"Roundness" & Being "On the bit"

[Crackajack]

Hey guys...

I'm sure you have all at some point discussed this and had various debates but thought i would ask your opinions as we have had a bit of an arguement on our yard about it...
So....the question being....
How did you/would you get your horse/pony to start going onto the bit and creating that round shape from the back?

I know how i do it...how did/do you?
Once i get a couple of replies ill explain how all 12 people are arguing that IM wrong...wait till you hear what they said

 

[Munchkin]

By teaching it rhythm and balance, by gradually encouraging the hocks under and the weight be carried behind, by teaching the horse to stretch and strengthen its back to build topline muscle and enable it to carry the rider correctly, by using all of this work to gradually shorten the frame and lighten the forehand.

As a result of all of the above, the horse will achieve a balanced, consistent contact and make a round shape with his neck and over its back.

I'm not sure there are many people left in this country who understand that the "outline" is a RESULT OF THE HORSE WORKING CORRECTLY and that its head being in what they imagine to be the right place does NOT mean that your horse is working properly, nor that you can ride.

 

[Nocturnal]

Ooh, this should be interesting!

I started off by making sure I worked the horse in a steady rhythm. This lead to relaxation, at which point I started asking the horse to step under with his hind legs. Lots of circles, loops, serpentines, changing direction and making sure he bends properly. Transitions. Half halts.

I've had a lot of people tell me to keep the bit moving, but I don't see how a horse can work into a contact properly when the bit is always moving. I've found that after doing the above for a certain length of time (different for each horse ), the horse starts to round up. I pretty much ignore the front end until the back end is working properly.

I'm not completely there yet, and sometimes I get lax, but we're getting there. Interested to hear whether or not I'm going about it the right way!

 

[Munchkin]

I would say so, ballyboo

I've had a lot of people tell me to keep the bit moving, but I don't see how a horse can work into a contact properly when the bit is always moving.

Common sense is severely underrated when it comes to riding, isn't it?

 

[Quadro]

I think the simplest thing that people do not understand is that to get a horse in an outline the horse MUST be going forward!!!!!!

 

[siennamum]

Completely agree with the above. I don't think you really get to a point where you ask the horse to go on the bit, unless it has a conformation issue which makes it hard.
My current youngster couldn't go in a correct frame if he tried, he is still so downhill. Instead we just work on rhythm & forwardness (both of which are far from acheived) and let the rest come with time.
He is incredibly active behind, but very stuffy in front. Pulling his head in or fiddling with the front end at all would make his action in front even worse.
My older mare you have to half halt every now and then to get her attention and get her from inside leg to outside hand, which has the effect of getting her 'on the bit', but that really only happens when she has dropped off the leg.

 

[Kat]

How you get there depends upon the horse and its own way of going. BUT your horse is not in an outline just because its head is tucked in, it is crucial for the horse to be engages behind and working through. Using the quarters is more important than where the head is. A true outline will not come until the horse is coming through from behind.

 

[wench]

I started off by making sure I worked the horse in a steady rhythm. This lead to relaxation, at which point I started asking the horse to step under with his hind legs. Lots of circles, loops, serpentines, changing direction and making sure he bends properly. Transitions. Half halts.

QUOTE]

I tried this with my tb - none of it worked. Probably as he is a lazy sod and getting himself to use himself properly is an absolute nightmare.

Went to an instructor who gave me a couple of exercises to do - hey presto one horse who goes into an outline, holds himself there, and uses himself properly!

 

[Nocturnal]

Common sense is severely underrated when it comes to riding, isn't it?

You're not wrong there! Unfortunately, I think a lot of people are only interested in quick fixes.

I think the simplest thing that people do not understand is that to get a horse in an outline the horse MUST be going forward!!!!!!

Yes, this too. I'm lucky enough to have a naturally forward-thinking horse, but for those that don't, this it the first thing that needs addressing.

 

[Munchkin]

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people are only interested in quick fixes.

The worrying part is that this extends to instructors, and to the people who teach the instructors. I honestly cannot think of more than one BHS qualified instructor (and the one I can think of is a FBHS) who I'd let loose with my horses. I also know many who believe that, because they are qualified and good at the quick fixes, they have nothing left to learn.

If there are so few good instructors left, who is teaching people to ride properly?

