Rollkur

R

Ruthyasquith

Member
Joined
17 June 2012
Messages
12
Visit site
Hi, this may seem a very naive question as I don't know anything about rollkur and certainly don't condone it, however when you are watching a horse being ridden how can you tell if rollkur has been used or that it is just overbent as it is strong? I have noticed quite alot of children on strong ponies have tight hold (due to instinct to grab on when something is strong) and they are so overbent but how do you know if it is down to rollkur?
also is it rollkur when someone puts side reins on their horse in the stable because it rears when someone takes hold of the reins??

I only discovered rollkur today when watching dressage to music this afternoon and am still confused to what it actually is.

Thankyou
 
In answer to your question about ponies, I'd say that's just general overmounting, bad riding and thinking big bits solve problems. I'd doubt it's as organised as rolkur.

To the side reins, that's just idiocy and quite likely cruelty. :)
 
Lots of info there (the page called BTV for behind the vertical is particularly good, you can go to next page at the bottom):
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/how.php

and a book on the subject by a vet:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tug-War-Classical-22Modern-22-Dressage/dp/0851319505

Basically, rollkur is overbending the horse to have the back come up. It puts lots of pressure on the muscles/tendons/ligaments and can prevent correct breathing. A horse that has been trained with rolkur will sometimes not have the diagonal legs parallel (more front leg action than hind leg action) in piaffe or passage
 
I will say though, I doubt the average person could look at a horse that's been ridden in rolkur "properly" (we can debate the ethics of the tool but there is no question there are more and less skilled practitioners) in the ring and definitely say yay or nay. By the same token there are lots of idiots riding with their horses' noses pinned to their chests with no idea what they're after (again, not debating the ethics) or how the horse should feel when it's going correctly. Those you can usually spot a mile away, even when they riders are trying to have them go correctly.
 
I've tried to show what I meant by diagonal parallels or not (look at the red lines I've added):

e8cebd8e.gif


c4592419.png


27b4bd40.png


6db8c643.jpg


The back end also looks sprung out and the hind legs are not under the body when the horse is not working correctly but rider pulling on the bit instead.
 
Last edited:
Palindrome said:
I've tried to show what I meant by diagonal parallels or not (look at the red lines I've added):

e8cebd8e.gif


c4592419.png


27b4bd40.png


6db8c643.jpg


The back end also looks sprung out and the hind legs are not under the body when the horse is not working correctly but rider pulling on the bit instead.
Click to expand...

Tbh I think a horses can go like that with out ever having been put into rolkur.
 
Goldenstar said:
Tbh I think a horses can go like that with out ever having been put into rolkur.
Click to expand...

Yes, but I think a horse trained with rollkur will not go like the first and 3rd pictures because they won't collect properly, whatever the level they are at. However, they might be other reasons they go like 2nd and 4th pictures.
 
Ah thanks Goldenstar. Apologies Palindrome, I didn't read your post carefully enough!


For what it's worth I also doubt whether rollkur is necessarily linked to horses lacking engagement or that it is the sole training method that may lead to this problem.
 
one of the effects of rollkur is the over-exaggerated lift of the front legs beyond the angle to which the hind legs can lift, so Palindrome is correct.

OP, your comment "also is it rollkur when someone puts side reins on their horse in the stable because it rears when someone takes hold of the reins??" actually makes me want to weep.
TS is right, that is idiocy and quite likely cruelty.
So, the horse is rearing when someone takes hold of the reins.
WHY?
WHY is it rearing? Probably because it is anticipating pain - in the mouth, poll, neck, back, who knows. Fear. It's the response of a prey animal which wants to run but can't, so it goes up.
How the holy **** is tying its head down with side reins IN THE STABLE fgs (so, not even in motion) supposed to help remedy this situation?!?!?!?!
Please, if you know anyone who does this, steer very well clear. Seriously. They are NOT a horseman or horsewoman. That is cruelty. Also, if the side reins are tight enough to put the horse into rollkur position, that horse just might EXPLODE when someone takes the reins off and releases it from pain. (just imagine what being forced to stay in a similar position would do to your muscles etc).
This makes me so angry. What the hell is wrong with people? Gggrrrr.
 
kerilli said:
OP, your comment "also is it rollkur when someone puts side reins on their horse in the stable because it rears when someone takes hold of the reins??" actually makes me want to weep.
TS is right, that is idiocy and quite likely cruelty.
So, the horse is rearing when someone takes hold .
Click to expand...

