cruiseline
Well-Known Member
Again THE VOICE, we speak the same language at the same time
Robert Smith's comments in Horse Deals
- Thread starter BBH
- Start date
The Voice
Well-Known Member
scary on your part
We both know what it is like. Breeding the horses is the easy part with a bit of common sense but producing them past foxhunter is expensive, annoying, frustrating winge, winge, winge
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
scary on your part
We both know what it is like. Breeding the horses is the easy part with a bit of common sense but producing them past foxhunter is expensive, annoying, frustrating winge, winge, winge
[/ QUOTE ]
Well breeding is not always the easy bit, not when you have losses, and the variety of things that can go wrong, and even keeping them in once piece. My AI costs in 2008 were high 4 figures (the vets scored well!!), as was my semen bill. I was also paying for a stallion in competition, which also cost me high 5 figures!! On top of that, if I was to then try and put several of my youngsters (of which I have a few) all to top riders in the UK then I would not last the year, as I would be bankrupt!
I have a superb Heartbreaker filly that I would love to put under saddle, along with two three year olds, but if I want to continue to breed along the lines I am doing I would then have to sacrifice selling mares and cutting back on numbers to put them into sport....
So for breeders to breed and produce their horses in sport is a luxury that not many people can afford to do I am afraid. The returns on a competition horse can be a long wait, even one with all the talent in the world, because you still have to have the rider to ride it! Wrong rider and the horse with so much potential can soon be spoiled.
scary on your part
[/ QUOTE ]
Well breeding is not always the easy bit, not when you have losses, and the variety of things that can go wrong, and even keeping them in once piece. My AI costs in 2008 were high 4 figures (the vets scored well!!), as was my semen bill. I was also paying for a stallion in competition, which also cost me high 5 figures!! On top of that, if I was to then try and put several of my youngsters (of which I have a few) all to top riders in the UK then I would not last the year, as I would be bankrupt!
I have a superb Heartbreaker filly that I would love to put under saddle, along with two three year olds, but if I want to continue to breed along the lines I am doing I would then have to sacrifice selling mares and cutting back on numbers to put them into sport....
So for breeders to breed and produce their horses in sport is a luxury that not many people can afford to do I am afraid. The returns on a competition horse can be a long wait, even one with all the talent in the world, because you still have to have the rider to ride it! Wrong rider and the horse with so much potential can soon be spoiled.
The Voice
Well-Known Member
tell me about it . What we pay in bills we could be paying mortgages on two houses (that people could rent) and why we are no longer going to breed horses. As people say it is a mugs game. We are lucky that we have an understanding rider that is talented, but like us, he is not a charity and in the current situation, finances dictate, so they are limited to what they can do which with young horses is not good.
the trouble is as well, if you breed professional horses then you limit your market and what do you do with them as you cannot give them to a lessor rider to work. in some respects I do agree with what Henry Horn has said in the past of breeding good quality horses that are suitable for everyone.
I have got this 4yo (has interesting breeding
) http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.ph...l_font=1&l=
It looks like she will not be started until late like the others and hope they catch up. She has all the atributes of being very good, possibly the best we have breed and we have had some good bench marks, but again finance will dictate..
the trouble is as well, if you breed professional horses then you limit your market and what do you do with them as you cannot give them to a lessor rider to work. in some respects I do agree with what Henry Horn has said in the past of breeding good quality horses that are suitable for everyone.
I have got this 4yo (has interesting breeding
It looks like she will not be started until late like the others and hope they catch up. She has all the atributes of being very good, possibly the best we have breed and we have had some good bench marks, but again finance will dictate..
BSM456
Well-Known Member
I remember seeing this partly discussed whilst lurking back in June last year. The Quainton young horse classes were televised, and the first thing that everyone said was how crap the riding was.
The riding will stay crap until a salient and well thought out young horse system is created in the UK. They have it in every main country in Europe, and they keep kicking our arses in the young horse classes at lanaken every year. And yes, I know that the UK did OK in the 5YO's, but any horse that isn't jumping 1.35m at the end of their fifth year isn't worth considering in my view. Not ne UK horse made the final of the 6 and 7 year olds.
Until there's a season long (march to August) series of classes, which has and A and a B category, starting at 1m and going to 1.15m at the finals in August for the four year olds, starting at 1.10 going to 1.30m in finals for five year olds, neither 4 or 5 year olds being against the clock, then for the 6YO's starting at 1.25m and finishing at 1.40/5m, against the clock at the mid point of the season, the UK riders will have no incentive to do the job. Add to that zero prize money,and you can see why young horse production in the UK is in the state it's in.
