Robert Smith's comments in Horse Deals

Caroline i do stick with my opinon with which i think Europe will always be ahead of us(i kind of feel i keep repeating myself)LOL im sure i dont stand alone when i say this, but maybe im the only one that will say it? thats not saying that Britain cant improve through learning and improving all the time,using better stallions and mares, as i do believe there are some studs that are trying i cant say that Britain is the best, in IMO i would be lying,we are trying and do you really honestly think there will be a time when Britain will be breeding along the same lines as Europe? i think not, not in the near future i would say.(it seems like im running British breeding down)im trying not too as i am British and it would be great for Britain to really come in front, but i can only speak how i feel! My breeding i enjoy i am a serious hobby breeder who wants to use the best stallions i can afford or the ones that i think will go best with my mares but i can not guarantee that they will be something special,i have belief in what i do and the stallions i choose,if i didnt have faith in what i do i wouldnt be doing it,its that simple and i hope at the end of the day it pays off in the longrun with a bit of luck,and being at the right place at the right time, i am very determined to do well if it kills me BUT i still stick with my original thoughts of Europe is better that isnt saying i cant produce a good horse here in the UK i didnt say that i couldnt do that im just saying Europe is ahead,and this is what the original post is about
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As well as the meat-man they sell of lot of 'their crap' to unsuspecting UK buyers.

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How can you say such a thing ??!!!
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What I want to know is why we have to resort to these arguements all the time?? Personally I think we should be breeding to whichever stallion best suits our mares....whether he is based in the UK, Ireland, mainland Europe, USA or Timbukto. At the end of the day not everyone is going to agree with one anothers opinions and what is needed is the people in general start to agreee to disagree and see that everyone does it differently. Just because it is what they do in Europe or wherever, doesn't mean that is how we want to do it, etc etc.
 
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I believe Europe are ahead of us and always will be

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If this is your belief then can I ask why you would bother to breed then (I am not saying this in a detrimental way BTW), because basically what you are saying is that even the stock that you end up breeding will be substandard regardless of whether you are breeding today or in 20 years time, and it wont make any difference about what you learn along the way, as you will feel that you will always be behind the rest??

Also will you tell any prospective buyers that they are better off going abroad when you try and sell your own youngstock? I dont think so.....it is likely you will tell buyers how wonderful these young horses are along with the prospects they will have....you may even use "world class" in your adverts in some way...who knows.

You only have to look at the results being made by some of our studs to see the progress made. Nobody can take away the results made by the likes of Brendon Stud and their stallions in showjumping. The Billy Stud have many young horses coming out. Catherston have been a producing top quality horses for years. Balcormo Stud in Scotland have produced International showjumpers. The great mare "Opportunity B" bred in Scotland by Birkland Stud, has won just about everything she has ever entered. I am not saying we are breeding hundreds of world beaters, but we cannot forget the results that have been made over the last few years.


I guess the difference with myself is that I have a great belief in my own breeding programme, with the mares I am using and with the stallion choices I make. The fact that my beliefs are backed up by breeders in Germany and Holland looking at future stock, makes me think that I must be on the right lines.

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very well said [or written to be correct]
British bred I think are: Hamilton Tropics, Animation, Carnaval Path, Buddy Bunn, Billy Birr, Randi's Gold, Williams Spirit, Laura's Choice, Back in Business II, Sunkist, Tinkas Serenade, Anderida Anica, World's Fair
Opportunity B, Baloubet Nice and Easy, Angel III, Harrington, Billy Congo, Crown Rhodonite, Alcina
 
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Caroline i do stick with my opinon with which i think Europe will always be ahead of us

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LOL.....
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I have not said that you don't stick with your opinion, quite the opposite, if you re-read what I have actually said above. I have just said that with your own admission, that you feel you will never breed anything on a par with Europe.

As we have said before, we all have our own thoughts and feelings on breeding, and that is what makes us all individuals and sets us apart from each other.

Regardless of the different aspirations of breeders, I always wish everyone the best with their endeavors, because there is a place for us all in the world of breeding.
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so what is best, someone who breeds two foals a year who are outstanding in temperament and quality, or 200 and get two foals from that of the same quality? I aim to breed quality foals that I myself am happy to keep and hope they have happy lives and if they excel at something great, but I take responsibility for each and every single one of them.

