Role of the inside hand in schooling (please put in words)

[Fiona]

Recently I have been riding a little horse for a friend (she is a better rider than me, just is too tall for her little mare who has only grown to 14.3) and she is helping me get to grips with M's flatwork.

She has commented on my use of the inside hand in schooling...

If I feel I need a bit more extra 'roundness' I will open (sideways not backwards) my inside hand combined with a small squeeze on the inside rein.

Friend has commented on this because she doesn't do it at all, and so I was wondering.. have I picked up a really bad habit, or do others do this too.

I know its a bit too obvious an aid for test riding, but at home is this acceptable. I don't see a problem with it as long as the outside contact is maintained, and the horse isn't allowed to fall out through its outside shoulder, but someone please tell me if it is a real 'no-no' and I will endeavour to stop doing it (I'll have to stop doing it on M anyway, because she doesn't understand the aid and it doesn't work for her, but my two horses at home def respond well to it).

If it is a really bad habit I've picked up than I would like to know sooner rather than later

Many thanks for any help in putting why I do this into words, and for telling me if it is a good aid, a bad aid, or somewhere in the middle.

Fiona

 

[Weezy]

I don't mind it, opening the rein for me usually softens the contact, but I can be rigid so this movement helps fluidity. It is always preferable to open the rein than to bring the hand towards the stomach but you knew that anyway!

 

[Fiona]

Thanks Weezy - I think partly it is a bad habit of mine (as I was even doing it walking on a long rein cooling her off), but I also 'think' it is a helpful aid in certain circumstances.

I was not articulate enough sadly this evening to put my point across, thats why I thought some of you lovely peeps might be able to put my rambling thoughts into words.

Any takers???

Fiona

 

[yeeharider]

I dont think its a bad habit, opening the inside hand creates space allowing the horse to drop in and soften the contact. I use this often and always get good comments for my hands in style and performance

 

[kerilli]

hmm, according to my trainer (very classical old-school German, trained by Neindorff), "the inside hand acts like a handbrake on the inside hind leg".
so, he teaches me to keep the inside hand "on the place" (not moving), constant, elastic, always thinking of trying to be lighter and softer with it while maintaining the contact, "the inside hand belongs to the horse."
so, i'll open the rein slightly on a green horse to show them the way, but not squeeze it, that's the job of the outside hand.
i realise that this isn't how everyone does it though, but it's worked for him for decades up to Grand Prix, and it works for mine...

 

[Fiona]

I dont think its a bad habit, opening the inside hand creates space allowing the horse to drop in and soften the contact. I use this often and always get good comments for my hands in style and performance

Thanks yeeharider - I'm starting to feel a little better. I have no self confidence in myself in these situations, feel like I have to justify this now, as they obviously don't use this aid.

It would be interesting to have a reply from a 'pure dressage' person though, as maybe it is a complete no-no in this field.

Fiona

 

[diggerbez]

well for me my inside hand is uncontrollable so it does what it wants no, seriously, i try to use it to help guide but like you i try to go sideways rather than back but i don't squeeze on it as such. i also give it forwards a fair bit but i think thats because i have a tendency to become very fixed in the hand so its instructors way of stopping me from doing this i think its not a bad habit unless you do it all of the time without thinking about it...then it is a bad habit

 

[Fiona]

hmm, according to my trainer (very classical old-school German, trained by Neindorff), "the inside hand acts like a handbrake on the inside hind leg".
so, he teaches me to keep the inside hand "on the place" (not moving), constant, elastic, always thinking of trying to be lighter and softer with it while maintaining the contact, "the inside hand belongs to the horse."
so, i'll open the rein slightly on a green horse to show them the way, but not squeeze it, that's the job of the outside hand.
i realise that this isn't how everyone does it though, but it's worked for him for decades up to Grand Prix, and it works for mine...

Thanks K - friends are obviously singing from the same hymn sheet as you (and your trainer) in this regard, as the little mare responds much better to a squeeze on the outside rein to ask her to soften. Once she softens, then it is easy to very subtly lighten the inside contact which ties in with your 'inside rein belongs to the horse'.

Oh dear - habits (even if not a bad habit as such) are so very difficult to un-learn, and I really want to 'learn' how to ride this little horse well, and pressing different buttons to those that her owner has taught her is not the way forward to getting good dressage scores.

Fiona

 

[Booboos]

I have loads of problems with my inside hand with F, although none with R, so at least in my case the horse does make a huge difference!!