 

[china]

its much easier to do with a 'blank canvess' horse than one thats had its back teeth taken out and now has a mouth hard as rock, i would get a horse working nice and forward, engaged from behind and taking the contact long and low, to do this i would probably squeeze the rein like a soft sponge and release and 9 times out of 10 they drop down into the contact, do this in walk and trot and then back to walk try and take a higher contact and establish this in walk first when they are fine in walk, establish it in transitions walk to trot and trot to walk before getting it continious in trot, if a horse knows how to take the contact, i ride with a light soft hand and if they are well schooled they should take the contact, if they lean on it i take a squeeze of the rein untill they come soft and when they do i go back to a light soft contact that doesnt interfere. i cringe when i see people contanstantly swinging on the reins on their horses mouth even when they are on the contact, must get rather irritating having a peice of metal sliding side to side in your mouth constantly!

 

[stencilface]

TBH, I'm not sure if I really know the proper answer. I need my horse to go forwards, he is quite lazy, but he tends to run with his front feet, and go upside down.

To help this, I do transitions, and try to do shoulder in and other exercises to get his inside hind leg underneath him. And do rein back, shoulder-in and leg yield to canter exercises. I don't school that often in an arena (don't have one!) and due to money/time don't have that many lessons (max 6 a year?!)

In the last year I have found 2 instructors who in my mind, both teach properly. But that is after 15 + years of PC and other instruction which was completely backwards. All the PC instructors I ever had, used to get to you to kick and saw on the mouth (ok, so a bit more subtle than that, but that was the idea!).

With the 2 new instructors I found, and a lesson on a schoolmaster I had whilst on holoday in portugal and I finally feel like I'm starting to get the picture....

 

[Nocturnal]

The worrying part is that this extends to instructors, and to the people who teach the instructors. I honestly cannot think of more than one BHS qualified instructor (and the one I can think of is a FBHS) who I'd let loose with my horses. I also know many who believe that, because they are qualified and good at the quick fixes, they have nothing left to learn.

If there are so few good instructors left, who is teaching people to ride properly?

Yep, I agree with that 100% . I think it's important these days to read widely. You'll get a lot of conflicting info, but you'll also discover common themes of what is 'correct' and what is not. That will allow people to take the good parts of an instructor's teaching (which most have) and discard the bad (again, which most have). It's so easy, though, for people to hop on a horse and just assume that what they're being told is correct. And so difficult for inexperienced people to know what's bad, and I guess people are reluctant to assume they know better than someone who's clearly more experienced than they are. But the way I think about it is, I know what I want for my horse, and anything that's unsympathetic or inappropriately forceful (if he's messing around he'll get told off! ) can go in the trash.

I tried this with my tb - none of it worked. Probably as he is a lazy sod and getting himself to use himself properly is an absolute nightmare.

Went to an instructor who gave me a couple of exercises to do - hey presto one horse who goes into an outline, holds himself there, and uses himself properly!

Wench, I'd be really interested in hearing about those exercises! As I said, I'm not quite there yet with my TB, so anything to help...

 

[Crackajack]

Ok.....i love the way everybody jumped on this and thank god you all pretty much said the same thing as me!
Now for what they suggest...
The situation started when i was being "secretly" watched schooling my horse - they started to do the whole clicky clicky livery thing and started to critise my riding ability and the way i was schooling...
CJ has through no fault of his own lost some of his condition and topline due to my laziness....so i had taken it back to basics and had been ignoring his head as i just want to get his rhythm, balance and accuracy
Instead they started getting people round to watch and proceed to tell me to how to school my horse and how wrong i was doing everything...
Same kind of principle from what i have seen on here before..
According to these people i need to do the following;
1. Use a training aid every time i ride whether this is out on the road, field or in the school - they suggested a bungee
2. keep outside hand on the nummah
3. "play" with mouth/bit/reins
4. Everytime he brings his head up stops what i am doing and only allow him to continue with his head down
5. If he locks from the poll (Which he does do) then i am to hold the rein back by my hip until he unlocks - continuing with whatever exercise i was doing

I can't believe the way they have been...
I bring him back into work with hands kept in correct position and concentrate on his impulsion, rhythm etc
Then i introduce poles - on a circle, center line - anywhere really and use these to start asking him to pick up
Bungee attached lightly to encourage forward and down motion
Lots of transitions, changes of direction etc keep him thinking forward....
Once i feel i have got his attention (this is easily felt - he comes off the bit goes light and feels like a little grand prix horse lol) i then continue with taking his schooling further with lessons from my instructor...(Dont start off by bringing him into work by having lessons - costs too much!)

 

[Crackajack]

Wench, I'd be really interested in hearing about those exercises! As I said, I'm not quite there yet with my TB, so anything to help...

Me too - any tips always help!

 

[Natpillai]

Totally agree with all the above so all is not lost, obviously there are still people out there who know how to ride and are focussed on the long-term welfare and comfort of their horses. Hoorah!!

