Rolf Harris & like minded horse people

[Kat]

But the grey areas with this are such as couple on a date, passionate kissing, he thinks.'s she's keen, he puts hand on breast - sexual assault? Should he stop kissing and ask permission to touch her? So difficult to judge.

And sadly I think this type of grey area has lead to some celebrities being dragged through the courts. Young women throw themselves at a radio dj or soap star it is reciprocated then maybe goes a bit further, maybe further they intended, maybe they were happy at the time but regretted it the next day, maybe they weren't happy but didn't speak up, then 20 years later someone else makes an accusation and every young woman who came into contact with him starts to question whether she was assaulted too.

 

[Double_choc_lab]

I agree Kat and this is why I don't envy the CPS or juries who have to differentiate between this and "real" assaults by predatory criminals

 

[Ibblebibble]

With all due respect women are just as bad - you only have to look at certain threads on here to see that, male jods anyone? The problem is that thanks to all this media hysteria no-one trusts men any more and that is prejudicial and I don't like it.

agree. in fact a group of women can almost be worse!

 

[exracehorse]

The best way to keep kids safe is to educate them.

Not cast aspersions on every male working in the industry.

Exactly

 

[_GG_]

agree. in fact a group of women can almost be worse!

But when women do it, it's funny....right?

There was a great video on facebook the other day. A couple of actors playing the part of a couple in busy area. The man started yelling at the woman, grabbed her by the throat, pushed her up against a fence and it didn't take long AT ALL for there to be a dozen people intervening and giving him what for. A little later, they did the exact same thing, only it was the woman yelling at the man, grabbing him by the throat and pushing him against the fence. People just stood and watched or walked on by. Some were even laughing.

That says it all.

Women can and do commit rape. Women can and do commit sexual abuse of the most severe nature against children. Women do physically abuse and mentally abuse their partners/children.

Women "having a laugh" and pushing a lads face in their chest is not funny or fun. It's not "ok" and if any woman doesn't agree...ask them how they would feel if a man shoved their face into his groin!!!

 

[_GG_]

Exactly

Yes, educate them and actually parent them.

Too many people trust too easily. How many stories do we hear of children being abused by "tusted family members" only for that family member to be the partner of a sibling that they have only known for 3 months or similar???

It's not that we shouldn't trust. Of course we should...but we should also be extremely concious of who children are left with unsupervised.

 

[windand rain]

The vast majority of sexual assault and abuse is committed within the family and social circle of the victim old or young. It is extremely rare for the perceived stranger danger to exist. Thankfully this is fact but it just goes to show that it is the caring adults within the family circle that are the greatest risk to children and young adults wich is why they are often disbelieved as surely uncle ***** or Auntie ******* that would'nt dream of abusing a child yeerh right Biggest risk to kids particularly is parents and siblings I believe

 

[sywell]

We have seen a number of high profile people go to jail TV presenter Hall,a barrister judge and now an old man in poor health sent to a prison with no facilities for wheel chairs at the tax payers expense. Their reputations and careers are ruined there should be a finacial penalty some of the 10 million that Harris is worth would be better than sending him to prison for six years. As for Coulson he will probably write a book and make a fortune like Archer did. I sat at lunch with a group of ladies in their 70s and they said it happened 50 years ago and their mothers told them what to expect and a slap in the face in the tube or a dig on the foot with a high heel they also so said these women should grow up things happen.

 

[Slightly Foxed]

We have seen a number of high profile people go to jail TV presenter Hall,a barrister judge and now an old man in poor health sent to a prison with no facilities for wheel chairs at the tax payers expense. Their reputations and careers are ruined there should be a finacial penalty some of the 10 million that Harris is worth would be better than sending him to prison for six years. As for Coulson he will probably write a book and make a fortune like Archer did. I sat at lunch with a group of ladies in their 70s and they said it happened 50 years ago and their mothers told them what to expect and a slap in the face in the tube or a dig on the foot with a high heel they also so said these women should grow up things happen.