The riding will stay crap until a salient and well thought out young horse system is created in the UK. They have it in every main country in Europe, and they keep kicking our arses in the young horse classes at lanaken every year. And yes, I know that the UK did OK in the 5YO's, but any horse that isn't jumping 1.35m at the end of their fifth year isn't worth considering in my view. Not ne UK horse made the final of the 6 and 7 year olds.
Until there's a season long (march to August) series of classes, which has and A and a B category, starting at 1m and going to 1.15m at the finals in August for the four year olds, starting at 1.10 going to 1.30m in finals for five year olds, neither 4 or 5 year olds being against the clock, then for the 6YO's starting at 1.25m and finishing at 1.40/5m, against the clock at the mid point of the season, the UK riders will have no incentive to do the job. Add to that zero prize money,and you can see why young horse production in the UK is in the state it's in.
The Voice
Well-Known Member
If only all your replies were like this then you would not wind people up.
Spot on and I will give you
5*****
Spot on and I will give you
5*****
springfallstud
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
You know I don't think the problem with British breeding lies in the horses we breed. I think the problem lies with the production of those horses. Which of our top riders also breed horses as is common in Europe? There's the Billy stud which is doing very well because the cream of their crop is spotted early and correctly produced. There is also the Catherston stud which has bred several GP dressage stallions. Are there any others?
If I was going into breeding I'd spend half my outlay money on a couple of top class broodmares and spend the rest of the money paying a top class rider to produce their offspring for me. Get the first crop out there, winning age classes and making a name for themselves and then (hopefully) make a profit selling the siblings. I'd do this even more aggressively if I had a stallion.
Someone who I think has carried out this strategy and done so very successfully is the owner of Eckstein and Condios. He doesn't breed many foals but he puts money behind his youngsters to make sure they get the best education possible and the result is international wins and a booming stud.
I believe the UK probably breeds more top quality foals as a % of the total number bred than Europe. The problem lies in the follow up, the lack of talent scouts to find the talented young horse and put them in the hands of someone who can bring out the best in them and the lack of breeders who have got the money to put a top rider on the best horses they have bred. Until this infrastructure is in place the UK will always be perceived as being behind the Europeans in breeding when in fact they are only behind them in producing.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you read my post that is what i was trying to say, you worded it better than me but 100% agree.
I am lucky i have a talented rider, trained with the best in Germany for 9 years, my best babies are just too young and my previous foals wernt good enough, but the deal is i bred them and he will train them so watch this space in a few years time
You know I don't think the problem with British breeding lies in the horses we breed. I think the problem lies with the production of those horses. Which of our top riders also breed horses as is common in Europe? There's the Billy stud which is doing very well because the cream of their crop is spotted early and correctly produced. There is also the Catherston stud which has bred several GP dressage stallions. Are there any others?
If I was going into breeding I'd spend half my outlay money on a couple of top class broodmares and spend the rest of the money paying a top class rider to produce their offspring for me. Get the first crop out there, winning age classes and making a name for themselves and then (hopefully) make a profit selling the siblings. I'd do this even more aggressively if I had a stallion.
Someone who I think has carried out this strategy and done so very successfully is the owner of Eckstein and Condios. He doesn't breed many foals but he puts money behind his youngsters to make sure they get the best education possible and the result is international wins and a booming stud.
I believe the UK probably breeds more top quality foals as a % of the total number bred than Europe. The problem lies in the follow up, the lack of talent scouts to find the talented young horse and put them in the hands of someone who can bring out the best in them and the lack of breeders who have got the money to put a top rider on the best horses they have bred. Until this infrastructure is in place the UK will always be perceived as being behind the Europeans in breeding when in fact they are only behind them in producing.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you read my post that is what i was trying to say, you worded it better than me but 100% agree.
I am lucky i have a talented rider, trained with the best in Germany for 9 years, my best babies are just too young and my previous foals wernt good enough, but the deal is i bred them and he will train them so watch this space in a few years time
sarahhelen1977
Well-Known Member
I was thinking the exact same thing about the TB influence over ALL european breeding!!!
Show me ONE european warmblood that has NO british bred horses in its pedigree!!