In terms of how I go about it, a lot is about strength and balance right across the back. My horse had a VERY sore, cut mouth when I got him so spent 6 months in a hackamore. He used to run off and panic at the slightest contact, with upside-down giraffe neck and ski-jump bum. So spent a long time getting him to relax and begun by asking him quietly, with parted hands, to stretch long and low. His trot is HUGE but he lacked the strength across his body to balance and contain it so ended up running forwards - a balanced 'long and low' took a lot of time to develop because his back end would send his front end into overdrive trying to keep up!! Didn't do any canter-work at all as I'm a firm believer in the fact that if you build up the strength in walk and trot first the canter is then easier.

So lots of long and low led to much stronger back and allowed him to engage behind with the support of my leg. Although the trot is huge his back end was still a mile out behind him when he came so it took a lot of work to get him to bring it underneath (plus I had to get a feel for when he was really working since he's so elevated he could fool me into thinking he was working!

Anyway, as he got stronger I started to ask him to sit up and carry himself more 'up in front' (I'm lucky that he's naturally very uphill) by shortening (but not hardening) the contact and using my leg to ask him to push from behind and carry himself. Took a long long time as there was a lot of 'wrong' muscle that had to be got rid of, followed by building correct muscle which wasn't helped by the fact that he's stressy and didn't keep weight on easily!! But we're getting there and started canter work about 6 months ago (I have cantered in between, of course, but now he's strong enough we're getting more serious!). But in answer to the original question (sorry for the life story, can you tell I'm trying to avoid work!!?) I did all of the above and did lots of lateral work, transitions (making sure the transitions are always correct, not a 'jump' into trot etc.), and also lots of pole work to keep the interest and encourage the steady rhythm.

 

[wench]

Wench, I'd be really interested in hearing about those exercises! As I said, I'm not quite there yet with my TB, so anything to help...

Dead easy... trot horse round on a small circle. Short reins. Keep outside hand very still (I was told to hold saddlecloth to help, but this left me with reins to long). Open inside rein and tweak/half halt type asking for the inside bend. Horse should eventually drop his head down, and come underneath himself.

If he speeds up, slow him down, this is an evasion. If he doesnt give any bend/not much bend open hand wider and ask harder. When he drops his head, you can then do bigger circles, or around the arena.

This worked wonderfully with Henry, who as described above is lazy and will claw along with his front legs to avoid doing "proper" work. However, it did nothing for Trigger, so use it at your own descretion!

 

[Kat]

Ok.....i love the way everybody jumped on this and thank god you all pretty much said the same thing as me!
Now for what they suggest...
The situation started when i was being "secretly" watched schooling my horse - they started to do the whole clicky clicky livery thing and started to critise my riding ability and the way i was schooling...
CJ has through no fault of his own lost some of his condition and topline due to my laziness....so i had taken it back to basics and had been ignoring his head as i just want to get his rhythm, balance and accuracy
Instead they started getting people round to watch and proceed to tell me to how to school my horse and how wrong i was doing everything...
Same kind of principle from what i have seen on here before..
According to these people i need to do the following;
1. Use a training aid every time i ride whether this is out on the road, field or in the school - they suggested a bungee
2. keep outside hand on the nummah
3. "play" with mouth/bit/reins
4. Everytime he brings his head up stops what i am doing and only allow him to continue with his head down
5. If he locks from the poll (Which he does do) then i am to hold the rein back by my hip until he unlocks - continuing with whatever exercise i was doing

I can't believe the way they have been...
I bring him back into work with hands kept in correct position and concentrate on his impulsion, rhythm etc
Then i introduce poles - on a circle, center line - anywhere really and use these to start asking him to pick up
Bungee attached lightly to encourage forward and down motion
Lots of transitions, changes of direction etc keep him thinking forward....
Once i feel i have got his attention (this is easily felt - he comes off the bit goes light and feels like a little grand prix horse lol) i then continue with taking his schooling further with lessons from my instructor...(Dont start off by bringing him into work by having lessons - costs too much!)

You see I don't think the advice you are being given is as far from the mark as your original post suggested. I was expecting that you were going to say draw reins or hauling his head in by force!

It all depends upon the level of the horses schooling and his fitness.

What you are doing isn't wrong and for a horse without the training or fitness it is fine, but maybe you are taking things a little too slowly and he is starting to take the mick and that is why these people are suggesting a slightly firmer approach?

I don't like point 1 or 4 much but the others have their place. Putting your hand on the numnah is about giving a consistent outside hand for your horse to work in to, in a low position which encourages a good head position, this is useful for some people.

