Rock solid crest

SEL

SEL

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What causes crests to suddenly go solid? This horse (my PSSM mare) has been tested for IR / EMS numerous times and is negative but she's had 2 days on a field of grass without her muzzle - it rubbed - and is totally wired with an absolutely solid neck. The muzzle will have to go back on tomorrow, but everything I've read associates crests with EMS. Is it toxins that causes them to come up?

I've added extra magnesium but she's ignoring her tiny little dinner & soaked hay for trampling her stable to mush. I'm hoping as the cold temperatures kick in later tonight she'll settle and actually eat it
 
I’m not sure about the mechanics of crests, but I feel your pain with it.
Mag ox alone doesn’t shift my mares crest and eye fat pads, I have to add cinnamon to it and then they just magically disappear!
 
Toxins builds up within the liver and the lymphatic system needs to be smartly shoved into gear to get it draining properly. A sudden solid crest would worry me as an acute laminitis indicator and as the grass is frozen the sugar content will be sky high at the moment especially if you have had sun. If pony was mine I would be taking it off the grass completely, soaking hay which you are already doing and giving it a 10 day course of Remount from RonFields to detox the liver.

I now keep both my ex laminitic and EMS ponies on LiverAid from Science Supplements. DP has gone from looking like a barrage balloon to slim with ribs, a waist and no crest. Vet couldn’t believe the difference in him yesterday and wondered what I was doing.
 
Red-1 said:
I too would take this as a huge red flag and remove from grass for now. I would soak hay too.

I would also have another blood test as a hard crest is teetering for lami.
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We've tested before when her crest was like this and insulin and glucose were both on the low end - which actually ties in with an insulin sensitive PSSM horse. She'll be muzzled again and I've actually got Ron Fields Remount for one of the others so hopefully we'll head off whatever's going on.
 
With the weather as cold freezing etc increases the sugar content in the grass as the sugar acts as an antifreeze, which is why there is an increase risk to lamanitics.
 
SEL said:
We've tested before when her crest was like this and insulin and glucose were both on the low end - which actually ties in with an insulin sensitive PSSM horse. She'll be muzzled again and I've actually got Ron Fields Remount for one of the others so hopefully we'll head off whatever's going on.
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SEL said:
Negative for cushings too on multiple tests. Vet agreed there is something odd metabolically more than her PSSM but we're not sure what.
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Being as there is obviously something awry going on, to do with grass and metabolism, if the horse were mine I would still remove from grass altogether until the frost has gone, and for a couple of weeks afterwards too. This gives the grass sugars time to go down, and hopefully have the crest go back to normal. Then perhaps allow gradually increasing muzzled turnout as long as the weight is on a slim.

For this type of horse I would like ribs to be prominent, either visible or in a really thick coat, easily felt. I would reduce hay to 1.5% of bodyweight, feed soaked, with supplementary straw to fill the belly. I would also give a good quality supplement, a mug of soaked speedy beet, with straw chaff.

I know I ave mentioned it before, but I would also ring Trinity Consultants. I have no idea what is in the product, but I do know that all the Lami pages rate it, and it has had good results for me the twice I have used it.
 
Did you run a IR/EMS by a blood test or Glucose test.My very fit Welsh Sec D suddenly got a solid crest and a bit footy.Vet ran a blood test which came back negative.She was Convinced it was that so suggested a Glucose test....even though all booked in military precision for her to arrive to take blood an hour after having it...typically she got delayed and was over an hour late...his reading was over 200....some don’t show up on a blood test.Was removed from grass, put on soaked hay and got him right, controlled by diet for 2 years and muzzled in field,but then started to get recurrent abscesses in both front feet.Tested again and was high so put on Metformin which worked for 2 years but then abscesses started again and sadly had to let him go.Please don’t always rely on the blood test.
 