Show me ONE european warmblood that has NO british bred horses in its pedigree!!
southsidestud
Well-Known Member
Can i just add to all posters on here im not sure whether you think im personally attacking members from here who breed this is not the case,i feel a few people are upset with what i said and ive even been compared to a previous member who made peoples blood boil? this is not my intention in what i set out to do,i replied to a thread that was made by a member about something that Robert Smith said in Horse Deals,agreeing with what he said. Come on dont shot me down because i dont hold the same opinion as other board users.surely i am entitled to this as is everyone? ive said continuously im not putting down British breeding i do think we are behind,i think there are breeders in the UK that are trying to contribute to British breeding and this is good i too am a breeder though not on a large scale i hope one day i can contribute something good towards british breeding ive never once said my own personal horses are not good enough, who knows what i will breed in the future i have only been doing it a couple of years(whether i will be able to finance the running costs of training are another thing without selling it) i basically answered the question of the original poster if i upset anyone this wasnt my intention i just have my views and have outlined them above
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
Everyone's entitled to their own views SSS and it will be nice now to get down to decent debates without vitriol jumping in and ruining everything as he has before.
Anyway, he's gone now, let's hope everyone learnt some lessons today and it helps future breeders too.
Anyway, he's gone now, let's hope everyone learnt some lessons today and it helps future breeders too.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
This conversation is interesting to me as it's the EXACT same one that happens in the US and Canada breeding organisations all the time. If that's any comfort.
We all have access to the same bloodlines now so why don't we produce, by the numbers anyway, the same calibre of horses?
Lack of culling. Horses in N America and the UK are primarily pets, at least socially speaking. It's not okay to remove Fluffy from the gene pool just because he's not up to scratch.
Before everyone jumps on me, I'm not saying only top competition horses deserve to be here. Quite the opposite - I'm a firm believer in horses for courses. But that's my point, horses need to be steered and prepared for their eventual jobs and that's not going to be the same for every horse. Especially if you have limited resources, allocation of effort is important.
Different infrastructure. Horse production in many European countries is agriculture, administrated and taxed accordingly. There are also state supported programs like the French system of combining ALL profits from equestrian sports in one pot, which effectively means sport horse production has access to Tote (gambling - pretty much the most profitable game going) money.
A superior production system. Not just of horses but of the people who produce and compete them. It's not to say riders are more talented or even better in all cases - there are lots of crap riders on the Continent
- just that the SYSTEM is more proven and reliable. It's a numbers game, all about getting the right horses into the right hands.
It's a little better here I think but in N America producing young horses is seen as the job you give kids coming up or that you fall into if you're not good enough to compete at the top end. It's simply not generally valued as an interest and a career path in and of itself, one which requires specialist knowledge and skills. So horses often end up being produced either by people who don't really know what they want in and end result or by people who lack the time and patience (the most competitive riders are not necessarily the most suitable to produce) to focus on young horses. I do think a lot of people feel you have endless chances with a young horse and it doesn't really matter what you do until it's competing. I prefer to think you never have a second chance to make a first impression. As I'm fond of quoting, success is the sum of good decisions and EVERY decision one makes for a young horse weighs in its future.
The answer . . .? There probably isn't an easy one. But I think it's important people keep talking about it, that people who ARE successful make other people aware of what's involved so they know going in and are prepared for the work and money involved. Sure, it might put a few people off but maybe that's not a bad thing?
Lack of culling. Horses in N America and the UK are primarily pets, at least socially speaking. It's not okay to remove Fluffy from the gene pool just because he's not up to scratch.
Before everyone jumps on me, I'm not saying only top competition horses deserve to be here. Quite the opposite - I'm a firm believer in horses for courses. But that's my point, horses need to be steered and prepared for their eventual jobs and that's not going to be the same for every horse. Especially if you have limited resources, allocation of effort is important.
Different infrastructure. Horse production in many European countries is agriculture, administrated and taxed accordingly. There are also state supported programs like the French system of combining ALL profits from equestrian sports in one pot, which effectively means sport horse production has access to Tote (gambling - pretty much the most profitable game going) money.
A superior production system. Not just of horses but of the people who produce and compete them. It's not to say riders are more talented or even better in all cases - there are lots of crap riders on the Continent
It's a little better here I think but in N America producing young horses is seen as the job you give kids coming up or that you fall into if you're not good enough to compete at the top end. It's simply not generally valued as an interest and a career path in and of itself, one which requires specialist knowledge and skills. So horses often end up being produced either by people who don't really know what they want in and end result or by people who lack the time and patience (the most competitive riders are not necessarily the most suitable to produce) to focus on young horses. I do think a lot of people feel you have endless chances with a young horse and it doesn't really matter what you do until it's competing. I prefer to think you never have a second chance to make a first impression. As I'm fond of quoting, success is the sum of good decisions and EVERY decision one makes for a young horse weighs in its future.