Yes, things were very different then, but it doesn't mean they were right. Sexual abuse of kids is wrong, end of!

 

[mynutmeg]

The vast majority of sexual assault and abuse is committed within the family and social circle of the victim old or young. It is extremely rare for the perceived stranger danger to exist. Thankfully this is fact but it just goes to show that it is the caring adults within the family circle that are the greatest risk to children and young adults wich is why they are often disbelieved as surely uncle ***** or Auntie ******* that would'nt dream of abusing a child yeerh right Biggest risk to kids particularly is parents and siblings I believe

This exactly - by far the biggest risk to kids comes from their own parent/uncle/aunt/brother/sister etc rather than 'strangers'. The biggest damage ever done to kid safety was the massive 'stranger danger' campaign as it lead so many people to believe that only stragers could be a risk to kids

 

[splashgirl45]

I worked in offices from age 16 and was much more naïve than the girls of today. there were always men who would try it on with us young girls and you soon got to know which ones to never be alone with and learnt how to deal with unwanted advances. however I also made very good friendships with some of the men I worked with and still (50 years on) keep in touch with one of them(and his lovely wife). there is good and bad in both sexes and its a shame that some men spoil things for the rest...as some others have said I feel very disappointed with rolfe as I always liked him as an entertainer and enjoyed animal hospital when he presented it. I thought I was a good judge of character!!!!obviously not!!!!!!

 

[lastchancer]

We have seen a number of high profile people go to jail TV presenter Hall,a barrister judge and now an old man in poor health sent to a prison with no facilities for wheel chairs at the tax payers expense. Their reputations and careers are ruined there should be a finacial penalty some of the 10 million that Harris is worth would be better than sending him to prison for six years. As for Coulson he will probably write a book and make a fortune like Archer did. I sat at lunch with a group of ladies in their 70s and they said it happened 50 years ago and their mothers told them what to expect and a slap in the face in the tube or a dig on the foot with a high heel they also so said these women should grow up things happen.

Have you read the actual details of these charges? He had explicit preteen imagery fgs.
How on earth is a slap in the face from an 8 year old going to stop a grown man like Harris? I'd suggest that it's the grown men committing these offences and the fools that protect them that need to grow up.
I will add though that I find the sensationalist coverage of these trails extremely distasteful.

 

[sywell]

Have you read the actual details of these charges? He had explicit preteen imagery fgs.
How on earth is a slap in the face from an 8 year old going to stop a grown man like Harris? I'd suggest that it's the grown men committing these offences and the fools that protect them that need to grow up.
I will add though that I find the sensationalist coverage of these trails extremely distasteful.

One of my points is that many ladies of that generation 50 years ago knew well what went on with juvenile groupies and sending these men to prison is a futile punishment as many have grown out of these ways and need punishment that is not a financial burden on the tax payer. Prison is for thugs and to protect society and I am not convinced that sending these old men to prison serves any purpose and the concern today should be about the internet that is where the problems are. They should be hit in the pocket.

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

This exactly - by far the biggest risk to kids comes from their own parent/uncle/aunt/brother/sister etc rather than 'strangers'. The biggest damage ever done to kid safety was the massive 'stranger danger' campaign as it lead so many people to believe that only stragers could be a risk to kids

It's right that much abuse comes from within the family but by far the highest risk is from a single mother's new boyfriend. Very often the woman is befriended by a man & a relationship starts purely for the man to gain access to the children. The abuse then starts on the children & unfortunately the mothers very often will not believe the accounts given by their children & are in denial & do not want to lose their 'boyfriend' so they defend him & cover things up. That is one type of approach but their are others.

People, both men & women, who are interested in sexual contact with young girls or boys will actively seek employment, paid or otherwise to bring them into close proximety with their targets. I say paid or otherwise because you will get paid workers i.e. teachers, social workers, child entertainers, baby sitters, pool attendants & similar & unpaid i.e. scout/cub leaders, youth club people, sports trainers/coaches. This is nothing new, it has been going on for many years but has been brought to the fore with the current cases involving Saville, Harris & Hall. There will be more no doubt, vigilance is needed. Police checks are fine but they only reveal what is known about a person & nothing about someone who has not come to notice before.