I never, and neither do any of the breeders I know, want to get to the stage where we are breeding hundreds of foals a year, none of whom we know personally just so we can get one or two who are going to rise to the top. Who takes responsibility for the other 198?
 
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British bred I think are: Hamilton Tropics, Animation, Carnaval Path, Buddy Bunn, Billy Birr, Randi's Gold, Williams Spirit, Laura's Choice, Back in Business II, Sunkist, Tinkas Serenade, Anderida Anica, World's Fair, Opportunity B, Baloubet Nice and Easy, Angel III, Harrington, Billy Congo, Crown Rhodonite, Alcina

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You know something, if they are all British Bred then that is not bad considering the UK only breed a few hundred foals per year, if that!
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You know I don't think the problem with British breeding lies in the horses we breed. I think the problem lies with the production of those horses. Which of our top riders also breed horses as is common in Europe? There's the Billy stud which is doing very well because the cream of their crop is spotted early and correctly produced. There is also the Catherston stud which has bred several GP dressage stallions. Are there any others?

If I was going into breeding I'd spend half my outlay money on a couple of top class broodmares and spend the rest of the money paying a top class rider to produce their offspring for me. Get the first crop out there, winning age classes and making a name for themselves and then (hopefully) make a profit selling the siblings. I'd do this even more aggressively if I had a stallion.

Someone who I think has carried out this strategy and done so very successfully is the owner of Eckstein and Condios. He doesn't breed many foals but he puts money behind his youngsters to make sure they get the best education possible and the result is international wins and a booming stud.

I believe the UK probably breeds more top quality foals as a % of the total number bred than Europe. The problem lies in the follow up, the lack of talent scouts to find the talented young horse and put them in the hands of someone who can bring out the best in them and the lack of breeders who have got the money to put a top rider on the best horses they have bred. Until this infrastructure is in place the UK will always be perceived as being behind the Europeans in breeding when in fact they are only behind them in producing.
 
One intersting point.

A lot of Robert Smiths horses were produced in the UK before he got the Ride on them. Vangelis S I think was ridden as a novice by Helen Tredwell, Mr Springfield (Ireland),Talan and Master Cludius produced from Penny Cornish's Yard.

It is one thing to breed a nice horse, it is another for it to get to the right hands to be produced correctly. I think more of the continental horses end up in professional hands than do the British Bred.

How many British Stud's have showcase horses competing at the Top Level, I can only think of the Billy Stud.

I still beleive that a Grand Prix Jumper is a freak of Nature they are just better bred freaks than previously. Thats why the continentals are breading tens of thousands of them, its the way to produce more GP Horses.

Darco sired 3000 horses and produced 35 top horses 100 to 1 odds. CloverHill roughly the same.
 

If you look at the current BSJA horse rankings none of the top 5 stallions are British bred (Arko, Utah van Erpekom, Vangelis, Romanov and Je T'Aime Flamenco). I look forward to the day when we can say the reverse is true.

At least they have all been in the UK since they were young horses and they were brought through the UK competition ranks.
 

very well said [or written to be correct]
British bred I think are: Hamilton Tropics, Animation, Carnaval Path, Buddy Bunn, Billy Birr, Randi's Gold, Williams Spirit, Laura's Choice, Back in Business II, Sunkist, Tinkas Serenade, Anderida Anica, World's Fair
Opportunity B, Baloubet Nice and Easy, Angel III, Harrington, Billy Congo, Crown Rhodonite, Alcina

[/ QUOTE ]I think this a good start if these are (British born) even though out of European stallions? its good that Britain has selected there stallions with the mares and these horses hae been produced,i think Britain is learning(i dont agree with Robert Smith when he said we are not willing to learn and listen i think there are some serious breeders out there,whether it be dressage or jumping we are willing to improve and im sure will,it would be lovely for Britain to be on par with Europe.we can hope in years to come we start shinning through
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Until British Breeding becomes financially viable it will remain on the relatively small scale that it is now .As a breeder and producer of young horses I know first hand the risks and financial outlay involved , if it was a viavle business it would be easy to attract investors from outside the horse world to then rival the continentals
 
and on that note, I think we may as well just give up this thread. There is no pleasing some people, that British breeders have taken the time to improve their breeding - to breed homebred colts and fillies in Britain - but omg they have used European based stallions to do it!