The answer . . .? There probably isn't an easy one. But I think it's important people keep talking about it, that people who ARE successful make other people aware of what's involved so they know going in and are prepared for the work and money involved. Sure, it might put a few people off but maybe that's not a bad thing?
upsydaisy
Member
it is very interesting how some of you, as british breeders, are discussing this topic. I have read the whole thread with a lot of interest, however i have to say that i am very concerned about how so many of you feel that the top riders do not support british breeding when it is in fact british breeders who often snub the whole institution of breeding. How many internationally successful stallion are based in this country? I can think of at least 10 on the top of my head. Arko, Russell, Marius Claudius, Vangelis-S, Je taime Flamingo, Peppermill etc. But how come that some of them are now based abroad to stand at stud? Russell in Ireland, Marius Claudius in Holland, Arko in Belgium. How many british breeders took advantage of using these stallions on their doorstep? I am sure that continental breeders WILL use the advantage of using these stallions now available in their own country. I personally believe that Robert Smith is very much supporting British breeding by making all three of his internationally winning stallions available at stud in this country. and maybe when breeders recognize what genetic and economic value some of the British based stallions have, just maybe the top riders would start to look on their doorstep....it would be very interesting to see how many foals or youngsters by Arko or Marius Claudius will be imported to this country in years to come, which unfortunately have again been bred abroad...
shirleyno2
Well-Known Member
Who stands Peppermill, and where?
dannydunne
Well-Known Member
i'm with SSS on this to be honest.
i find it dispiriting how people seem almost proud that most modern warmbloods carry the blood from our TBs. why? because we were so short sighted that we never put them to good use over here. the studbooks from the continent realised that demand had changed and type needed to be modified for the future so they set out to refine their breeds while we sat back and watched ours dwindle in numbers. without taking action maybe the holstein would now be critically endangered or even extinct as its previous role no longer existed. maybe if we had the same vision we could have used some of the great tb stallions (or other ones) that have shaped continental breeds for the benefit of ourselves, sport and most importantly the breeds themselves. maybe just maybe had we taken the same actions as continental studbooks and looked forward the likes of cleveland bays would be topping the WBFSH rankings and not the RBST list of critically endangered horses.
even if they did use english TBs they were being used on mares that had been bred for generations in that region for hundreds of years, slightly different i feel to many of todays british bred horses, lots that are bred from foreign mares.
i also agree with bsm's and other points about shows and producing. last month when i was at roelof brils training we went to zwolle. the show ran from the 8th to the 18th. the 1st 4 days were dressage then on monday 2 days were used up as training days. genius... not really!!! makes perfect sense, so why dont we do it over here? so on the 1st 2 days the producers get to take their horses in the ''big scary'' international arena and expose them to an environment that we rarely get to show our young horses over here. if you muck up or want to go again you just wait for a couple more to go then jump round again. the next 2 days, wednesday and thurday, the show turned national with amateur classes and decent prize money then the remaining days were for international competitions. how awesome is that?! why dont we do it?! last year at windsor you weren't allowed to jump the 6 and 7 year old classes unless you were an international rider, so instead you were jumping at 7 in the morning... are we crazy?!!!
lets not start on the 6 year old class at hoys!!!!! one of the most testing young horse classes has to be the cavan classic 6 and 7 year old. i did it last year and will testify that its BIG!!! however although its big it really didn't cause too many problems or casualties. in the 3rd round some fences were 1.60... thats for the 6 year olds aswell as they both jump together. apparently the last was 1.65 but not sure if thats true. the 5 year olds were also strong and gillespie thought he may had been a bit strong when i spoke to him after but again nothing was killed in trying to jump round just silly errors. compare that to the 5 year old final at addington.... lots of casualties!!! i was 1st to go at 8:00 and slightly drunk from the night before (got in at 5:30... shhhhhhhhh!) so i was oblivious and managed to get a clear round, not sure i would have jumped had i seen some others go! several were eliminated, some retired and chris smith had a bad fall. this was round a 1.30 and cavan was 1.40. so is it the horses? the riders? the course builders? all i know is that some people at addington were shocked by the height but in cavan it was expected.