I am not recounting what I have heard or read, I have been involved in the investigation of all these types of cases. They are sickening but someone had to do it/. I'm out of it now & well pleased to be.

 

[mulledwhine]

Am alone in that I never had anything put to me ?

 

[_GG_]

It's right that much abuse comes from within the family but by far the highest risk is from a single mother's new boyfriend. Very often the woman is befriended by a man & a relationship starts purely for the man to gain access to the children. The abuse then starts on the children & unfortunately the mothers very often will not believe the accounts given by their children & are in denial & do not want to lose their 'boyfriend' so they defend him & cover things up. That is one type of approach but their are others.

People, both men & women, who are interested in sexual contact with young girls or boys will actively seek employment, paid or otherwise to bring them into close proximety with their targets. I say paid or otherwise because you will get paid workers i.e. teachers, social workers, child entertainers, baby sitters, pool attendants & similar & unpaid i.e. scout/cub leaders, youth club people, sports trainers/coaches. This is nothing new, it has been going on for many years but has been brought to the fore with the current cases involving Saville, Harris & Hall. There will be more no doubt, vigilance is needed. Police checks are fine but they only reveal what is known about a person & nothing about someone who has not come to notice before.

I am not recounting what I have heard or read, I have been involved in the investigation of all these types of cases. They are sickening but someone had to do it/. I'm out of it now & well pleased to be.

Ian Watkins being the classic example of this. Using friendship/relationship with young mothers in order to get to the children.
Yes, a lot of it comes from within the family, but as much as you may think the stranger danger message was dangerous in not helping awareness of possible family abuse, so concentrating your thoughts on it being family can be dangerous in making stranger danger seem less likely.

 

[Ibblebibble]

We have seen a number of high profile people go to jail TV presenter Hall,a barrister judge and now an old man in poor health sent to a prison with no facilities for wheel chairs at the tax payers expense. Their reputations and careers are ruined there should be a finacial penalty some of the 10 million that Harris is worth would be better than sending him to prison for six years. As for Coulson he will probably write a book and make a fortune like Archer did. I sat at lunch with a group of ladies in their 70s and they said it happened 50 years ago and their mothers told them what to expect and a slap in the face in the tube or a dig on the foot with a high heel they also so said these women should grow up things happen.

One of my points is that many ladies of that generation 50 years ago knew well what went on with juvenile groupies and sending these men to prison is a futile punishment as many have grown out of these ways and need punishment that is not a financial burden on the tax payer. Prison is for thugs and to protect society and I am not convinced that sending these old men to prison serves any purpose and the concern today should be about the internet that is where the problems are. They should be hit in the pocket.

they grow out of it so it's ok??!! are you for real? if peodophiles are not criminals what are they?, poor misunderstood people who need cuddles and therapy and then they'll be cured! do you seriously believe they are not a danger to society because they are old? it was my friends grandad who molested me when i was young, he was old and perfectly capable of committing indecent acts!
it was the outdated attitude of 'grow up and deal with it' that kept victims from speaking out, which let the perpetrators carry on with their vile acts. Thankfully that attitude seems to have been left in the 1970's by most normal thinking people.

 

[LaMooch]

The Rolf Harris case has high lighted the Celebes , but over the years there has been many instructors well known competitors in all horse disciplines that have acted in the same way,and still do .This happen's due to young girls & boys who like to be around there idol and are lead astray.
All of you that have been around horses for a long time will know of someone who has a reputation

I have been around horses over 20 years and I can honestly say that I do not know of anyone horsey that I have been around having a reputation other then some rude farrier's

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I sat at lunch with a group of ladies in their 70s and they said it happened 50 years ago and their mothers told them what to expect and a slap in the face in the tube or a dig on the foot with a high heel they also so said these women should grow up things happen.

