rounder outline - can my instructor be wrong?

E

eva

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 July 2010
Messages
649
Location
London
Visit site
Hi all,

My instructor always tells me to keep my hands low and wide to encourage my 5yo horse to go rounder, but it wasn't helping at all, so I tried keeping them in a normal bellybutton-high position and my horse almost instantly went much rounder! properly round in fact! Why could that happen, does anyone have an idea? Should I sack my instructor? ;)

thanks everyone :) you're a bunch of stars, as always!
 
a longer and lower outline encourages your horse to take the contact forward, down and out - which is what you want a baby horse to do. could it be that when you take the contact up your horse is overbending?
 
He's in an eggbutt mullen mouth, we've tried lots of bits for him and this one is the ONLY one which he offers good contact in. When I keep my hands low and wide he keeps his head rather high! I tried riding him like that for a couple of weeks now and it's not working at all :\ Could it be that he's Andalucian? In the pictures and vids that I saw of him being ridden before people were holding their hands relatively high.
 
digitalangel, I have a good consistent contact with him, but he would carry his neck rounder only if I lift my hands - does that make any sense? sorry if I'm confusing.
 
There are lots of different views on how to work a horse correctly, and different things work for different horses. A good instructor will have lots of different techniques up their sleeve, and will use a combination of experience and trial and error to find what works for you and your horse. Maybe discuss what you have found at your next lesson, and see how she reacts.

I'm not a fan of the hands low and wide approach. It means that 1. You are compromising your position, which is counterproductive really. And 2. It puts the focus on achieving an outline on the hands, head and neck, when a true outline begins with the hindlegs engaging and the back lifting. But like I said, different things work for different combinations.
 
No worries. I think it's more a matter of opinion, and what works for you, than your instructor being wrong. If at your next lesson you say to your instructor 'I tried this and it worked really well for me', and he is happy to go with it and take cues from the horse, then you'll know you've got a good'un. Hope that makes sense, seem to be tripping over my tongu tonight :D
 
i always warm my horse up using long and low - like the OP my horse at first would only take a contact with a unjointed bit, but then he started leaning. He is now in a happy mouth french link. I warm him up long and low and hes not really in an outline, the point is to get him taking the contact forwards down and out, ie not in an outline. then my horse accepts a contact, and i can bring him up into a higher frame.

sorry if this doesnt make sense.
 
Okay, to clarify, cos I'm clearly not making sense this eve as I said earlier...I'm not saying that working the horse long and low is bad, it's a really good thing and I nearly always warm up this way. However, the riders hands being wide and low is not necessarily the way to get the horse to round.
 
Thanks Steorra and digitalangel, I think I get you - I think by default the warmup has to be with a good long contact to warm everything up nicely :) it's rather the "real" riding I'm talking about :) oh gosh I wonder if I make sense at all!
 
Steorra said:
I'm not a fan of the hands low and wide approach. It means that 1. You are compromising your position, which is counterproductive really. And 2. It puts the focus on achieving an outline on the hands, head and neck, when a true outline begins with the hindlegs engaging and the back lifting. But like I said, different things work for different combinations.
Click to expand...

Ditto, ditto, ditto! And especially with regard to point 2.

Carrying the bands low and wide CAN encourage some horses to come into 'an outline' - from the shoulder forward!! It can also encourage a horse to over-bend and come behind the bit! And some horses just don't like it!

As Steorra says - a true outline begins with the hindlegs engaging and the back lifting. It DOESN'T rely on the hands.

A little picture to illustrate the point!

Thornton-b.jpg


The horse is a 4 year old who has been backed 10 months - and has only been 'schooling' for the last 4 months. His 'outline' comes from behind - so when the reins are literally THROWN at him - he stays in the outline - and doesn't speed up!
 
Sorry to hijack the thread, but I have been reschooling my horse (he knew NOTHING apart from jumping when I bought him), and though he had issues with his back due to an ill fitting saddle and teeth they have since been resolved. I have stuck with the idea of getting him working from behind and not worrying too much about where his head is, have taught him lateral work but his head is still in the air. He can bring it down to an 'outline' but he really struggles and if you dropped the rein contact his nose would drift skyward, unlike the lovely horse in JanetGeorge's picture! His topline is vastly improved, but I believe his unwillingness to soften is from his tension and general stressiness - does anyone have any tips for me? He is fairly bright and picks things up quickly, apart from learning to soften. I do have regular lessons with a good instructor, but it is still a real struggle :(
 
fadedv said:
I have stuck with the idea of getting him working from behind and not worrying too much about where his head is, have taught him lateral work but his head is still in the air. He can bring it down to an 'outline' but he really struggles and if you dropped the rein contact his nose would drift skyward, unlike the lovely horse in JanetGeorge's picture! His topline is vastly improved, but I believe his unwillingness to soften is from his tension and general stressiness - does anyone have any tips for me?
Click to expand...

