Rolf Harris & like minded horse people

Stateside

Stateside

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The Rolf Harris case has high lighted the Celebes , but over the years there has been many instructors well known competitors in all horse disciplines that have acted in the same way,and still do .This happen's due to young girls & boys who like to be around there idol and are lead astray.
All of you that have been around horses for a long time will know of someone who has a reputation
 
It is very difficult now as you have to be so careful but yes as with all idolatry you will get people who abuse it and be inappropriate with young people out of flattery . Power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely is a pretty fair statement. It happens in schools, Sports and religion so it will happen in the equine world too it is a question of vigilance and education.
 
I don't think farriers (or male grooms) will ever change. I had a groom with kids the same age as me try and get with me... disgusting!
 
I think this thread is really sad and this kind of attitude will drive genuine men and boys out of the sport.

It is possible for men to be around women and girls entirely innocently you know!
 
Kat said:
I think this thread is really sad and this kind of attitude will drive genuine men and boys out of the sport.

It is possible for men to be around women and girls entirely innocently you know!
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Couldn't agree more it is a tiny minority that spoils things for a great majority and it saddens me so much as does all the whooo haaa that has gone on with these trials they shouldn't be allowed to disclose the names of men or women until they are proven guilty and come up sor sentencing sadly someone will start the mass hysteria where ever they can sensationalise things
 
When I was 14, it was the farrier, creepy man.

Also, when I was 17 years old, a neighbour who was an aged ex uni professor. I was over age that time, but it was a bit of a surprise as he was rather wrinkley for my taste, and he was pushy. No laws broken, but a shock all the same.

Both rudely and severely rebuffed!
 
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Sadly, these issues are something we all need to be vigilant of, and it is very common in the horse industry. I've known a few over the years, from yard visitors to employers/colleagues, from unwanted wandering hands to worse. Been on the receiving end myself too. The me of now would react differently, but back then I wasn't as confident, and in one instance the yard owner was actually facilitating it (when I complained, it was all 'hahaha he's done it to everyone, he's just an old man getting his jollies' - this was a yard with lots of teenage helpers, both above and below 16).

However, I don't think these issues should drove men/boys out of the sport. After all they can be victims too and can easily fall into the category of 'vulnerable'. In some cases, a single teenage boy in an all female environment can find himself very vulnerable. Women can be ruddy awful at times. As can men to other men/boys.

In the case of the horse industry, the hold of power is the horses. People stay, and they will put up with an awful lot, because of the horses. So some of us that are older and wiser need to keep our eyes peeled and step in if we see anything.
 
I must be lucky! I've had ponies since I was 2 (25yrs) and never had a bad experience like that! I also don't know anyone in the horsey world like that.
My mum owns care homes and we have one very creepy male resident, mum even employed male staff to prevent his advances onto our mainly younger female staff, only the guys and some of our older female staff are allowed to take him to the loo etc as he is well know for trying to cop a feel as you help him
 
The problem is, if men want access to young children and women they will find themselves a job/hobby that brings them in to contact with them. We had a creepy old bloke running a sweet shop in our village, I didn't twig until I was older. Talk about hiding in plain sight.
 
But does that mean we should be automatically suspicious of any man who does something that brings him into contact with children and women? Even if that contact is purely incidental? Even if he has done nothing suspicious? When you wouldn't question a woman doing the same?

I know a man who trained as a nursery nurse and subsequently quit because he was made to feel so uncomfortable and constantly under suspicion. He didn't do anything wrong other than be a man in a woman's world.

My husband learned to ride as an adult. He followed the advice given to many new riders and started helping out at a riding school to gain experience of caring for horses. He has suffered all kinds of comments and attitudes that a woman just doesn't get. Must be gay or a paedo to hang around horses.

This attitude puts men off the sport or at least being visible at riding schools and pony clubs which then leaves boys with no role models and they become disillusioned and give up because it is all for girls. And the sport is poorer because the next William Fox Pitt or Scott Brash has decided to play football instead.
 
Maybe i'm lucky (or very undesirable) but i have never had anyone be untoward with me when i was younger, apart from a taxi man once but i was one day before my 18th birthday...
 
I lost my cool with one apprentice jockey after he made a sexist remark to me. "When I told him to never speak to me like that ever again" his reply was that he thought us girls liked being spoken to like that.

I explained that the majority of young girls would be too embarrassed to show what they really felt. Peer pressure! I told him to treat girls with respect, his attitude improved after our altercation.

My sister-in-Law was one of Jimmy Savills indiscretions.
 
Hmm. Years ago I did work experience on a Polo yard. A girl from another school was also there, we were both 14. The two full time grooms were there, the girl was keeping us away from the Argentinian polo grooms when we went to play chukkas, little did she know the guy was using the horse box to get with the other girl. I walked in on them once while looking for a first aid kit... They were both incredibly nice to me afterwards but I don't think the fact she was 14 and there because of school would have gone down well had anyone really found out.
 
With all due respect women are just as bad - you only have to look at certain threads on here to see that, male jods anyone? The problem is that thanks to all this media hysteria no-one trusts men any more and that is prejudicial and I don't like it.
 
The best way to keep kids safe is to educate them.

Not cast aspersions on every male working in the industry.
 
Educate but not scare monger is the best way to prevent incidents occurring.
I am sick to death of the bogey man approach to people and yes women are just as bad if not worse now than men both in committing sexually insensitive acts and reporting the innocent banter as assault. I can never condone any sexual assault but for a woman to say she has been sexually assaulted because someone put their arm round her and touched her breast is a nonsense especially if they have been involved in typical messing around in the first place. I would suspect a lot of young men could persue claims of sexual harassment in the horsey world as being a minority they can easily become victims of ribald comment
 
amymay said:
The best way to keep kids safe is to educate them.