Why on earth do people start wittering on about how 'different it was in the 70s', on these threads?
There is a vast difference between a wandering hand on the tube or whilst standing waiting to be served at a bar, which indeed can be dealt with by an adult woman by a slap on the face or a strategically placed stiletto heel and the sustained sexual abuse of a minor. Why is that difficult to understand?
It has never been legal or socially acceptable to sexually abuse children in my lifetime - and I started teaching in the 70s.

 

[mynutmeg]

Ian Watkins being the classic example of this. Using friendship/relationship with young mothers in order to get to the children.
Yes, a lot of it comes from within the family, but as much as you may think the stranger danger message was dangerous in not helping awareness of possible family abuse, so concentrating your thoughts on it being family can be dangerous in making stranger danger seem less likely.

I think it's very much about ensuring that people are aware that there is no restriction on where it comes from. The sick perverts who do this sort of thing are very much in the minority and shouldn't tar an entire sex of our species but parents/guardians need to be aware that the dangers come from those they know (and often love) as well as being aware of the risk of strangers (by strangers I mean total strangers, not teacher/youth group leader/position of trust etc) One of the biggest problems comes from the huge amount of damage that is done to the children/young people affected by this, and not jsut the one who has been abused - it has a massive impact on families/siblings etc for the rest of their lives.
When I was younger I spend a fair amount of time in waiting rooms of teenager/young people units of our local mental hospital as my sister had issues and the vast majority of the young people in those units had been abused - not all but easily more than 50% so it has a massive impact on their life, it also affects how they interact with men / people in positions of power for the rest of their lives. To me this means that, as a parent, you can never, ever be too careful about your childs safety which is so wrong that you have to be that aware and distrustful as the vast majority of men and women do not have these desires towards children but you have to protect against the very small minority of people who do.
I think a lot of people in positions of trust also need to learn that it is rare for a child to lie about this sort of experience - there will always be the odd one but the vast majority need to be believed and have it throughly investigated, same with adult rape/assault. They should be believed / case investigated BUT I strongly believe that the accussed details should be kept private until it is proven that they have committed these crimes because if their details are released, but they are then found innocent of all charges their life has still been ruined as no-one will remember they were found not guilty, people will always think along the lines of 'well they were suspected so I won't trust them'

 

[Mr Nick]

Kat - must be gay or paedo to hang around horses
interchangeable are they?

 

[Kat]

Kat - must be gay or paedo to hang around horses
interchangeable are they?

According to some people it would seem! Disgusting but not my statement thank you.

 

[twiggy2]

The best way to keep kids safe is to educate them.

Not cast aspersions on every male working in the industry.

I agree, I have worked in the industry for over 25yrs and never have I known of any paedophiles, lots of flirty farriers yes but non that would follow up or even flirt with under 18s

 

[peaceandquiet1]

I am surprised that there must be so many parents who do not have a clue what is happening to their kids-and as I had several "near miss" experiences as a young child I don't accept it is safe to assume that the stranger danger risk is low. As a nurse in my twenties I was grabbed on my bum by one of the surgeons in a lift-handy for him as it was just the two of us. I had been warned about him but I didn't report it-never even crossed my mind as it would have backfired-this was in the eighties.

 

[Mince Pie]

I think a lot of people in positions of trust also need to learn that it is rare for a child to lie about this sort of experience - there will always be the odd one but the vast majority need to be believed and have it throughly investigated,

I agree, kids that can give you details are generally telling the truth as they are usually too young to be able to lie about that sort of thing, however

same with adult rape/assault. They should be believed / case investigated

BUT I strongly believe that the accussed details should be kept private until it is proven that they have committed these crimes

this is definitely something that should happen - there have been several cases where women have brought false allegations of rape and their identity has been kept hidden whereas the man's identity has been published and he's lost everything because of it. Unfortunately some women will go out and get drunk, have a one night stand, regret it in the morning and then are very quick to cry rape. I think there should be very harsh penalties for false rape accusations.