You are absolutely RIGHT to work on getting him going forward from behind - and leaving his head alone. BUT - how long have you been working at it for?

A horse needs time - as well as correct work - to develop self carriage.

Thornton looked like this in March this year - when just backed.

Thornton-1.jpg


Thornton-2.jpg


He then did virtually nothing except quiet hacking for 2 months, before coming back into the school to start to learn to work!

It's taken 5 months of quiet, consistent work to get him to the point where this is his natural outline.
Thornton-a.jpg


The first thing is to get rid of the tension and stressiness - easier said than done - but you WON'T do it by asking him to work in an outline. OR with lateral work - he's not ready and he's probably confused. KEEP leaving his head alone - just a light contact and let his head go where it will. Work mainly in walk and trot for now - with careful and frequent transitions. Talk to him a lot, pat him and praise him when he relaxes and gives you just a hint of what you want.

Always be alert and ready to ALLOW him to take more rein and stretch down; work him quietly on a big circle and regularly offer one rein - to encourage him to stretch. It will come - but if he's been spoilt (by jumping - and no doubt being pulled around BEFORE he had the balance and self-carriage to cope) it WILL take months! It's FAR easier to get a baby going right - than to correct an older horse who hasn't learned to trust the bit and his rider's hands.
 
Thanks JanetGeorge, it's nice to know I'm on the right track with him and that time (we have only really been cracking on with the schooling for the past few month due to an injury of mine) and more consistent work will hopefully help him. That is broadly what we do in our schooling sessions anyway, so I will contine with that, though with renewed enthusiasm! :)

You are spot on with your guess about the jumping - he is talented, but uneducated even there and it is clear that no systematic approach has been taken with his training at any point.

Re the lateral work - we only do it in walk and mainly leg yield as my instructor recommended it to help him to stretch and regain some flexibility as he was in a real state when I got him from years of really bad saddles and terrible teeth. I do find it helps, as he is definitely more supple :(
 
To the OP, if he came from Spain they often do have a very different way of training and therefore he may have to unlearn a few things before he can start and learn your methods. He may only be young but they have often been worked quite intensely over there early on.

Also (I too have a PRE) you have to remember that physically they mature far later than other breeds. My boy is now rising 7 and his body has gone through a lot of natural growth and development since I had him as a 4.5 year old, including grwoing a good inch in height. Only in the last 6 months or so has he really had the physical strength and balance to attempt more concentrated work. I did very little schooling in a manege and lots and lots of hacking before seriously getting down to lateral work and the like.

Finally, they are built very differently to say warmbloods, and they do find long and low type work difficult. Later on, when you're working on collection, he'll take to it like a duck to water, but the kind of thing that you're doing right now is something that most of them struggle with I've found/heard.

I really think - maybe more than many other breeds - Iberians need a lot of time and patience to develop and will take longer to get to certain points in training than other breeds do. The rewards are huge though!
 
My instructor uses the same teaching methods as yours from the sound of it. To begin with I offer my hands forwards and my hands are lower and wider until the horse takes the bridle and is working over his back. Then when warmed up I move to working more correctly with hands in the correct position. I don't believe working like this puts the focus on the outline coming from the hands - quite the opposite in fact - I'm told not to do anything other than offer hands forward.

My horse has now learnt that when my hands are low and wide I am asking him to stretch down into the contact, and when I pick my hands up I am asking him to lift his frame and work in a more correct outline.

There are lots of different styles of teaching and different methods of getting horses working correctly. If you like your instructor and get on well it might be worth just having a go at what they suggest and if it doesn't work for you find a new instructor.
 
i have an tres songrs stallion, andalusian anglo'arab, he looks a very different horse at 9 years to 6 years, he seems to have a different point of balance to my other horses, when first broken he would offer lengthened strides and was quiet and attentive, this year for the first time i have been able to school him, and find that any attempt to put him on the bit from the front end does'nt work, so i have ridden him on a gentle longish contact with my hands in the normal place, but the crucial thing seems to be not to rush in any way, go forward yes, it takes about 25 minutes, having got a steady rhythm, and having done shoulder in renvers and half pass in walk, that he starts to lower his head, having lost his tension, reaches slightly forward raises his shoulders and back and lengthens his strides, i don't actually do anything much, it seems to be about queitness, time, relaxation, any tension or anxiety to reach this point is counterproductive, he comes really round and soft in shoulder in, i am on the lightest of contacts, when i ask for lengthened strides on the long side of the school he takes off and surges forward like its letting out the energy his whole form lifts and his neck lengthens with his strides, the gentle contact is still there, he will stop from my seat
i do also think it is most important to ensure that the horse is straight, and moves so it is pushing off equally with both hind legs, to get equal impulsion, this can take some time to achieve, it is my first priority, you can tell if your horse is going towards straightness by his ability to curve or work equally well on both reins, i think if you make it easy for horse by using gentleness patience and intelligent thinking he will meet you half way, if its a bad hair day do something other than schooling avoid battles and tension at all costs, after all i am trying to mobilise every part of my horse's body aand tension is the enemy
 