i find it dispiriting how people seem almost proud that most modern warmbloods carry the blood from our TBs. why? because we were so short sighted that we never put them to good use over here. the studbooks from the continent realised that demand had changed and type needed to be modified for the future so they set out to refine their breeds while we sat back and watched ours dwindle in numbers. without taking action maybe the holstein would now be critically endangered or even extinct as its previous role no longer existed. maybe if we had the same vision we could have used some of the great tb stallions (or other ones) that have shaped continental breeds for the benefit of ourselves, sport and most importantly the breeds themselves. maybe just maybe had we taken the same actions as continental studbooks and looked forward the likes of cleveland bays would be topping the WBFSH rankings and not the RBST list of critically endangered horses.
even if they did use english TBs they were being used on mares that had been bred for generations in that region for hundreds of years, slightly different i feel to many of todays british bred horses, lots that are bred from foreign mares.
i also agree with bsm's and other points about shows and producing. last month when i was at roelof brils training we went to zwolle. the show ran from the 8th to the 18th. the 1st 4 days were dressage then on monday 2 days were used up as training days. genius... not really!!! makes perfect sense, so why dont we do it over here? so on the 1st 2 days the producers get to take their horses in the ''big scary'' international arena and expose them to an environment that we rarely get to show our young horses over here. if you muck up or want to go again you just wait for a couple more to go then jump round again. the next 2 days, wednesday and thurday, the show turned national with amateur classes and decent prize money then the remaining days were for international competitions. how awesome is that?! why dont we do it?! last year at windsor you weren't allowed to jump the 6 and 7 year old classes unless you were an international rider, so instead you were jumping at 7 in the morning... are we crazy?!!!
shirleyno2
Well-Known Member
quote: i'm with SSS on this to be honest.
i find it dispiriting how people seem almost proud that most modern warmbloods carry the blood from our TBs.
The point in debate is that no warmbloods are PURE, or very very few, of course British breeding needs some foreign blood, how are you supposed to Improve the bloodlines otherwise?
Whilst i agree that we sometimes build too small in this country, 6 yr olds should NOT be jumping 1.60-1.65m. Maybe ONE tall vertical in the last round. Addington built small the first day but was then decent. And I totally agree that the Windsor schedule was totally pants last year, and dire that we lost the 6 yrs from HOYS but it's back isn't it?
i find it dispiriting how people seem almost proud that most modern warmbloods carry the blood from our TBs.
The point in debate is that no warmbloods are PURE, or very very few, of course British breeding needs some foreign blood, how are you supposed to Improve the bloodlines otherwise?
Whilst i agree that we sometimes build too small in this country, 6 yr olds should NOT be jumping 1.60-1.65m. Maybe ONE tall vertical in the last round. Addington built small the first day but was then decent. And I totally agree that the Windsor schedule was totally pants last year, and dire that we lost the 6 yrs from HOYS but it's back isn't it?
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
when it is in fact british breeders who often snub the whole institution of breeding. How many internationally successful stallion are based in this country? I can think of at least 10 on the top of my head. Arko, Russell, Marius Claudius, Vangelis-S, Je taime Flamingo, Peppermill etc. But how come that some of them are now based abroad to stand at stud? Russell in Ireland, Marius Claudius in Holland, Arko in Belgium. How many british breeders took advantage of using these stallions on their doorstep?
[/ QUOTE ]
Am sorry but I personally dont like Russell or Marius Claudius, and Arko IMHO was too pricey for a stallion who's progeny have no record yet, I would have used his sire Argentinus first who was less money and proven in the fields of both jumping and dressage with his offspring. I also believe that Arko will need a certain type of mare that will match with him. As others have said nobody can even find out where Peppermill stands.
Dannydunne I think it is all well stating the big heights in Ireland, but I believe you said you were at the KWPN Stallion Show, as I was, and even the big class at the end of the showjumping night, which included 9 year old stallions was a maximum height of 1.40m in the jump off (with the jumps around 1.30/1.35m).
Zwolle also had a whole brand new layout to its show this year, as in the past it was only open to stallions and held just around a week I believe, whereby this year it was opened up to all horses across the board.
I whole heartedly agree with everyone about the need for more young horse classes. In Germany they have lots of "material classes" for young horses etc but in the UK there seems to be a considerable lack of the age classes in both dressage and showjumping (I am not sure about eventing so cannot comment).
when it is in fact british breeders who often snub the whole institution of breeding. How many internationally successful stallion are based in this country? I can think of at least 10 on the top of my head. Arko, Russell, Marius Claudius, Vangelis-S, Je taime Flamingo, Peppermill etc. But how come that some of them are now based abroad to stand at stud? Russell in Ireland, Marius Claudius in Holland, Arko in Belgium. How many british breeders took advantage of using these stallions on their doorstep?