I get told off for relying too much on the inside hand on the right rein (where he leans on it) and not enough contact on the left rein (where he fails to follow through). My trainer says that the bend should always come from the inside leg, the horse should 'make room' for the inside leg and bend his entire body around it. The horse should follow the inside rein around, but more than this can result in a 'broken' neck.

 

[Fiona]

well for me my inside hand is uncontrollable so it does what it wants no, seriously, i try to use it to help guide but like you i try to go sideways rather than back but i don't squeeze on it as such. i also give it forwards a fair bit but i think thats because i have a tendency to become very fixed in the hand so its instructors way of stopping me from doing this i think its not a bad habit unless you do it all of the time without thinking about it...then it is a bad habit

Sometimes I am doing it without thinking about it (ie walking in long rein walk on a circle) so I will have to be a lot more conscious I think even on own horses at home.

Will be interesting to see how they respond to 'slightly' different aid, will have to make sure they are really stepping away from the inside leg so I don't feel the need to open inside rein going into a turn.

Fiona

 

[Fiona]

I have loads of problems with my inside hand with F, although none with R, so at least in my case the horse does make a huge difference!!

I get told off for relying too much on the inside hand on the right rein (where he leans on it) and not enough contact on the left rein (where he fails to follow through). My trainer says that the bend should always come from the inside leg, the horse should 'make room' for the inside leg and bend his entire body around it. The horse should follow the inside rein around, but more than this can result in a 'broken' neck.

OK - I'm thinking maybe my horses don't step away from inside leg enough.

I feel lots of spiralling circles and leg yielding coming up over the next few days, and then perhaps I can see if 'opening' the hand is really needed any more.

Fiona

 

[Chloe_GHE]

I concur with Kerilli as my new 'german style' instructor subscribes to this method too, she also says that the contact should be even in both reins and that there's no such thing as 'inside leg to outside hand' she is teaching me to use the inside hand to half halt and by raising it to bring them in and out on circle, but for young/novice horses these things need to be exaggerated etc it's not a bad habit to have or hard to get out of so don't worry I'm sure you will adapt quickly

 

[daisycrazy]

The role of the inside hand is to remain constant and elastic. The position of the hand has different effects. If you want the horse to soften at the base of the neck, then maybe opening the inside rein is best (encouraging the horse's shoulders to move out). If you want the horse to soften at the poll, then moving the inside rein towards (but not across) the withers is best. Both work best if you raise the hand at the same time, but without pulling backwards. If I want a horse to soften to the inside, I flex it to the outside, wait for it to soften at the poll and then allow it back.

Whilst the contact should be even down both reins, half halts and resisting rein aids should be applied down the outside rein. Where a resisting aid is used on the inside, it should be brief. A half halt down the inside rein will generally result in the inside hind being put down earlier or in crookedness, whereas a half halt down the outside rein (whilst keeping the inside rein elastic) should encourage a longer step through with the inside hind. A halt halt has a bit more to it than just a rein aid though.

The role of the inside hand is often to allow the other aids to do their job, but that is quite a subtle and complicated thing to do and the position and degree of resistance of the inside hand can have a dramatic effect on the horse's way of going.

 

[teapot]

I tend to move my inside hand forward and back to the correct position, never backwards & then forwards if that makes sense? Also use it to squeeze and unsqueeze the contact to offer something to the horse.

Also it supports my inside leg and acts in the same way my outside hand/leg does in as much as keeping the horse in as straight as possible channel. Lucinda Green always goes on about a tube of toothpaste and whilst she uses it regarding jumping things, it was drummed into me from a young age that a horse needs support on both sides on the flat as in much as the outside stops the horse falling out and the inside stops falling in. When I rode yesterday on a young but well schooled pony working towards keeping that consistent outline, I was using and supporting with my inside as much as my outside hand/leg to keep that straightness and bend (when needed).

 

[Grey_Eventer]

I was taught to use it as if i was leading my horse round the arena, thus having it open and quite out to the inside of the arena... helps my horse to soften and keep him straight.
I have a tendency to cross it over the withers to slow him down, but having it out means its harder to do that Like others also use it to ask for a contact through squeezing.