Opening your hand to the hip can help if the horse fixes/locks.

Playing the rein, squeezing your fingers, not sawing helps encourage the horse to soften.

So I don't think they are completely wrong, but I think their approach is perhaps more suited to a horse that can do it but chooses not to rather than a horse who doesn't understand a contact.

Admittedly none of what they suggest will work if the horse isn't working through actively from behind, but I can quite imagine them getting this sort of advice from their own instructors.

 

[Munchkin]

Dead easy... trot horse round on a small circle. Short reins. Keep outside hand very still (I was told to hold saddlecloth to help, but this left me with reins to long). Open inside rein and tweak/half halt type asking for the inside bend. Horse should eventually drop his head down, and come underneath himself.

If he speeds up, slow him down, this is an evasion. If he doesnt give any bend/not much bend open hand wider and ask harder. When he drops his head, you can then do bigger circles, or around the arena.

This worked wonderfully with Henry, who as described above is lazy and will claw along with his front legs to avoid doing "proper" work. However, it did nothing for Trigger, so use it at your own descretion!

At the risk of being shot down, the above to me is another quick fix.

When you get on a horse that has been taught to carry itself correctly, it'll seek the contact by stretching down and forward into it. It should feel as though everything is "hanging" off the spine.

If at any time you feel the need to do anything to bring your horses head down, it's because something's not happening at the back end, or over the back, and the horse feels the need to lift its head to balance itself and to carry you comfortably.

A good exercise for young, tense or badly schooled horses is to ask them to walk in a straight line. As you walk, ask for a small amount of flexion to one side (but keep them straight with your seat and leg - the most important part). When they give to the pressure, ride straight. (It's important not to throw the rein back at them, but to gently allow them to take it back. Repeat to the other side, release and ride straight. This teaches the horse that their body is independent of their head and neck, and that pressure should be yielded to, not faught against. It's also a good stretching exercise, as the horse will learn very quickly to follow your hand around to the side using your leg, not the rein contact, as support, thus creating a small degree of self carriage. This isn't about their head being down, it's about them learning to seek, accept and respect the contact, and to stay between hand and leg. As the horse becomes more balanced, supple and less reliant on the rider, you may increase the amount of flexion you ask for and even move the exercise into trot and canter and onto circles.

 

[wench]

At the risk of being shot down, the above to me is another quick fix.

Well the exercise came from a very good instructor. Secondly, the difference in my horse after using was a miracle. He really started using himself and the change in his trot was amazing. You could really feel the difference between his usual clawing along, and new wonderful improved self-propelled trot.

 

[Munchkin]

Just my opinion based on what you've written. I have never seen your horse. I'm glad he feels better for you, though.

Please read what I said above regarding instructors!

 

[Munchkin]

Putting your hand on the numnah is about giving a consistent outside hand for your horse to work in to, in a low position which encourages a good head position, this is useful for some people.

This actually causes you to encourage your horse onto the forehand. A consistent contact is one that maintains an elastic feel with the horses mouth as he or she moves. For this, a bent, relaxed elbow is very important. Fixing your arm down is purely asserting force.

Playing the rein, squeezing your fingers, not sawing helps encourage the horse to soften.

This is great for a horse who has grabbed the bit or is leaning on it. However, most horses lean on the bit because they're trying to balance themselves when the rider has pushed them onto the forehand. In this case, moving the bit will teach the horse two things - 1. A consistent contact is incorrect and 2. to work behind the bit. (If you bring your nose back to give the rider the illusion of being "light" in their hand, they will leave your mouth alone.)

No, none of these things will teach the horse to work correctly behind, however the issues of contact and balance are not separate, and when the balance has been achieved, the contact will come too. "Quick fixing" the front end will just land you in a heap of trouble once you've sorted out the back end, as you're giving conflicting messages to the horse.

 

[wench]

Just my opinion based on what you've written. I have never seen your horse. I'm glad he feels better for you, though.

Please read what I said above regarding instructors!

This one isnt interested in "quick fixes" and blatently told me that first time I met her.

And as above, tried exercise with my other horse and it had absolutly no effect on him.

 

[Kat]

This actually causes you to encourage your horse onto the forehand. A consistent contact is one that maintains an elastic feel with the horses mouth as he or she moves. For this, a bent, relaxed elbow is very important. Fixing your arm down is purely asserting force.




This is great for a horse who has grabbed the bit or is leaning on it. However, most horses lean on the bit because they're trying to balance themselves when the rider has pushed them onto the forehand. In this case, moving the bit will teach the horse two things - 1. A consistent contact is incorrect and 2. to work behind the bit. (If you bring your nose back to give the rider the illusion of being "light" in their hand, they will leave your mouth alone.)