[/ QUOTE ]
Am sorry but I personally dont like Russell or Marius Claudius, and Arko IMHO was too pricey for a stallion who's progeny have no record yet, I would have used his sire Argentinus first who was less money and proven in the fields of both jumping and dressage with his offspring. I also believe that Arko will need a certain type of mare that will match with him. As others have said nobody can even find out where Peppermill stands.
Dannydunne I think it is all well stating the big heights in Ireland, but I believe you said you were at the KWPN Stallion Show, as I was, and even the big class at the end of the showjumping night, which included 9 year old stallions was a maximum height of 1.40m in the jump off (with the jumps around 1.30/1.35m).
Zwolle also had a whole brand new layout to its show this year, as in the past it was only open to stallions and held just around a week I believe, whereby this year it was opened up to all horses across the board.
I whole heartedly agree with everyone about the need for more young horse classes. In Germany they have lots of "material classes" for young horses etc but in the UK there seems to be a considerable lack of the age classes in both dressage and showjumping (I am not sure about eventing so cannot comment).
hilly
Well-Known Member
Some very interesting points.
[ QUOTE ]
I remember a few years back that the Irish always had to ride Irish bred horses in their teams, they did phenomenally well with them and were as proud as punch of them as a result.
It is a great shame that we couldn't start bringing that rule in that at least some of the team, whichever discipline it is, had to ride British bred horses.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was the case until Eddie Macken brought his own High Court one, back in the late 1970's, against the EFI and won the right to ride his German-bred horse, Boy. As a professional, that was his perogative but perhaps it also marked a watershed between what was previously an 'amateur' sport and a professional business.
And it IS a business on the Continent and while I agree, it would be lovely to see each country on home-bred horses, there would be an uproar if their federations tried to impose it.
One of the biggest rounds of applause at an Irish function was when one speaker remarked that he regarded an Irish team as four Irish riders on four Irish traditonally-bred horses.
Robert, who tells it as it is
has also said that he believes Irish breeders should go back to what they did best - TB sires on Draught mares. He more than walks the talk so his opinion has to be respected and obviously, he has great affection for those types, like Mr Springfield, that were very successful for him and Harvey. The reality is it would be commercial suicide for Irish showjumping breeders to return down that route.
Mainly because we no longer have those brilliant TB sires and the lovely, old-type Draught mares. All either sold out of the country or 'bred-out'. And there are so many other factors why Irish breeders face an uphill battle to get back into the top SJ rankings. Today's courses don't suit Irish horses but they still excel in Derby-style competitions and as 'amateur' horses in the States.
And Irish breeders have the eventing market as another option.
Put it another way - do jockeys ask how the horse in their next race is bred? It matters very little so long as it gets them past the winning post first. Sure, some will like certain pedigrees and types but the majority care about winning and making a living from a precarious job.
It's the same with most professional showjumpers - it's results first, brand loyalty down the list. Showjumping has moved on so much from who could afford to pay their own expenses on overseas teams and keep a horse for it's lifetime. That's the reality. Another is the Europeans are ultra-professional about breeding which they regard as a business while in the British Isles we're still two islands filled mainly with hobby breeders.
I don't see why the two approaches can't have their own advantages. It's great to be professional in your approach to breeding but the advantage of being a smaller, 'organic' operation can be a selling point too.
Some people like to shop in the 'farmers market', others prefer supermarkets and some of the 'equestrian LIDL and ALDIs' on the Continent are really in that category.
Another Olympic rider, when asked why he goes to the Continent to shop, hit the nail on the head. Convenience. Because with these professionals, time is money and they can look at everything literally under one roof. I've seen some of these 'supermarkets' - "You want a young dressage horse? This aisle. A four or five-year-old jumping a 1.10m course? Over here. Something with Grand Prix potential? This way". All the horse's performance records/pedigrees are instantly at hand and you can see why for time-strapped professionals that the Continental approach is so professional and hassle-free.
The bottom line is it's a free market and buyers will shop wherever they want. The majority of horses will end up in the leisure market; the figure for Irish-bred horses is around 85% so the question for Irish breeders is do you aim for 10% or settle for the mass market.