 

[_GG_]

I agree, kids that can give you details are generally telling the truth as they are usually too young to be able to lie about that sort of thing, however



this is definitely something that should happen - there have been several cases where women have brought false allegations of rape and their identity has been kept hidden whereas the man's identity has been published and he's lost everything because of it. Unfortunately some women will go out and get drunk, have a one night stand, regret it in the morning and then are very quick to cry rape. I think there should be very harsh penalties for false rape accusations.

I agree to an extent yes. It's a very tricky one to judge because I can see right and wrong/pro's and cons on both sides of the coin.

In the case of the celebrity cases we have seen, a lot of time and thought has gone into releasing the name of the celebrity and it has usually been done because there is sufficient detail/evidence to support releasing the name in order to increase the chances of other victims coming forward.

Where the accused is just an average Joe, there doesn't seem to be this same level of consideration. It just goes through the legal process at which the media get details and are free to publish, which they do, usually accompanied by the name of the street that the accused lives on as well, sometimes even the house number. I find that level of information given on a person that has not been found guilty of anything to be very much against a persons human rights. Lives have genuinely been ruined. Mud sticks and there are plenty of ignorant people in this world that even when someone is completely exonerated of any wrongdoing, some people will still think they have just "got away with it" so a person is forced to either live with that, or move and always fear the erroneous association catching up with him/her.

I would like to see the details kept private until such a time as there is more evidence, a conviction or at least that further investigations have provided evidence to suggest that there are more victims. That gives a case for needing to publicise, as with celebrities. But to just name a shame as happens so very often is nothing more than a total contradiction of what the justice system is based on at its very core...innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Mince Pie]

Personally I think the names of the accused should be kept private until they are actually found guilty in a court. The victims are kept anonymous, so why shouldn't the accused be offered the same privacy.
As for the celebrity convictions, I am wondering just how much of this is a witch hunt - with them actively trying to get people to come forward to make allegations against people what is to stop someone making a false allegation? It would be very difficult to prove where you were on a day 30/40 years ago...
I'm not saying that some of these aren't completely true, but I do wonder how many false allegations have been made in these cases... According to a quick google search 2 men per month are falsely accused of rape...

 

[smokey]

Personally I think the names of the accused should be kept private until they are actually found guilty in a court. The victims are kept anonymous, so why shouldn't the accused be offered the same privacy.
As for the celebrity convictions, I am wondering just how much of this is a witch hunt - with them actively trying to get people to come forward to make allegations against people what is to stop someone making a false allegation? It would be very difficult to prove where you were on a day 30/40 years ago...
I'm not saying that some of these aren't completely true, but I do wonder how many false allegations have been made in these cases... According to a quick google search 2 men per month are falsely accused of rape...

haven't read all of the thread in detail, but I agree wholeheartedly with anonymity for the accused as well as the alleged victims. Even when found not guilty, the victim is not named, bit the accused has that stigma of being charged for the rest of their lives.

 

[fburton]

Yup, agree with Smokey and B_B_H.

 

[_GG_]

haven't read all of the thread in detail, but I agree wholeheartedly with anonymity for the accused as well as the alleged victims. Even when found not guilty, the victim is not named, bit the accused has that stigma of being charged for the rest of their lives.

Yup, agree with Smokey and B_B_H.

Oh, so do I. I'm just saying that celebrities don't have their names released until it is felt in the public interest to do so...why not the same consideration at the very least for joe public. No, I don't personally think that they should be named until convicted, but they should at least expect the same treatment as a celebrity. Celebrities should not be treated any differently by the justice system.

In terms of the "victim", part of me would like to see this looked at carefully and where there was no doubt about the innocence of the accused and deception of the so called victim, naming should be an option. People should not be allowed to get away with causing so much disruption. That said, many cases fail to convict on lack of evidence, not necessarily because the accused is innocent, so I don't think blanket naming of the "victim" where there is no conviction should be allowed either.