SEL said:
Negative for cushings too on multiple tests. Vet agreed there is something odd metabolically more than her PSSM but we're not sure what.
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You might already have this covered but if you haven't please ask for a TRH Stim test rather than ACTH.
Our Appy had several 'within normal range' results on ACTH (although each one was a little higher than the last) but we and the vet were suspicious of some of her symptoms, so did the TRH-Stim test and it came back *X8* normal range. The upper limit is 100, her reading was 800
 
With the freezing weather, this is a sure sign you are in danger or even are in a laminitic episode. I suspect your pony will also have pulses. Get pony off grass, on hay and don’t let them out until crest is soft again. I have spent the last three years managing a laminitic and honestly, once the crest is up you need to take action. Absolutely no turn out on frozen grass, not even at night. Usually takes a week of being in before the crest will soften. I also add a table spoon of salt to feed and give anti inflammatories at start, just in case. But def check for pulses. So hard managing these ponies - but crests, pottering or pulses are your warnings to take action.
 
Absolutely agree to remove off grass, this is a big warning sign, there may already be inflammation if there’s a bounding pulse. Hard ground can set them off, as can the frozen grass. Best to be safe than sorry as it’s an awful experience to go through.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
You might already have this covered but if you haven't please ask for a TRH Stim test rather than ACTH.
Our Appy had several 'within normal range' results on ACTH (although each one was a little higher than the last) but we and the vet were suspicious of some of her symptoms, so did the TRH-Stim test and it came back *X8* normal range. The upper limit is 100, her reading was 800
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I did ask the vet but she said there was no real reason (other than paranoid owner) to suspect cushings. We've tested her twice with the ACTH method. I'll have another chat with them. She has some quirky other symptoms like anhydrosis which I've read can be a symptom.

fusspot said:
Did you run a IR/EMS by a blood test or Glucose test
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She has PSSM type 1 so a glucose test would finish her off! Last time we tested her levels I'd let her graze so she'd had as much 'sugar' as she's ever allowed to have normally and both glucose and insulin levels were very low. Both typical of a symptomatic PSSM horse (very insulin sensitive - the opposite to EMS). Being insulin sensitive doesn't preclude laminitis for other reasons though so she's back with her muzzle on.

Red-1 said:
I would reduce hay to 1.5% of bodyweight, feed soaked, with supplementary straw to fill the belly. I would also give a good quality supplement, a mug of soaked speedy beet, with straw chaff.

I know I ave mentioned it before, but I would also ring Trinity Consultants. I have no idea what is in the product, but I do know that all the Lami pages rate it, and it has had good results for me the twice I have used it.
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That's pretty much her normal diet. Spends her life on restricted rations of soaked hay. She's on a track in summer but we've had flooded fields so its been a struggle for ideal turnout. Trinity products have never worked well for her. They have a good understanding of laminitics and I know people who swear by them but she tied up badly on L94 and their P45 product is designed for insulin resistance so would make her worse I think. She's been OK on Ron Fields Remount before so I put her on that tonight.

No pulses fortunately and her neck was less solid this morning after a night in with soaked (frozen) hay. I'm trying to understand the mechanism by which their crests go solid. I appreciate everyone says its a laminitis warning - I'm aware of that having had a laminitic in the past - but I'm trying to understand the WHY part of it. Every article refers to EMS which she doesn't have so there must be more to the pattern.
 
Many a time, I have asked the vet to check a small animal, been told that there is nothing wrong and then had to go back a couple of weeks later, because I was correct but had picked up on subclinical signs. TBH if you are paying the bill, I can't think of any reason for the vet to not to the TRH-Stim test. If it comes back OK you will have ruled out Cushings, if not you have an obvious course of action.
 
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I know how you feel Sel - my pony doesn’t have cushings or EMS but too much grass - especially frozen and his neck goes solid. I got caught out the other week with the first frost, by the time I’d got him in - his neck was solid and his pulses pounding ? He puts on weight just looking over the fence and the only way I can keep him alive is to keep him off the grass. I would be interested as to what causes this. I had all the tests - nothing came back (other than an empty bank account ?)
 
Copied and pasted from calm heathy horses -

We learned from Dr Deb Bennett PhD (who has conducted many dissections), that “the horse's "crest" is made of fibro-fatty sub-cutaneous (adipose) tissue similar in texture to high-density foam”.

Have you ever wondered how it is that the ‘crest’ of the neck can harden so rapidly? Sometimes overnight?