How many generations down the line do you think it acceptable to call a stallion British bred??
 
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and on that note, I think we may as well just give up this thread. There is no pleasing some people, that British breeders have taken the time to improve their breeding - to breed hombred colts in Britain - but omg they have used European based stallions to do it!

How many generations down the line do you think it acceptable to call a stallion British bred??

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Wholeheartedly agree , when is a british bred horse using a mare from Ireland and a stallion fron Holland for eg truly a british bred horse
 
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and on that note, I think we may as well just give up this thread. There is no pleasing some people, that British breeders have taken the time to improve their breeding - to breed homebred colts and fillies in Britain - but omg they have used European based stallions to do it!

How many generations down the line do you think it acceptable to call a stallion British bred??

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Until produce are out of or by an animal that was actually born in this country, not bought in while in the womb (mind blank, can't think of the word!) but in the purest sense, it would be an animal that has not any foreign breeding in it whatever.
So it could be pure English TB or an amalgamation of that and our native breeds or heavy horses.
Anything with foreign blood in the veins from somewhere, is not British bred which leads us to the Turks at the back of the TBs but you have to draw the line somewhere!
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SSS I too would have to ask you the question, why do you breed if you KNOW in your heart, that your stock will always be inferior to the horses coming from the continent. It sounds like financial suicide, how do you market your stock if you have no faith in it to begin with.

I as a breeder, (with a limited number of mares) I truly believe that I am matching the best mare to the right stallion in the hope that I have got it right. The crunch comes, as has been very well pointed out by some posters, when those horses are produced for the sport they have been bred for. I am lucky in that as I have a daughter who is IMO one of the best producers of youngsters I could find.

Lets be honest, the big boys and girls of the sport, get offered horses everyday to ride, because owners know that their horses will get exposure, they can pick and chose. They have both the choice of horses bred here or bred on the continent, they just pick the ones they want. The odds of them choosing a continental bred horse are higher due to the fact that percentage wise they have a wider choice, plus nearly all of the breeders on the continent have stable riders who produce the horses initially.

The big boys and girls, don't want the hassle of backing a youngster its too dangerous for them as a fall could mean the end of the season in competitions. Also they don't have the time to spend at home putting hours of ground work into a baby, taking it to a couple of unaffiliated competitions to build up confidence. They want horses that are produced correctly and ready for them to take out and perform on. That is where we go wrong, we do not have enough GOOD riders producing the youngsters that are bred in this county. Once a horse has gone down the conveyor belt of the continental studs, they are left with a handful of possibles, these are the ones that are marketable, these are the ones that the big boys and girl get to see. The big breeders have no worries about how they get the best out of a horse, they know all the tricks and are not afraid to use them. If a horse pulls through the system unscathed, it is then shown to the professionals as a potential WORLD CHAMPION.

It is not the breeders who have it wrong in this country, it is how their babies are produced that makes all the difference.

I have a young mare, bred in the UK, who is very closely related by blood to Sandro Boy, she is now a 4 year old and will be campaigned this season, SLOWLY, I know that she will be a champion she will be given every chance to shine, as she will be produced correctly. She is going out today to do her first round of showjumping, so watch his space.

This is where the emphasis needs to be put, not on the breeding, on the PRODUCTION.
 
Intresting thread that I hope many others will read as it covers multiple points. I haven't seen his comments but he is in a position to make good points.

With regards to showjumping, I believe that as mentioned and what I have said for many years, we can breed the horses but the problem lies with the ability to produce them and make it viable to do so for owners and riders. The main problem are the structure of shows and financial rewards in the UK to do this and until this is addressed (i think we are past the point of no return unless a major investment is made),we will only get a few 'British Bred' (and I agree that there will be a missing generation of these horses that are labelled as other breeds), that will make it to the top and will be ridden by a relatively few riders. There are some very good horses that are 'stuck' in production at top riders stables, pure and simply because they have to compete abroad so often and there are limitations to how many they can compete and concentrate on these. I believe that this can screw horses minds which is a big part of making a succesful horse at important times of their lives as 5,6,7 yo when a horses is left in a stable for weeks without competiting. I do not blame the riders as they have got to make a living to keep a yard running at home, but the sport.

