Rolf Harris is on channel 5 at equine hospital

She wasn't a nurse she was a student, who may never have seen a foaling before. She did appear to phone and report what she saw straight away which is what she was there to do. As has already been explained the intern is looking after a number of sick horses, 24 hours a day, they cannot sit and watch them all. He could well have been dealing with another emergency, say a colic which needed his attention far more than a mare in possible early stages of foaling. It was very sad, but I really don't think we can judge when we really don't know all the circumstances, or even the timings involved, there could have been some heavy editing.
 
I watched this last night and was gripped. What would cause a mare to tear the muscle wall in the way she did? unbelievably at the end that there was only skin holding in the uterus etc so genuinely interested
 
Luci07 said:
I watched this last night and was gripped. What would cause a mare to tear the muscle wall in the way she did? unbelievably at the end that there was only skin holding in the uterus etc so genuinely interested
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same can happen to human, *shudder*. I think its just one of those things afaik
 
I'm glad to hear the student nurse who got kicked in the face made a full recovery.

Why wasn't the dead foal put in with the mare for a while so that she could see it was dead? Is it because of infection-risk? Just wondering if mare would have been less distressed if she'd seen her baby.

As this programme was probably made some months ago, any update on how the mare's recovery is? Hope she's doing well.

Interesting to hear how the St Bernard is doing too. Wonder what that hip operation cost, 4k?
 
I would think a previous foaling would of caused the tear , to which if it did why the hell the owner but her back in foal knowing the risks is belong belief , foals can start disintegrating after 24 hrs so its possible but to say foal was turning was complete crap ,
I always think people need to start some where , no matter the job , but to leave a student on foal watch alone is very irresponsible they should of least had a qualified vet nurse or someone who knows about signs of foaling .
 
ischa said:
I would think a previous foaling would of caused the tear , to which if it did why the hell the owner but her back in foal knowing the risks is belong belief ,
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I think that if that was the case then the mare would not have been put back in foal - had the owner been aware of it.
 
I havn't watched it yet but please just bear in mind that the makers of the programme will edit what they want so what you see isn't the whole story. The practice I work at was filmed for vets in practice so I know!!

Also working with animals is unpredictable and dangerous. Things don't always go to plan and although the animals welfare is uppermost you have to protect yourself, your colleagues and the animal too xx
 
amymay said:
I think that if that was the case then the mare would not have been put back in foal - had the owner been aware of it.
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To be honest they would of known at last foaling , even if they didn't, it would of pick up on the number of scans when scanning for twinning etc at that time they would of had time to abort and not follow through to full term ,the vet would of go through the risks what the mare would be facing with such problem
 
ischa said:
I always think people need to start some where , no matter the job , but to leave a student on foal watch alone is very irresponsible they should of least had a qualified vet nurse or someone who knows about signs of foaling .
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In all fairness, although i was amazed at her lack of knowledge, she watched and when she wasn't happy she called for the vet. She in no way risked the mares health infact she may have got the vet there quicker than someone who recognised what the mare was doing and let her get on with it.
As for the foals presentation, the vet on first examining the mare did say he had a head and 2 feet, then he had 3 feet, then the head dropped back. We get lambings like this when the lamb is dead the damn things are a nightmare since the lamb is floppy so contractions can move things around alot. A foal would be no different and remember you have to manipulate and put ropes on etc single handed in the dark.
 
May I suggest that all the knowledgable people on here who are so happy to criticise, make themselves known and next year we can arrange for TV to cover all their foalings and yard workings.

We can then have the opportunity to see how well they perform and when under severe stress whether they utter any expletives!

I know none of the people in the TV programme and am never likely to use the Liverpool Vet hospital due to location. Large animal births etc are never pretty and carry considerable risk to both animal and helper and if you cannot accept that then it is best not to breed.

How easy it is to sit in your armchair and make judgements when you are not in possession of all the facts due to the editorial process.
 
patterdale said:
Can't quote, but IME if the foal was dead enough to be rotting and falling apart he should have been able to tell that straight away. The smell alone is unmistakable.
Then, he should have found the hind leg that was coming through with the fronts first time he checked, but he didn't look for anything beyond the 2 legs and head.
The 'third' leg would have been there all along, presentations don't change that quickly, particularly when the foal is sadly long dead and therefore incapable of movement.

Then when they kept saying the foal was changing position....ditto above.

Also, the girl watching her saying that she was 'trying to urinate and then collapsed' totally missing the fact that it was actually the waters, which my husband spotted before she did.

The various handling shockers.

But mainly the fact that he didn't notice that the foal was dead and presented wrongly straight away.

I know it's hard etc and they did bring the mare through it, but like I say - I wouldn't have been impressed.
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this!!
 
Why is there allot of negative comments about the team involved?! They tried their hardest and the foal would have died anyhow which is very unfortunate.

These people who helped and tried know allot more than we do!
 
The vet would have to have cut the foal out in pieces, that is why is wasn't left with themare. Happens sometimes with calving. Not the vet's favourite job.
 