The actual reason is because it goes ‘turgid’ (it fills with fluid). Like foam, the crest tissue can take up water like a sponge; so it swells and hardens because fluid ‘leaks’ into it, filling the interstitial spaces until it is hard as a rock, and ‘softens’ when electrolyte balances are corrected thereby allowing fluid to be resorbed.

When the crest swells with edema, other parts of the horse's body like the abdomen and the hooves (significantly the digital cushion is made of similar material, it is a thick wedge of fibro-fatty subcutaneous tissue) -- are liable to be in trouble, too.

Hardening of the ‘crest’ coincides with not only spring and autumn growth spurts but also potassium and nitrogen spikes in autumn and winter grasses. It coincides with early signs of laminitis which are ‘stiffening’ of gait and being ‘footy’.

It is a sure indication that one cause of ‘pasture related laminitis’ is as much to do with mineral imbalances, (particularly potassium and nitrogen excesses concurrent with salt deficit) as sugars and starches. It explains why short Autumn grass can cause laminitis when analysis shows soluble sugars + starch content is only 7.5% while potassium is 3.4%, sodium only 0.154%, nitrogen 5.8%, nitrates 2290mgs/kg (far too high, in mature grass/hay they are undetectable).
It is one of the many reasons clover is such a ‘no-no’ for EMS/laminitis equines and a likely explanation why there are some insulin resistant/elevated insulin horses that can't tolerate Lucerne (alfalfa) and is why Lucerne can perpetuate laminitis when everything else is being done ‘right’.

People who own horses with EMS are aware they need to pay attention to this vital sign: that just before a horse has a bout of laminitis, the normally soft and spongy crest stands up firm and hard. Then they can immediately reduce potassium/nitrogen intake by eliminating short, green grass replacing it with soaked hay and make sure they add salt to feeds and not rely on a salt lick. If action is taken quickly enough in these early stages, laminitis can be averted, you can ‘dodge a bullet’.

Soaking hay for about an hour not only reduces sugars but also reduces potassium levels by 50%.

Therefore a very important aspect of EMS and laminitis is that identifying and addressing mineral imbalances (particularly high potassium/nitrogen & low salt) are equally as important as sugar and starch content when rehabilitating individuals and assessing suitability of forage for these compromised equines.

Not sure how accurate it all is but interesting perspective on mineral imbalances can play a role in it!
 
I've only just seen some replies on here - sorry!

She's been muzzled since I wrote this post and although she can definitely get some grass through the muzzle it is very limited. Soaked hay when she's in at night - and she's ravenous. Stomach-wise she has deflated but that crest is still pretty solid. I'm aware of the CHH potassium view because its come up on the myopathy FB boards before and I already supplement extra salt and magnesium. I wouldn't be surprised if its some form of electrolyte imbalance but a friend also suggested hormones

When I started the thread I had a very stressy mare who had got completely fixated on one of her mare friends. Not the first time she's done this but I've never made a correlation with her crest before - not been looking.

The crest hasn't gone down much despite the muzzling (no pulses, no footiness) but I have just started adding Agnus Castus / Chaste berry to see if that helps regulate her hormones at all. She's never struck me as a particularly hormonal mare but perhaps she just has different triggers. I know there's some evidence that Agnus Castus helps with PPID so if it does help with her crest then I'll speak again to the vet about testing.

Hormones out of whack with the change on weather, increased daylight I could understand - although not why it causes a mahoosive crest.
 
mustardsmum said:
I know how you feel Sel - my pony doesn’t have cushings or EMS but too much grass - especially frozen and his neck goes solid. I got caught out the other week with the first frost, by the time I’d got him in - his neck was solid and his pulses pounding ? He puts on weight just looking over the fence and the only way I can keep him alive is to keep him off the grass. I would be interested as to what causes this. I had all the tests - nothing came back (other than an empty bank account ?)
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I do think the Calm Healthy Horses people are onto something with their electrolyte imbalance theory - I know a few people who swear by their products. Mine is grazing with 2 unmuzzled natives neither of whom (touch wood) have any issues even though both should be obvious EMS candidates
 
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