The Irish statistics probably correlate with the British breeding experience but there will definitely be a drop in mares covered here (Ireland) this year with the downturn in the market.
Intrigued about the references to British and Irish TBs sourced for European studs. The reason they were sought-after was to upgrade native mares for cavalry units as horses were needed in massive numbers pre-WWI and to a lesser extent, WWII.
Short of Mystic Meg's crystal ball, who could have foreseen that the happier end result, several generations later, would end up in WBFSH rankings than on a battlefield?
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I remember a few years back that the Irish always had to ride Irish bred horses in their teams, they did phenomenally well with them and were as proud as punch of them as a result.
It is a great shame that we couldn't start bringing that rule in that at least some of the team, whichever discipline it is, had to ride British bred horses.
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That was the case until Eddie Macken brought his own High Court one, back in the late 1970's, against the EFI and won the right to ride his German-bred horse, Boy. As a professional, that was his perogative but perhaps it also marked a watershed between what was previously an 'amateur' sport and a professional business.
And it IS a business on the Continent and while I agree, it would be lovely to see each country on home-bred horses, there would be an uproar if their federations tried to impose it.
One of the biggest rounds of applause at an Irish function was when one speaker remarked that he regarded an Irish team as four Irish riders on four Irish traditonally-bred horses.
Robert, who tells it as it is
Mainly because we no longer have those brilliant TB sires and the lovely, old-type Draught mares. All either sold out of the country or 'bred-out'. And there are so many other factors why Irish breeders face an uphill battle to get back into the top SJ rankings. Today's courses don't suit Irish horses but they still excel in Derby-style competitions and as 'amateur' horses in the States.
And Irish breeders have the eventing market as another option.
Put it another way - do jockeys ask how the horse in their next race is bred? It matters very little so long as it gets them past the winning post first. Sure, some will like certain pedigrees and types but the majority care about winning and making a living from a precarious job.
It's the same with most professional showjumpers - it's results first, brand loyalty down the list. Showjumping has moved on so much from who could afford to pay their own expenses on overseas teams and keep a horse for it's lifetime. That's the reality. Another is the Europeans are ultra-professional about breeding which they regard as a business while in the British Isles we're still two islands filled mainly with hobby breeders.
I don't see why the two approaches can't have their own advantages. It's great to be professional in your approach to breeding but the advantage of being a smaller, 'organic' operation can be a selling point too.
Some people like to shop in the 'farmers market', others prefer supermarkets and some of the 'equestrian LIDL and ALDIs' on the Continent are really in that category.
Another Olympic rider, when asked why he goes to the Continent to shop, hit the nail on the head. Convenience. Because with these professionals, time is money and they can look at everything literally under one roof. I've seen some of these 'supermarkets' - "You want a young dressage horse? This aisle. A four or five-year-old jumping a 1.10m course? Over here. Something with Grand Prix potential? This way". All the horse's performance records/pedigrees are instantly at hand and you can see why for time-strapped professionals that the Continental approach is so professional and hassle-free.
The bottom line is it's a free market and buyers will shop wherever they want. The majority of horses will end up in the leisure market; the figure for Irish-bred horses is around 85% so the question for Irish breeders is do you aim for 10% or settle for the mass market.
The Irish statistics probably correlate with the British breeding experience but there will definitely be a drop in mares covered here (Ireland) this year with the downturn in the market.
Intrigued about the references to British and Irish TBs sourced for European studs. The reason they were sought-after was to upgrade native mares for cavalry units as horses were needed in massive numbers pre-WWI and to a lesser extent, WWII.
Short of Mystic Meg's crystal ball, who could have foreseen that the happier end result, several generations later, would end up in WBFSH rankings than on a battlefield?
dannydunne
Well-Known Member
i think so but isn't there a 7 and 8 year old class also?
magic104
Well-Known Member
There are so many reasons why the rest of Europe are ahead (look at their sports ponies bred from UK natives!!). I would hope though that record keeping wont be one of the things letting UK breeding down in the future. It did not help when people continued to breed then not bother to register the foals.
If other countries can offer scholorships why cant our government do the same. If you are good at a sport in this country there is very little if any backing, tough if your family have no money!
Also perhaps there should be more incentives to encourage mare owners only to breed from graded/proven mares. The SHBS offer discounts but limited to one of their stallions. Perhaps there needs to be bigger scheme, a case of getting the money back if the mare passes.
