I hope lessons have been learned' - the reports state that they have, read them, I was quoting from them not giving an opinion!
#36 - kerilli - please point out where I have stated that putting Mark on that horse was a sound decision? Booboos - same, JanetGeorge - same, plus;

Was anyone on here involved in the decision to put this chap on this particular horse? Was anyone here in attendance at his training and the discussions around what was going to happen, whether he was advised to not do it and insisted on doing so perhaps? Does anyone on here have any knowledge of this particular horse and its temperament? Does it follow that just because it is a race-horse it will behave poorly? If this is the case then some people have lied to me about their rides being ex-racehorses as some I've seen behave better than either of mine!

If we take some of the insinuations from posts to their logical conclusion, horses can be dangerous regardless of their background, so, if you haven't ridden or been taught to ride for many hours you shouldn't be allowed on one even if it is being led, but then again how would you get on one in order to have those lessons??? :confused:

It's amazing that accidents ever happen really because we are all so clever we can see every danger in everything we do and always make the correct and most rational decisions to avoid any potential accident and our vast experience and knowledge of everything means we never make mistakes! No what we see here is people who had no involvement being wise after the event without being involved in any of the decisions made or actually knowing the facts, just basing a 'verdict' on a story in a paper, a media which throughout history has of course always been more than reliable :rolleyes:

I have not at any point said that the decision to put Mark on that horse at that event was the right thing to do but I don't know how or why he ended up on it, when the decision was made the person making it may have taken all the views you raise in to account and given them all consideration, we don't know because we weren't there, quite clearly something was wrong otherwise the outcome would not of been so, however, I have committed the ultimate crime and been so brazen as to not fall in to line with everyone else, tut, tut and say how crazy they all were to do such a thing and 'they should have known...', but, instead, to suggest that maybe, just maybe, there are lots of people who may make a mistake and then have to live their life in regret that they didn't do something differently, there but for the grace of god go all of us, there are none of us who are immune to human failings!
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He shouldn't have been on ANY horse in that situation after an hours lesson. A lesson on a safe, well trained, well known horse in a quiet environment is very different. Whoever suggested it to him in the first place is stupid, as well as whoever allowed it.
I'm not saying every potential accident could be avoided but this has a long list - inexperienced rider, ex racer likely to hot up, buzzy environment.... TBH I would think twice about getting on in that situation and I have had more than 1hr training
It is a sad accident, but an accident that was waiting to happen and should have been prevented
 
kerilli said:
Oh dear, someone who can't understand plain English. Since when does "a fair bit" (as I said) = "everything"Not very 'plain' when the inference is that all ex racers would be unsuitable good attempt though. ffs.
And one thing I do know is that ex-racehorses aren't often sacked for being too quiet and rideable, but for being too slow or too excitable! Oh dear, oh dear, such a good attempted insult then you let yourself down with a 'aren't often' which means that some are, which means that this one could have been for all you or I knowOf course, this one was obviously perfectly suited to having a disabled beginner plonked on top. ffs.And another own goal, please point out in any post where I stated that it was such a horse
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???
 
you misunderstand - i wrote "a fair bit" which you, for your own reasons, took to mean "everything". why?
i know enough about horses never to state anything absolutely - there are of course always exceptions. i'm sure somewhere there's an ex-racehorse which is as docile as can be. one in a billion perhaps. i've never met one that was a reliable plod.
as for my last point - no, you didn't state that, i inferred it from your collected responses on this thread.
you are attempting to stick to your guns, that an ex-racehorse is no more or less likely to do something so dangerous than a plod. imho most experienced horsey people would disagree.
 
kerilli said:
I'm not being emotional at all. do you really honestly think that a 'plod' is just as likely to do something like that as an ex-racehorse?
of course ANY horse could do such a thing, but the fact is that certain types are far less likely to... ergo 'plod'...

somebody, presumably someone experienced, made a HUGE miscalculation here, and someone very inexperienced with horses paid the ultimate price. i call that tragic. and stupid.
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It is a very sad, tragic accident but i actually think yes, ANY horse could have doen this. It annoys me when people (ie TV companies etc) just assume you can put anyone on a horse and because it's 'sensible' it will be fine. We all know that horses are animals, no matter how well-behaved they are they are animals and unpredictable and you need to know what you're doing. I think it was a terrible mistake doing this without giving the person more training riding wise. Christ, i could say my horse would NEVER rear or do anything like that but have I ever put him in that situation? No. you can never say never.