I have had horses at both Michael's and Bens as well as other riders, producers etc so have seen the problems they and other owners have and it actually works out cheaper and less hassle in the long term to purchase a young horse abroad that has already been 'produced' over decent tracks so you can see what they can do rather than breed and try and try and produce a horse in the UK (unless you can compete them yourself up to GP level so you can get abroad, then that's another issue) to get it to a good level that it pay's for it self.

I always thought it ridiculous for GP horses to be thrashed around 1.30m open 'GP' classes to win money but being in the same position, this is the only way to sometimes get a horse to a show and to try and win £100. It is pathetic and as owners not something you want to see and does nothing in producing horses.
 
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Anything with foreign blood in the veins from somewhere, is not British bred

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Well MFH I would like to disagree with you on the above
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......because if you look back through the generations of the current warmbloods, many decend from TB's born in the UK!! However, the europeans dont have any problem with saying their horses are "european bred" despite the TB influence from the UK generations ago.

In fact many of the Studbooks are still looking for the TB influence to bring into their mare populations, and if they are graded into their Studbooks then they are classed as "European" stallions. For example the KWPN Approved another TB stallion last year, and it will be advertised as KWPN. However, if you buy a foal out of it, will you then say its European bred just because it has the KWPN tag attached....
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Lauries Crusader (going through Tudor Minstrel, the Owen Tudor line) is one such TB stallion, who made a huge impact on Hanoverian breeding.

A quote regarding Lauries:
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The five year old British born Thoroughbred Lauries Crusador came to the State Stud Celle in 1991, via the Dutch stallion owners, Henk Nijhoff and Jan Greve, and the former Director of the Holstein Verband, Maas Hell – who later became one of Germany’s biggest private stallion owners.

Nijhof and Greve - both Thoroughbred fans in the 1980's when the full-blood was not popular amongst Warmblood breeders - went to Newmarket in search of a stallion for the KWPN breeding program. They didn't find the stallion they were looking for, but were told about a stallion, in a barn, on the way to the airport.

Gauger quotes Nijhof: "When we arrived it was totally quiet, no human or horse visible. We snooped around a little and found in a remote part of the stable a row of box stalls, where a horse was looking out." Nijhoff was immediately taken, "If that's him, the we've found the right one!" he said to Greve. "This head, this eyes - I was immediately filled with enthusiasm. We finally located a groom, who pulled the colt out of the box stall. Jan and I were convinced: the stallion had a lot of neck, a beautifully developed body wiht an impressive croup. When he cantered forward upward with great ease in spite of his minor injury, we knew that we had found what we had set out for."

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Cor de la Breyere goes back (through the sire side) to the blood of the famous British TB sire "Bay Ronald".

The famous TB "Furioso" - Born in England in 1939, he was to become one of the most influential sires in modern performance horse breeding. Sire of Furioso II who had made a HUGE impact on European breeding, and also another son, Lutteur B who went on to win the 1964 Olympic individual gold for showjumping.

Lastly the sire of the legendary stallion "Landgraf I" is "Ladykiller" - Ladykiller was a very popular Thoroughbred stallion, born in England.

So next time you think about european breeding perhaps you should remember some of the above, because as RS has suggested, if you actually research your breeding and bloodlines like the european breeders then you actually find that many of the horses generate from British breeding....
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I'm the first to admit I know nothing about foreign breeding as you know and I'm pleased they are using our stallions to improve but I was just explaining in my cack handed way, what I thought British Bred should mean; it doesn't mean that is the official rendition, just my take on things which has clouded the issue, I'm sorry!
 