Can accept programme subject to editing so shouldn't slate them, not saying they don't care but things could have been dealt with better. Would say though that I'm glad they are not the referral centre for us. From 'intensive care' that hadn't checked a heartbeat in 24hrs (sorry, but this is my recollection of the programme), to a foal 'falling to bits' in this time, to lack of headgear when placing student/nurse to be frank any member of staff in such a vulnerable position (& I'd like to see a guy not be pulled under on a rope, horse still stronger than him especially in such an agitated state) without even a hat available (& this foaling was predicted, they saw the wax, spotted first signs of labour, waited for a while to see if she could go it alone). If I'd paid for my mare to be under 'the best' intensive nursing for a month I'd be asking questions.
 
The fact the nurse said " oh no she just had a big wee and collapsed he'd better get my boss as she still wee while on the floor" can't believe a girl looking after a mare due to foal did not recognise waters breaking
 
Well said Sport Horse.

I have been to PLEH many times with a couple of my horses and have found all the staff brilliant - nothing was too much trouble for the patient or the patient's owners. They were efficient, knowledgeable, competant, compassionate and pleasant.

I really felt for the mare last night. And it was so very poignant for me as the mare was in the same stable that my mare was PTS in last Dec.
 
I dont think the foal was rotting. It had been dead 24 hours? If anyone has ever picked up a dead animal they feel floppy, there is no resistance which properly working muscles/tendons have ... I took it that was what vet meant when he said "coming apart"? Agree though, the foal would have been cut up inside the mare to extract it. BUT why had they not been checking heartbeat of foal during the last 24 hours? That would have saved the mare what must have been an excruciatingly painful walk to theatre
 
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For those that missed bits and asked questions:

Male Irish Vet (he of the potty mouth:D though from lip reading not so much as my own vet can be:eek:) said the foal was coming apart and had been dead for 24 hours - this did make me raise an eyebrow as I presumed the foal would have been monitored more than once a day - not critisising - just thought it would have been monitored more than this

The female vet had a northern Irish accent - not Irish/American :D

God alone knows how much the leg surgery was - I had a Saint do his cruciet (sp) ligment and had TPLO (?) surgery - metal bar inserted - about 9 years ago and that used upt the insurance limit of £5k - just to give you an idea.

Only thing that really got me was that "the horses groom had come to collect her" If my horse had been through that nobody would be doing anything with her other than me

Can't wait till next week - I'm finding it very interesting
 
Achinghips said:
I dont think the foal was rotting. It had been dead 24 hours? If anyone has ever picked up a dead animal they feel floppy, there is no resistance which properly working muscles/tendons have ... I took it that was what vet meant when he said "coming apart"? Agree though, the foal would have been cut up inside the mare to extract it. BUT why had they not been checking heartbeat of foal during the last 24 hours? That would have saved the mare what must have been an excruciatingly painful walk to theatre
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a cut up foal would still have meant something to the mare, as for giving her a plastic horse a company what is wrong with a real one?
 
cronkmooar said:
For those that missed bits and asked questions:

Male Irish Vet (he of the potty mouth:D though from lip reading not so much as my own vet can be:eek:) said the foal was coming apart and had been dead for 24 hours - this did make me raise an eyebrow as I presumed the foal would have been monitored more than once a day - not critisising - just thought it would have been monitored more than this

The female vet had a northern Irish accent - not Irish/American :D

God alone knows how much the leg surgery was - I had a Saint do his cruciet (sp) ligment and had TPLO (?) surgery - metal bar inserted - about 9 years ago and that used upt the insurance limit of £5k - just to give you an idea.

Only thing that really got me was that "the horses groom had come to collect her" If my horse had been through that nobody would be doing anything with her other than me

Can't wait till next week - I'm finding it very interesting
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I have a few irish friends and they sound nothing like her!


i know that was a horrid thing to say but her accent made me want to mute the tele :o :o:


but good programme and very interesting............keeping an eye on the foal debate..
 
Achinghips - the foal being dead made no difference to her having to go to theatre, it seems like they would still have had to do a controlled delivery under GA anyway, the foal has to come out whether alive or dead.

As for not checking heartbeat within last 24 hours, what difference would it have made? Even if they had detected the foal was in distress, what would they have done? Elective Caesar (=dead mare and premi foal), induce delivery (premi foal that would prob die)?

Finally, I'd imagine they did show her the foal
 
ischa said:
To be honest they would of known at last foaling , even if they didn't, it would of pick up on the number of scans when scanning for twinning etc at that time they would of had time to abort and not follow through to full term ,the vet would of go through the risks what the mare would be facing with such problem
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Ventral ruptures can and do happen in maiden mares with no warning and as early at 7 or 8 months into the pregnancy.
As far as the program goes i personally though the whole situation was very badly handled.
The mare was far too distressed in the 24 hours before she foaled, that should have given them a clue to check the foal wasnt in distress.
We foal on average 20 mares a year and only twice have i seen a mare trying to stand on end like this one was.
In both cases there was a problem although foal was got out alive.
They probably took the foal away to make sure it wasnt dead because of ehv or anything else contagious that could cause any other mare to abort
 
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