The biggest problem is costs, it is not cheap to get your youngster out there as already mentioned. Plenty of stallions have missed out on not being ridden by a decent rider able to maximise their full potential. Plenty of youngsters have been ruined along the way by poor riding skills. Everything needs to be looked at as it is the whole picture from start to finish.
If other countries can offer scholorships why cant our government do the same. If you are good at a sport in this country there is very little if any backing, tough if your family have no money!
Also perhaps there should be more incentives to encourage mare owners only to breed from graded/proven mares. The SHBS offer discounts but limited to one of their stallions. Perhaps there needs to be bigger scheme, a case of getting the money back if the mare passes.
The biggest problem is costs, it is not cheap to get your youngster out there as already mentioned. Plenty of stallions have missed out on not being ridden by a decent rider able to maximise their full potential. Plenty of youngsters have been ruined along the way by poor riding skills. Everything needs to be looked at as it is the whole picture from start to finish.
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
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i think so but isn't there a 7 and 8 year old class also?
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Dannydunne, not sure if you are referring to me, but will comment anyway...
KWPN had the following showjumping classes:
L Level (1.10m) - for 5 year olds - won by Zidane
M Level (1.20m) - for 6 year olds - won by Wallenberg (favourite of mine)
Z Level (1.30m) - for 7 year olds - won by Vaillant
1.35/1.40 VHO Trofee - for 8 & 9 year olds - won by 8 year old Cartano, with the 9 year old Casantos 2nd. Sir Corland won it last year as a 9 year old.
i think so but isn't there a 7 and 8 year old class also?
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Dannydunne, not sure if you are referring to me, but will comment anyway...
KWPN had the following showjumping classes:
L Level (1.10m) - for 5 year olds - won by Zidane
M Level (1.20m) - for 6 year olds - won by Wallenberg (favourite of mine)
Z Level (1.30m) - for 7 year olds - won by Vaillant
1.35/1.40 VHO Trofee - for 8 & 9 year olds - won by 8 year old Cartano, with the 9 year old Casantos 2nd. Sir Corland won it last year as a 9 year old.
dannydunne
Well-Known Member
i was replying ssjez about hoys, i heard the 6 year old will be back at hoys and the 7 year old will become a 7 and 8 year old class
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
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The biggest problem is costs, it is not cheap to get your youngster out there as already mentioned. Plenty of stallions have missed out on not being ridden by a decent rider able to maximise their full potential. Plenty of youngsters have been ruined along the way by poor riding skills. Everything needs to be looked at as it is the whole picture from start to finish.
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Magic very important point raised and completely agree with you. I fear myself when I count up what we have spent over the last couple of years!
The biggest problem is costs, it is not cheap to get your youngster out there as already mentioned. Plenty of stallions have missed out on not being ridden by a decent rider able to maximise their full potential. Plenty of youngsters have been ruined along the way by poor riding skills. Everything needs to be looked at as it is the whole picture from start to finish.
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Magic very important point raised and completely agree with you. I fear myself when I count up what we have spent over the last couple of years!
shirleyno2
Well-Known Member
Hey BSM456, oops you can't reply because you've been banned, but if your LURKING again....
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I remember seeing this partly discussed whilst lurking back in June last year. The Quainton young horse classes were televised, and the first thing that everyone said was how crap the riding was.
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YOU talk crap, YOU were crap at this show. You actually don't know your a@se from your elbow, you spent most of the show looking for me to ask me questions re the rules. Which incidently were changed as the show progressed, I believe you had talked yourself into a superior position that you know nothing about, hence you are not involved with Quainton now? I coulkd have given you a few bum steers that weekend, but for the good of the sport I didn't.
As you rightly say, this event was televised and i have watched it, they cannot of editted out all the CR@P riding!!
So I ask, who is everyone that said it was cr@p riding? Whoopsy, you can't answer can you.
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I remember seeing this partly discussed whilst lurking back in June last year. The Quainton young horse classes were televised, and the first thing that everyone said was how crap the riding was.
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YOU talk crap, YOU were crap at this show. You actually don't know your a@se from your elbow, you spent most of the show looking for me to ask me questions re the rules. Which incidently were changed as the show progressed, I believe you had talked yourself into a superior position that you know nothing about, hence you are not involved with Quainton now? I coulkd have given you a few bum steers that weekend, but for the good of the sport I didn't.
As you rightly say, this event was televised and i have watched it, they cannot of editted out all the CR@P riding!!
So I ask, who is everyone that said it was cr@p riding? Whoopsy, you can't answer can you.