No, none of these things will teach the horse to work correctly behind, however the issues of contact and balance are not separate, and when the balance has been achieved, the contact will come too. "Quick fixing" the front end will just land you in a heap of trouble once you've sorted out the back end, as you're giving conflicting messages to the horse.

Personally I wouldn't use the hand on the numnah, and completely appreciate that it can lead to a fixed elbow. But I can see how it can be helpful if you are teaching someone who struggles to keep their "end" of the contact or who has unsteady hands. Holding a neckstrap or balance strap would have a similar effect, not perfect but can help get past a certain problem.

I completely appreciate that these exercises will not work in isolation, and I'm not suggesting that the OP necessarily tries them, afterall we haven't seen her or her horse. I just thought from the tone of the opening post that she had been given some blatently wrong advice, and most of the pointers were the sort of thing I could see an instructor suggesting for a horse that is reasonably established but being a bit difficult. I read them as being pointers to get past problems rather than exercises. But it sounds like OPs horse is lacking muscle tone and will need to build up more slowly - as she is doing.

As I think I said earlier the approach has to vary depending upon the level of the horse.

 

[Crackajack]

Woah - ok didn't mean to cause that much of a debate
Looking at my post now - yeh it doesn't seem that bad but yes - my horse does have a tendancy to take hold of the bit and lean - lack of balance and muscle tone so i was slightly annoyed that people who had no concern in me or my horse would butt their noses in and give ths advice...
Luckily - i can ignore them - but what if i hadn't?
As you have said some of the things that were suggested are ok in some people's eyes and not others....i found the things they told me were completely wrong for my horse and would only result in a frustrated horse who (as he used to) would pull you out of your seat, stick him nose on the floor and bolt...
So rather than focus on negative...how about a positive lol
Who has some good schooling ideas to encourage building his muscles up?
He goes through a stage where he blocks down his left side....lasts normally for 10/15 minutes of each session i do with him - any ideas?
(Sorry - bored at work )

 

[Munchkin]

Read my 1:55 post for one exercise...

Alos lots and lots of sharp transitions on circles, no gradual slowing or speeding up, you ask for trot, you get trot, ask for walk you get walk. No discussions about when! Ask very definitely and correctly.

Lateral work will also help him to use his back end and stay on the aids - some basic leg yielding and shoulder-in to begin with.

 

[Kenzo]

No amount of tweaking the reins, stops and starts and leg leg leg etc will get a true contact/outline which is what some people seem to think, the horse has to volenteer himself and drop into that way of going, the balance has to be just perfect and the only way a horse can do this is when he's fit, supple and comfortable and light on all four feet his feet and the back gently rolls, which takes time and patience, although some horses will find it easier than others due to how they are built.

 

[jodie :)]

i used to ride with very polite hands, i never tuggedm far too sympathetic. THEN it came like lightening, it just clicked. no joke it took me so long to try and achieve working in an outline being on the bit. okay, so what i do people may slag off but i don't care because it works for me.
I get the horse going forward with quite a bit of leg and encourage the horse to use itself with impulsion. I keep my hands quite low, and ask for inside flexion by squeezing with my fingers, i then squeeze with the outside rein and keep repeating it until the horse accepts the contact and when they do i soften my hands and praise. If they slip out of the contact i repeat the same again. honestly its the hardest thing to do when you can't do it, but when you can its easy

 

[Crackajack]

Read my 1:55 post for one exercise...

Alos lots and lots of sharp transitions on circles, no gradual slowing or speeding up, you ask for trot, you get trot, ask for walk you get walk. No discussions about when! Ask very definitely and correctly.

Lateral work will also help him to use his back end and stay on the aids - some basic leg yielding and shoulder-in to begin with.

Thanks - i do lots of transitions/circles etc and expect a sharp response

I dont know what you mean by 1.55 post....is that the time? lol

 

[EQUISCENE]

The worrying part is that this extends to instructors, and to the people who teach the instructors. I honestly cannot think of more than one BHS qualified instructor (and the one I can think of is a FBHS) who I'd let loose with my horses. I also know many who believe that, because they are qualified and good at the quick fixes, they have nothing left to learn.

If there are so few good instructors left, who is teaching people to ride properly?

Quite a few I know teach pupils to fiddle with the front end too - very difficult when your child goes to PC and is taught that way then gets a b******** at home because their ponys' head is swinging from side to side!!

I think that as this is the basis for all aspects of ridden work a part of the BHS exams should have students training with mentors/trainers who drum home that roundness comes from behind..