Whoopee - at last a reference to the importance of British stallions who have so strongly influenced ALL European breeding !! I don't often post on here but have felt my blood starting to boil at the two main culprits who NEVER STOP slagging off British breeders. One doesn't even bear mentioning, while the other seems to be totally unaware of the damage being done to their own credibility as a BRITISH BREEDER !! Reminds me of that jeweller guy who, years ago, rubbished his own jewellery then watched his business go down the pan - I thinkl it was 'Ratners'. I applaud all those who, within the constraints of their own individual budgets, are doing their damnedest to improve their stock. I once bred a colt who was then bought by the stud whose stallion I had used. They then sold him to one of our top dressage riders. That rider would not have come to me to buy him because I was an 'unknown' - but that did not stop me from breeding the right quality !!!!! So keep going folks and ignore the 'misery-guts' - let them sit under their big black thunderclouds and be miserable.
 
LOL....MFH....
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.....your input is as valuable as anyone elses...
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And Cruiseline......SPOT ON!!

You know as a breeder I like to put all my time and money into producing the article for the riders. I would love to have a big purse to have several of my own homebreds produced.....but that would then leave me in the dilemna of then cutting back the finances to the breeding side...

For me to keep a horse in the UK at a competition yard is anything from £150-£300+, you then take two or more horses at that price, then a breeder would then have to find £1500+ per month to get their horses into sport. That money spent could go towards breedings to some of the best showjumping or dressage stallions available.

So if a breeder had to produce all their own stock for "hopeful" International candidates, they would then have to cut back on the finances to the breeding side, to achieve this, because for a horse to make any money back in competitions they have to be out competing at the big shows, at a higher level.

Its a shame that there was not a central place in the UK whereby the breeders and the riders could come together with some kind of funding to help both sides. Whereby the breeders could concentrate on breeding the top horses (if that is what they wish to do) for the riders to then have the stock in the UK for future top International horses. Just a thought.....and highly unlikely to happen.
 
There are so many good ideas emerging on this thread ... I wonder if anyone from BEF (let alone the BSJA and BE) is noting them?

I know nothing about the system of support/subsidies on the continent for the horse industry - does this exist in Germany and the Netherlands, for instance? Why is is that we have so little funding in the UK as compared to the Continent? I'm sure that one of our knowledgeable posters will know .... because of course so much of this does seem to boil down to funding and money (and anastasia's point is spot on, above)
 
SSS
I think you will find that some of the german greats use Dutch and french blood; Belgian's use a lot of German, Dutch and French blood etc etc etc etc etc and of course as mentioned LOADS go back to the good old ENGLISH TB, So really we are just reclaiming our heritage and all those bleeding foreigners are in reality riding British Bred!
Incidently one of my Grade A 's is out of a mare I also bred.
 
I agree Anastasia, we need a nucleus of professional riders that can produce youngsters, so that they can then be campaigned to the top riders. We also need funding, which is what the Europeans get every year from their government. Without this we will always struggle to change the image of BRITISH BRED youngstock, it is not what is written on a piece of paper in a passport, but what we put on their backs.

I know just how much it cost to have a baby professionally produced outside my own yard. My dressage horses are in a professional yard (as Claire only produces the jumpers and in her own words ' is not confident enough to take on the dressage babies herself') and although it is well worth the cost, it does not come cheap as I have chosen the best. But I know I am giving them every chance to shine as competition horses, they are being produced in the best possible environment, with the best possible rider I can find.
 
I know that Matt went on a BSJA training day run by Di Lampard and Malcolm Phyrah which was aimed at good riders that can produce horses which is a big initiative however this must be backed up with more classes for 'professional horses' rather than weekend riders.

We have always started our horses with good professionals such as Anne Bedford and Alan Clutterbuck. They are brilliant producers of young horses and are honest enough to say if a horse has potential or not which can save time (and money). These types of riders are the ones that should be supported as they have the experience to recomend horses for future development to younger riders such as claire, matt etc to take onto the next level.
 
I just wanted to add:-

Claire is very honest with herself, she knows her limitations and in her words, she is not confident enough to produce the dressage babies, so they get passed over to some one who is.

The general riding public in UK have to be honest with themselves regarding their riding talent. I have witnessed this first hand be it at shows, or just someone who has come to try one of our youngsters.

SSS gave a great example with her post on the QUALITY MARE.

If you honestly think you have a top quality horse, do you honestly think you are the rider to produce it.
 
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