Briefly we were on a yard where common practice was to leave horse stood in all day and then bring it out and stand it outside its stable with its head tied in with side reins in an 'outline'.

Why?

To build its muscle and teach it to hold its self.

It'd stand like that for HOURS. Poor thing.

We moved. sharpish.
 
HayleyUK said:
Briefly we were on a yard where common practice was to leave horse stood in all day and then bring it out and stand it outside its stable with its head tied in with side reins in an 'outline'.

Why?

To build its muscle and teach it to hold its self.

It'd stand like that for HOURS. Poor thing.

We moved. sharpish.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of showing yards that use this ridiculous method, especially with in-hand youngsters and show ponies.

For me Rollkur is the the rider placing the horse's head and neck into an extremely overbent position and then using the spur to produce extreme submission and "expression".

I have no problem with horses being ridden low, deep or round but hate it when riders use the spur for "expression" when a horse is in a very submissive/tight head/neck position. It seems to me to be bullying and threatening rather than training.
 
Quite a good article on the history of the debate:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/rollkur-wars

Tying horses heads up/down/in/around, using leverage, pressure, and fixed points has and is a part of all sorts of "schools of thought". The gist of it is, it makes the horse submit by using it's own strength against it. Charming. But there are actually all sorts of "devices" along this spectrum (anything that provides leverage, for example), including a few that are currently popular and seen to be beneficial and completely without risk (everything in life has risks and rewards . .) and many people argue they are just going to the logical extreme while others maintain that ANY use of force is unethical. Where you come down on it depends a lot on the "culture" you've been brought up in, personal experience, and natural inclination. There has actually been very little "science" done (and, since there's little money in it, there isn't likely to be a lot more) about the effects of these various methods and, because of the huge numbers of variables involved in keeping and training horses, anecdotal evidence is not worth much.

Personally, I don't do things like that because to me, it seems wrong. But I understand how people reason it . . I just don't agree.
 
Bearskin said:
There are plenty of showing yards that use this ridiculous method, especially with in-hand youngsters and show ponies.

I too have been to a relatively well known eventer's yard where lots of the horses had their heads strapped down in side reins for hours. Never even hid the practice. Sadly when I looked up said eventers record, this method was producing top 5 dressage tests on most of x's horses, so why change!:mad:
Click to expand...
 
:(

ive nothing aginst riding low and round, provided the contact is light and the horse ridden forward, over the back and down in to the hand, but those pics of patrick kittel are
just yuk.

moment in time maybe but god the backwards pressure....................and no hind joint flexion at all.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
:(

ive nothing aginst riding low and round, provided the contact is light and the horse ridden forward, over the back and down in to the hand, but those pics of patrick kittel are
just yuk.

moment in time maybe but god the backwards pressure....................and no hind joint flexion at all.
Click to expand...

Agree...makes me feel physically sick :(
 
its vile. and i noticed the 1st kiwi rider to go yesterday had been doing this. her horse had the "broken " neckline and was sooooo tight in the neck it looked awful. and her back legs were trailing.... im glad to see she was marked down for it. ( is that the link above, i havent looked..)
one of the hunters i looked after last yr had been a belgian showjumper in a former life and had been rollkured its sooo hard to rectify. no surprise he had back/pelvis issues and mental issues as well!
"tug of war" is a very good book on the subject. i really hope the judges start cracking down on this. in all disciplines. being cruel to these animals is NOT the idea!!!!!:(

they all need to take a look at carl hesters scores yest and take a leaf from his book in my opinion!!!!!!!!
 
Sorry I can't get my head around this, so is rollkur the way to describe how they are tied down in the stable for hours? Or the way they are ridden with heads on their chests?
 
sare_bear said:
I too have been to a relatively well known eventer's yard where lots of the horses had their heads strapped down in side reins for hours. Never even hid the practice. Sadly when I looked up said eventers record, this method was producing top 5 dressage tests on most of x's horses, so why change!:mad:
Click to expand...