 

[Tharg]

the inside hand acts like a handbrake on the inside hind leg".
so, he teaches me to keep the inside hand "on the place" (not moving), constant, elastic, always thinking of trying to be lighter and softer with it while maintaining the contact,

Is it elastic in feel *its late brain tired*

 

[JustMe22]

The only thing I have to offer is my experience with the whole inside hand thing. I was training with a pretty good dressage instructor, but she used a lot of 'bend the horse to the inside to soften' and playing with the inside rein etc etc, partly because she believes you use the inside rein to soften, but it was over exaggerated due to my ex-racer being completely clueless about what anything meant.

However..after going along with it for a while, I started jumping and had a lesson with another dressage instructor. I've realised I was overusing my inside rein..as in, A LOT. Now my horse is getting used to going on the outside rein, he's suddenly miles better. His turns are better (used to hang coming out of them), he doesn't drift as much, and he takes a contact better. In general I've found it much easier to get him soft and round lately by him going on my outside rein..

Sorry, I know that was long winded..all I'm trying to say is if its working, fine..but don't over do it. And when you find yourself doing it as a response to most things and using it if they come against the hand, to balance them, to steer them etc etc without thinking about it...then its a bad habit

 

[kerilli]

Tharg, yes, it is elastic in feel. as if the whole rein is made of elastic. i don't think the Elastic-insert reins help with this though, it's a feeling that just takes a long time to get (or maybe that was just me), to keep the shoulder, elbow and wrist elastic, not block, either hold (with elasticity, never a hard hold) or soften, instantaneously depending on the horse. The moment s/he gives at the poll and the jaw, soften slightly to reward. Always trying to be lighter.
I think JustMe22's post highlights the big problem - some people teach this, many don't. Horses get the hang of it very very fast imho (faster than riders!), most in less than 30 mins (even if v hollow and resistant to begin with) because they really enjoy the security and comfort of the fact that the inside rein is always there, soft, elastic, giving, constant. we all know that horses like things to stay the same, and this is like a 'safety blanket' for them... even in an exciting comp situation you can establish the inside rein contact, ride from inside leg to outside hand, and they go "oh yes, that's the same, i know that, i can relax into this."
i agree totally with everything daisycrazy has written.
Chloe, I don't agree with your instructor, sorry! the half-halt should never be down the inside rein, as it 'stops' the inside hind, the engaging/carrying hindleg, which is the last thing you ever want to do.
I think this system is still "inside leg to outside hand" (although i know some top instructors hate that phrase)- the way I make sense of it is that the inside leg is active, engaging, and so is the outside hand (squeezing, giving, catching the energy, holding), so that's one diagonal, while the outside leg is usually passive but there and so is the inside rein. (the other diagonal)
so, it is two legs to two hands (all doing something), but also inside leg to outside hand (on an active diagonal, and a more passive diagonal)
Eventually you do get to an even weight/contact in the reins but when schooling i might have it quite different, depending on how the horse is reacting.
sorry if that sounds horribly complicated, it makes sense in my head!

 

[TalaveraII]

K - It didn't sound so complicated on Weds ??!!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

hmmmmm :feelsanessaycommingon:

i think there are a lot of ways to anwser this, as in training, you will do different things than how you would ride in a ring in front of a judge.

the system i use works a lot on neck control and being able to move different parts of the horses body around, so training wise i am using the inside hand (in conjunction with inside leg) to ask for inside flexion, and (in conjunction with outside rein) in a slightly lowered position to ask for a lower neck. nothing complicated, i sometimes think people get freaked out by actually using the reins, esp the inside rein, but the front end control is just as important as the back end control!

the above would form more part of my warm up, or to target a specific area, the end aim is that the horse is contained lightly by the outside rein, and the inside hand is always an inch in advance, allowing the inside hind to step though and encouraging the horse to take the contact forward. so in that respect i would disagree that there is no inside leg to outside hand. should ALL the weight be in your outside hand, no. but it is the outside rein that contains the outline, and half halts for more activity.the inside hand does very little bar ask for flexion and even that must come from the leg as much as the hand.

i,personally, have 3 very specific ways of riding and the function of my hands changes for each-long and low (generally used for cooling down), hands dont too much other than allow the horse to seek the contact down.
-deep, which is how i generlaly warm my horses up (to varying degrees), and i dont mean rollkur, just lowered neck, slightly btv,light contact and really pumping through from behind.
here my hands are lower and a little wider (but not pulling back) so that i can ride the neck down from the withers. even on a very loose rein my horses will follow my hands down without being forced or held and here i DO sometimes open the inside hand to encourage a deeper stretch or to help maintain the flexion, and allow me to funnel the horse back to the outside contact and not load the inside shoulder.
by the time i am picking the horse *up* to a competition frame my hands are very much *back in the box* and i would not be using an opened inside hand-the horse should have been schooled and warmed up to know to reach evenly for the contact and stay with my hands, i shouldnt need to do too much micro managing-if you are having to constantly squeeze/move/open the rein the horse is not in self carrige. obviously this is the end result, and the reason why i dont ride my youngsters *up* too often until they have started to learn and remember the above.