Tristar - I found that a fascinating read. That describes my horse and how I have to work my horse to the tee - and it's actually reassuring to hear of someone out there who has to take a similar approach.

The first RI I worked with (BHS II - so well qualified), I had to call a day to because she simply wouldn't give my horse the time he needed to develop this way. If he wasn't round and soft within ten minutes, he was being naughty, needed to grow up, I had to be firmer - etc etc. I'm not saying to the OP that her RI is of the same mould, I'm sure they work well together, but I do think that some breeds require a bit of a different approach and a different mentality.
 
wow, tristar and showqa - so much useful info! I am so happy to read that! thank you so much! Indeed, I believe we are a bit rushed by certain people... Will give my boy more time then :) it's just really sad at time to think that all this hard work and you're getting nowhere much... it's comforting to know you might get somewhere in the end :)
how long does/did your working session last for with your Spanish horses? I was told that they can easily become dominant, and I should presevere with what I do and don't get them thinking that they might get away with anything. What's your opinion on this?
 
I'm not sure that I'd say they're dominant. They're hot bloods, so like TB's and Arabs they can be a bit spirited. What I would say is that they are extremely intelligent (I say that as an owner of a TB too), and so they get bored fast and frustrated if you keep going over the same old exercise. Hence, I have a rule whereby I won't repeat an exercise more than three times before moving onto something else - I have to keep the work fresh. I keep our schooling sessions short and sweet - no longer than 25 minutes (unless it's a lesson), and I've been known to quit after 15 minutes if he's given me some lovely work. I do a lot of schooling out hacking, when it's just that little bit less intense and he's far more relaxed.

It was literally this summer when he felt physically and mentally ready for serious schooling. Up until then he simply wasn't ready for it - and that was that! I'd been through a few RI's who had said over two years I've had him "If he was a warmblood, by now he'd be doing this, or that or the other" to which I'd say "He's not a warmblood, so get used to it". Finally, I found an RI who was really sensitive to him and was totally sympathetic to him needing more time to mature - and it's worked. So 5 is young with any horse - with these horses he really is still in his nappy!!!!

A word of warning with the long and low exercises. I've been told by PRE experts (far better qualified than I), that over-doing this kind of work with these horses can make them heavy on the forehand because of how they're built. So just keep that in mind.
 
showqa, thanks again! what do you do with your horse? we're doing dressage, now at Prelim level scoring 59-61%, he seems to enjoy his work more than hacking, at least in the winter - he's just terrified of puddles you see :) we work an hour 6 days a week, do you think it might be too much?
 
Yeah - we're doing dressage too, although we're only at prelim!!! Only just started, but he's holding his own.

Hey - you know your horse better than anyone, so if you think he's happy with his work and coping well then why mend what ain't broke!

My horse wouldn't cope with that - it would blow his brains - but with the breed/any breed again, they're all individuals aren't they?

Just don't let RI's, fellow competitors, the system feel that you have to rush - you don't - it takes as long as it takes for the right development. That's the most important lesson that I've learnt.

Funnily enough, I went to see Carl Hester a couple of weeks ago at a demo he was doing and he too was saying that he had a couple of horses that he had to accept were not ready. One of them was 8 before he started doing anything to speak of - this was music to my ears!!!!1
 
Cool :) I guess the trickiest bit is to recognize when they're being naughty/lazy or just not ready for something! Although I sort of feel my horse is not the naughty/lazy sort but I wouldn't want to give him a chance to become one if you know what I mean :/
mine was super to hack in the summer but now it's his first proper winter in UK after Spain, he's just a tad nervous with it! what do you feed yours?
 
Well I have him on a very simple diet of speedi-beet and Baileys Lo - Cal and a scoop of happy hoof. He has biotin and magnesium (my grazing is defficient in mg). Lots of good hay (tried him with haylage - blew his brains), and he's still out on the grass. He's a very good doer and survives on fresh air really, so have to be careful when the grass is at its' best.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top