My previous (note the word previous ;)) instructor told me to do this with my horse (who I had bought fron her less than 6 months previously). She is a VERY well known event rider and horse producer. Thank God I had the sense not to take her advice :eek:. It turned out the horse's suspensories were damaged beyond repair, and he had a alot of back issues. He was a saint not to put me on the floor considering the pain he must have been in :(. Less than a year after buying him he is now retired :(.
 
Palindrome said:
I've tried to show what I meant by diagonal parallels or not (look at the red lines I've added):

e8cebd8e.gif


c4592419.png


27b4bd40.png


6db8c643.jpg


The back end also looks sprung out and the hind legs are not under the body when the horse is not working correctly but rider pulling on the bit instead.
Click to expand...

Right exactly what I said in the thread in NL, this diagram shows no horses in Rollkur, please people when passing info on to people (and I believe in this cause) be careful what info you are passing on! I know what you are trying to say/prove Palindrome but diagrams like this are misleading to those that dont understand what rollkur is and are trying to .
 
Vizslak said:
Right exactly what I said in the thread in NL, this diagram shows no horses in Rollkur, please people when passing info on to people (and I believe in this cause) be careful what info you are passing on!
Click to expand...

Please, take some time to read the thread before you criticize. This does not show horses in rollkur, it shows what the result of rollkur training/riding from front to back (as opposed to from behind) is in picture 2 and 4, correct riding in pictures 1 and 3. You can look at page 59 and 81 of the book Tug of war by Dr. Gerd Heuschmann for more explanations.
I put that as the OP asked if there was a way to tell if the horse had been trained with rollkur.
 
Last edited:
I understood (as I said underneath) what you were saying, I am just very concerned that currently, this Rollkur thing/debate is going postal and thats great but there is already a lot of confusing info for people on the subject, for instance I tried to find a video to post on a page earlier that clearly shows Rollkur and the biomechanics, I gave up after half an hour of searching because I couldnt find anything that wasnt at least in part sensationlist and inaccurate. To me picture one is not a correct shape and I wouldnt want people to think that a horse not riding in that shape is subject to Rollkur
 
I'm with Vizzy on this, the amount of sensationalist (and at times, completely incorrect) information that is being posted around out there on the world wide web at the moment regarding rollkur/LDR is crazy.
 
For what it's worth I don't think those who practice rollkur would accept the description of their horses being ridden from the front rather than the back. For example, Anky at the BD convention a few years back made a big point of explaining how the horses must be active from behind, the horse she rode in rollkur was very active behind and the pupils she taught (not in rollkur) were all encouraged to activate their horses a lot more. In fact, two of the points she lingered on the most, i.e. a lot of transitions and giving and retaking the inside rein, have since made their way into more BD tests.
 
Vizslak said:
To me picture one is not a correct shape and I wouldnt want people to think that a horse not riding in that shape is subject to Rollkur
Click to expand...

I am curious about why you think picture 1 is not a correct shape. Could you explain why?
I have never said that horse not riding in that shape are subject to rollkur, I have said that horse trained with rollkur MIGHT look like 2 and 4.

Booboos, any horse that has his butt sticking out in the air and paddling out with his hind legs is ridden from front to back IMO. But then it's only my opinion (although it seems to be the same as Dr. Gerd Heuschmann from what I understand). Again just my opinion but it's the rider's responsability to teach the horse to get the hind legs below the body and balance himself and not sacrifice collection for flashy leg throwings which possibly result in sore backs.

Edited to add: also meant to say Booboos that I love the second picture in your signature, to me it looks much more correct than lots of olympics riders I have seen.
 
Last edited:
Palindrome: many thanks, that is very kind of you. Not to be ungrateful though but this is a photo of my horse working at Elementary level. I don't think he could perform any of the GP movements (or even PSG movements for that matter) in that outline. I would characterise this photo and your illustration 1 as a horse in a correct but novice outline.

Coincidentally the grey in my signature has never been ridden in rollkur but his big problem is trailing his hinds. I think this is because of his confirmation (long back) and the crappiness of his rider (yours truly) in failing to teach him better how to collect.

By contrast I would say that Painted Black for example yesterday was very engaged in his hind leg and didn't in any way look hindered in his way of going by his rollkur training.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top