Not cast aspersions on every male working in the industry.
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Education's certainly important but however well we feel a very young person has been taught, they can remain vulnerable simply because they are so young. Also, that education needs to come from their home background and we can't guarantee that children in our care (on yards etc) do get that from their families.

We have a duty of care to look out for vulnerable people around us. I work with learning disabled individuals who are at a disadvantage where "education" is concerned, and safeguarding them is a huge issue and the responsibility of everyone.
 
windand rain, it's all about intent and consent. If someone intentionally touches a woman's breast against her will, it's sexual assault, pure and simple.

If it's consentual/mutual or an accident, it's not.
 
But at what point do you involve the police? As someone who grew up in the 70s things were different. Bum pinching was quite common - what would be the view now. When do you decide it just a bit of WHT (wandering hand trouble) or an assault. Really confused and I'm an ex Wpc (and I've been chased round a desk by an inspector)! Not saying in any way that what Rolf did to young his is right but where do we draw the line? Many of you here say you have experienced incidents but did you involve the police
 
FionaM12 said:
windand rain, it's all about intent and consent. If someone intentionally touches a woman's breast against her will, it's sexual assault, pure and simple.

If it's consentual/mutual or an accident, it's not.
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I think that can be generalized to any sort of touching, between anyone, against their will.
 
fburton said:
I think that can be generalized to any sort of touching, between anyone, against their will.
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But the grey areas with this are such as couple on a date, passionate kissing, he thinks.'s she's keen, he puts hand on breast - sexual assault? Should he stop kissing and ask permission to touch her? So difficult to judge.
 
Ah but consent can be implied or given if you have been messing around play fighting and romping as many young people do a bit of consent is implied but where do you draw the line that is what gets me. I am a prickly sort of person and don't like people in my space but sometimes someone be it man or woman will drop and arm round me which inevitably brushed a boob If I asked them not to touch me I will be seen to be a bit odd or unfriendly so often get unwanted hugs and air kisses. It isn't assault but it is reluctant consent. I have seen a group of older women grasp a teenage boy and hug him pushing his face in their boobs and embarrassing him he would laugh it off but he has been just as sexually assaulted as a girl who has had her bum pinched It all seems a bit PC to me what is right for one should be right for anyone male or female and as such should be an education and a permitted level thing. Why is it ok for women to grab men but not the other way round sorry just don't understand where a huge majority of this nonsense has arisen from. Everyone under the age of 25 will soon need a bubble suit so no one can get near them.
The vulnerable and those unable to understand the rules of course should be protected and of course those around them should care for them and try and prevent an abuse of the innocent
 
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Double_choc_lab said:
But the grey areas with this are such as couple on a date, passionate kissing, he thinks.'s she's keen, he puts hand on breast - sexual assault? Should he stop kissing and ask permission to touch her? So difficult to judge.
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That is a good point. Grey areas indeed. In the case of a couple kissing, there is already an implicit consent, so if his further advance is rebuffed that should be taken as withholding of permission. I do NOT believe it should be considered sexual assault though, unless clear indications (which may include verbal repudiation) are subsequently ignored.

windand rain said:
I have seen a group of older women grasp a teenage boy and hug him pushing his face in their boobs and embarrassing him he would laugh it off but he has been just as sexually assaulted as a girl who has had her bum pinched
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I agree that is an assault. Appalling, and an abuse of power. I also agree it is not okay for women to grab men.
 
Kat said:
I think this thread is really sad and this kind of attitude will drive genuine men and boys out of the sport.

It is possible for men to be around women and girls entirely innocently you know!
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^^^^^^
This, I work in a domestic violence unit and see DV and sexual abuse cases daily. It would quite easy to think all men are like this, however its only a small minority. It is right to raise awareness/ educate to ensure genuine victims get justice and help but I think media storms can heighten the issue so it seems there are lots of these cases and its a new issue. Its not a new issue, things like this have always gone on. Also men can be the victims of DV and sexual abuse, however I think due to the society we live in, its harder for male victims to stand up.
 
EstherYoung said:
However, I don't think these issues should drove men/boys out of the sport. After all they can be victims too and can easily fall into the category of 'vulnerable'. In some cases, a single teenage boy in an all female environment can find himself very vulnerable. Women can be ruddy awful at times. As can men to other men/boys.

In the case of the horse industry, the hold of power is the horses. People stay, and they will put up with an awful lot, because of the horses. So some of us that are older and wiser need to keep our eyes peeled and step in if we see anything.
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RebelRebel said:
The problem is, if men want access to young children and women they will find themselves a job/hobby that brings them in to contact with them. We had a creepy old bloke running a sweet shop in our village, I didn't twig until I was older. Talk about hiding in plain sight.
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What needs to happen is that young people should be empowered to recognise that certain things are wrong and not their fault, no matter what the perpetrator says and to speak up. Any-one who is told about abuse or suspects it, should believe the victim and notify the right service to deal with it.
I have worked in schools (years ago), where the Head was more than happy to ignore signs of abuse, even when they were brought to her attention. I also believe now that I have taught sexually abused children but did not recognise that at the time. Now I would be notifying social services but that illustrates the benefit of experience and the enhanced confidence that brings.
Training for all the professionals and in some cases volunteers, who come into contact with children and young people needs to include detailed training about what to watch for. Teachers, especially in Primary schools, are in a particularly good position to build the kind of trusting relationship needed for disclosure.
 
A story from a family friend illustrates one solution to the problem. Many years ago friends parents were going to market, mother intending to leave 15 year old daughter to deal with a visior to the farm, father declined to do this, as he had concerns about the visitor. I do worry about parents who do not 'vet' the adults around their children. Abusers come in both sexes and all walks of life, if you have children, then take some basic precautions on their behalf
 
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