Just a terrible terrible accident though and lessons should be learnt.
 
I agree but what I am trying to say is that too often it is assumed that a known 'quiet' horse is not going to ever do anything like that. I think it is too often forgotten that horses are animals, and large, powerful ones at that.

For what it's worth though I am not actually convinced a TB is more likely to rear than any other horse TBH - last horse i saw go up and over and ditch it's rider before b*ggering off was a large coloured cob. Just happens in this case it was a TB.
 
The obvious point those arguing with Kerilli seem to be missing is that this horse was taken back to an environment that anyone with minor knowledge of the breed would see might be a challenge for a TB. Of course anything could happen with any horse they are unpredictable, even the most angelic of plods could have had a heart attack and collapsed on the rider. But someone with the power to make the decision upped the odds against Mark by a) allowing him to take part after only an hours lesson and b) allowing it on a TB in a parade on a race track. Yes that person/s has to live with it for the rest of their life but so does Mark's family and his 'life' is gone.

RIP Mark
 
Interesting that I've just read that his hour's riding lesson came from an RDA group rather than a normal riding school. Which, if it's true, makes it worse in some ways if the RDA group said he'd be able to cope in that environment... (unless they didn't know)
 
kerilli said:
you misunderstand - i wrote "a fair bit" which you, for your own reasons, took to mean "everything".
you are attempting to stick to your guns, that an ex-racehorse is no more or less likely to do something so dangerous than a plod. imho most experienced horsey people would disagree.
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Firstly, unless you are some kind of mind-reader, you have no idea how I interpreted your post however, as a form of communication, e-mail, forums and the like are notoriously poor as what is meant is often not how a message is received, I think we may actually be in a loop of that exact phenomenon.

Secondly, I am not, nor have I stated at any time that an ex-racer is more or less likely to do something dangerous than any other, you have read that when it was not intended, simply that they all have the capability to do so, no horse can be 100% trusted, imvho I think probably ALL horsey people, regardless of experience would agree!

It is also interesting to see some recent comments, particularly that the RDA trained Mark and that possibly this was an RDA horse even, as you can see we don't really have enough facts to judge.....which is kind of the point I was making all along.

My best wishes go out to Mark's family and all those who have lost loved ones or had them come home seriously wounded especially at this time of year, I know how hard it must be because I've had close contact with someone affected this year. Get your Poppy wear it with pride!
 
kerilli said:
i wouldn't put ANY rider with 1 hour's experience up on any horse in public without someone experienced leading the horse, let alone on an ex-racer - and it is possible to make fairly reliable generalisations about types of horses imho. i've never known an ex-racer that was suitable for a total beginner in such a situation. QUOTE]

I agree. Totally ridiculous, in the same way you wouldn't give a 17 year old whose just passed their driving test a Ferrari to drive.

Totally unsuitable horse for a beginner and totally stupid to think the horse wouldn't take flight under the extreme circumstances it found itself in i.e at a large event.
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VoR said:
It is also interesting to see some recent comments, particularly that the RDA trained Mark and that possibly this was an RDA horse even, as you can see we don't really have enough facts to judge.....which is kind of the point I was making all along.
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I don't think it WAS a RDA horse - I dont know of many groups who would use an ex racehorse to be honest.
 
i found a report last night where the horse's owner said that a Kings Trooper was supposed to ride the horse, but there was a last-minute change of plan.
I, too, doubt that he was an RDA horse. I have a bit of experience with RDA, and if a big horse is used (and they have their problems, e.g. it is v hard for a walker to stabilise/help someone on a tall horse, plus a lot farther to fall if the worst comes to the worst) it is usually a real weight-carrier. e.g. we had a Percheron x Highland (elephant x elephant) which was about 14.3 iirc, who was perfect for the job.
 
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