 

[kerilli]

it is the outside rein that contains the outline, and half halts for more activity.the inside hand does very little bar ask for flexion and even that must come from the leg as much as the hand.

if you are having to constantly squeeze/move/open the rein the horse is not in self carriage.

Yes, exactly that.
Agree with all the rest too!

the only thing i'd add is that if you are having to constant use the outside rein to keep the horse 'round' then s/he isn't through, or truly giving at the poll and jaw.


T, it was windy, you prob couldn't hear most of my blathering...

 

[Chloe_GHE]

i,personally, have 3 very specific ways of riding and the function of my hands changes for each-long and low (generally used for cooling down), hands dont too much other than allow the horse to seek the contact down.
-deep, which is how i generlaly warm my horses up (to varying degrees), and i dont mean rollkur, just lowered neck, slightly btv,light contact and really pumping through from behind.
here my hands are lower and a little wider (but not pulling back) so that i can ride the neck down from the withers. even on a very loose rein my horses will follow my hands down without being forced or held and here i DO sometimes open the inside hand to encourage a deeper stretch or to help maintain the flexion, and allow me to funnel the horse back to the outside contact and not load the inside shoulder.
by the time i am picking the horse *up* to a competition frame my hands are very much *back in the box* and i would not be using an opened inside hand-the horse should have been schooled and warmed up to know to reach evenly for the contact and stay with my hands, i shouldnt need to do too much micro managing-if you are having to constantly squeeze/move/open the rein the horse is not in self carrige. obviously this is the end result, and the reason why i dont ride my youngsters *up* too often until they have started to learn and remember the above.

This is almost my lessons verbatim esp the 'back in the box' with the hands bit
we are still slightly micromanging though the odd half halt and picking up the inside shoulder here and there, but we are on our way to a more consistent self carriage

 

[K27]

I've always been told that your inside hand is to "direct" the horse (to a certain extent you can also direct with the outside rein, but the outside rein is predominantly for controlling the shoulders and mainly the speed of the horse). I never will squeeze the rein although I know some riders that do, but I've not been taught in this way, if that makes sense.
It is not a backwards hand but an open, directing hand following the horses movement, when the horse is soft and where you would like them then your hands belong to the horse

Mainly I will ride with my hands quite wide to channel and direct, elbows very bent and upper arm tucked in so that I can maintain my position. Obv for a competiton frame you may want your hands placed "together" more.

Don't know if that helps, I'm sure there will be someone who can explain it much better than what I have here.

 

[Fiona]

OK - first of all many thanks to all who have replied, ChloeGHE,Prince33Spa4kle, JustMe22, K27 etc. Really interesting to get imput from others, and to see how advice varies due to stage of training, type of schooling session and between instructors.

I think I may be at the stage where JustMe 22 was - ie using an aid that was no longer required because the horse had moved on from that stage of basic training.

The good news is - I rode this morning without moving my inside hand 'in' at all, making a very conscious effort to regulate speed and roundness solely from the outside rein........

and my mare went as well as she has done for a while , very balanced and consistent in her outline.....

SO ITS NOT A BAD HABIT (IS IT?) IF I CAN STOP DOING IT

Thank you all again.

Fiona

 

[Booboos]

Just a little tip I got the other day for keeping hands still (F fixes his neck against me and moves my hands like a pendulum, so it's really tough to keep them still): hold onto the reins as normal with thumbs on top, take a whip and turn it horizontally so that you can now hold it by hooking it with your two thumbs (so you are holding it with both hands and it's no longer working as a whip at all but kind of like a tray) - if you can make sense of what I mean, it works really well.

 

[Fiona]

Have always meant to try that booboos, but never got round to it. Bridging the reins might have the same effect, in that hands couldn't move apart too much.

However - seem to be (hopefully) cracking the problem at the moment - thanks.

Fiona