Robert Whittaker why dont you pat your horses?!

Release of "pressure", work for example, is it's own reward. Just doesn't have to be food. That's just a people mindset. Mine learn a soft word, a gentle pat, and a release from pressure. Please do realise what I'm talking about with pressure. I'm not on about Rollkur.

T

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Release of "pressure", work for example, is it's own reward. Just doesn't have to be food. That's just a people mindset. Mine learn a soft word, a gentle pat, and a release from pressure. Please do realise what I'm talking about with pressure. I'm not on about Rollkur.
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Release of pressure is not a reward :) Release of pressure is a reinforcement - technicaliy a negative reinforcement. A reward is something that animals seek out. In contrast release of pressure is a relief... when you've worn uncomfortable shoes all day, it certainly feels great to take them off, but that doesn't mean you want to put them straight back on to feel that relief again ;)

I think it was NH people who started this thing of saying release was a reward, I think because they confused "reinforcement" (something that strengthens the behaviour that came before it) with "reward" (something animals seek out rather than avoid, which can also be used to reinforce behaviour).
 
For the record, as it were, what people do with their own horses is their business unless it is a welfare issue and not patting your horse doesn't even come close. However he just patted his horse after it tried to bank an oxer with him, awful awful man :rolleyes:
 
Well, his horse just totally misjudged a big oxer and the guy gave it a nice stroke on the neck, retired, jumped a nice easy fence and gave it another little pat on the way out. so clearly he does when he feels the horse needs it.
 
Brightbay said:
Release of pressure is not a reward :) Release of pressure is a reinforcement - technicaliy a negative reinforcement. A reward is something that animals seek out. In contrast release of pressure is a relief... when you've worn uncomfortable shoes all day, it certainly feels great to take them off, but that doesn't mean you want to put them straight back on to feel that relief again ;)

I think it was NH people who started this thing of saying release was a reward, I think because they confused "reinforcement" (something that strengthens the behaviour that came before it) with "reward" (something animals seek out rather than avoid, which can also be used to reinforce behaviour).
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No, I watched Carl Hester do a demo ride and he kept saying he was releasing as a reward. I've been riding since about Victorian times, and I've heard the term used many times over the years. But even in the strict dictionary definition it's not a good use of the word.
 
Batgirl said:
For the record, as it were, what people do with their own horses is their business
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but, they very often are not their horses are they. My own opinion, and it is only mine, is that as a potential owner of a competing horse (homebred so much loved), I not only want a competent and caring rider, I want one who shows my horse appreciation after a good round. I am sure I am not the only one. No one is saying this is a welfare issue, so please don't confuse the two...just wanting to see an acknowledgement of the horse as an equal partner in the round.
 
HBM1 said:
but, they very often are not their horses are they. My own opinion, and it is only mine, is that as a potential owner of a competing horse (homebred so much loved), I not only want a competent and caring rider, I want one who shows my horse appreciation after a good round. I am sure I am not the only one. No one is saying this is a welfare issue, so please don't confuse the two...just wanting to see an acknowledgement of the horse as an equal partner in the round.
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I don't think he deserves a lambasting because you didn't see him pat the horse. Your choice who you get to ride your horse and if you don't want someone to ride it because they don't pat it it is your issue. We get told not to have a go at dealers etc on here and I think it is unfair and rather ridiculous to pick Robert Whitaker out because on a short bit of TV he didn't pat his horse.

Also please don't patronise me by telling me not to confuse the two, you will notice if you read my post properly I said 'unless' it is a welfare issue. Indicating that I don't think it is a welfare issue jut that in my terribly humble opinion that is is no-ones business unless it IS a welfare issue. Do I seem confused to you?
 
you seem to be getting very angry over it though. I haven't lambasted him or even commented, as far as I can remember. All I am saying is that in MY opinion, it does matter to me. I never said anything about riders who don't. I also never said you were confused, just not to confuse the issues, I also didn't quote that part of your text as I didn't want it to seem as though I was solely saying it to you.

Still not quite sure why you replied so angrily to my post though when I was only stating my opinion. I pay a great deal of money and invest a whole lot more to breed my horses, so yes, when I get them to that stage I want someone who I see as giving them good praise and letting them know they did a good thing.
 
I hate being patronised (telling em not to confuse the two came across as patronising whether you meant it to or not) and I am not angry, I just disagree with you.

He did pat his horse tonight, just a different one, maybe the one he didn't pat on camera didn't like being patted and he knows that and cares not to pat it, maybe he patted it 10 seconds later when we couldn't see.

To me it is not a separate issue, it is again a lot of people assuming they can tell everyone how they should treat horses they ride (you will notice I didn't say owner this time ;)) . I said that if you don't want people to ride your horses if they don't pat them and I said that is your issue, perhaps I should have said your choice. I think this thread is rather unfair, picking him out.

I also apologise for saying 'you' I meant the thread starter.
 
Habit and I suppose more tone of voice if they have done well. Mine knew NO(when roared at) and definitely Whoah. Good boy..but I remember I think it was Harvey Smith saying you could tell your horse it is a F..in horrid horse in a nice friendly soft voice and it would think u were being nice from the tone.

I do think its habit and then I suppose I stroked him on his neck too?? Perhaps to remind him I was on board!
 
Oh dear, I'm not a NH'r with all the new fangled lingo. So giving treats would be negative reinforcement too.

Well from my perspective over many years and many, many horses ridden and started, they are all pretty happy with strokes and gentle pats that happen at any time.

Course I did see another way horses were taught to whoa thanks to a NH'r. One just grabbed the right rein and had it pulled to the riders knee. The people in question were so delighted with this "trick" the starter taught their horse. My voice and a gentle pat seems kinder but what do I know.

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Oh dear, I'm not a NH'r with all the new fangled lingo. So giving treats would be negative reinforcement too.

Well from my perspective over many years and many, many horses ridden and started, they are all pretty happy with strokes and gentle pats that happen at any time.

Terri
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I teach this subject, so I'm afraid that's why I leap in when I see explanations that are wrong :D

Feeding a treat would indeed reinforce the behaviour immediately before - but that's positive reinforcement - you have just added something (+ or positive) that the horse wants, so it will do the same thing (usually very enthusiastically) to get another treat. Hence treats are rewards! The Spanish Riding School - newfangled bunch of horse wranglers that they are, are well aware of this link :D

Negative reinforcement is removing something the animal doesn't want (minus sign or negative), so e.g. removing pressure. It does make the behaviour the horse just did more likely to happen again, but it also makes the horse more likely to want to avoid the situation where it happened (vis all the "I can't catch my horse" threads ;)

It's not new fangled NH lingo, I'm afraid - it's the clunky scientific terms coined in about 1905 by scientists like Edward Thorndike and BF Skinner.

My students love me when I get all over excited about why horse trainers, of all animal trainers, think horses are somehow exempt from these rules of behaviour... steam comes out my ears :D

We do love patting/clapping/slapping/scratching our horses, but I suspect the majority of them don't enjoy it, but do like the information that the hard work is now finished.
 
Another scratcher here - I hate the sound of OTT patting and I wonder what horses make of it. Makes me cringe if anyone does it to mine. I'll deliver a slap for rudeness and they understand that. No, I rub them by the withers or give gentle touch pats - and use my voice with both.

Just like Salome's rider Tim. Lovely to see.
 
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