"Roundness" & Being "On the bit"
- Thread starter Crackajack
- Start date
KatB
Well-Known Member
There are many ways to skin a cat 
Aslong as the end result is a horse that is seeking the contact forwards, is engaged and round over it's back, I don't mind which way the result is reached, with in reason obviously!!
I've trained with some very good people, a lot of whom have very different ideas of how to get the result, but all aiming for the same result
All have been successful in getting horses working softly over their back into an elastic contact, but some use a small "conversation" through the contact, almost vibrating the bit, but with no full movement, some have worked on a very still firm contact, with a lot of leg, and a very soft elbow, some have worked with strong half halts to contain the energy and almost work in an exaggerated slow rhythm to get the horse to find their own balance, and some use lots of lateral work
As long as the rider has good balance and so isn't relying on the contact, is riding the horse from back to front and aiming for engagement, not a pulled in head, I don't have a problem with how people do it
Aslong as the end result is a horse that is seeking the contact forwards, is engaged and round over it's back, I don't mind which way the result is reached, with in reason obviously!!
I've trained with some very good people, a lot of whom have very different ideas of how to get the result, but all aiming for the same result
All have been successful in getting horses working softly over their back into an elastic contact, but some use a small "conversation" through the contact, almost vibrating the bit, but with no full movement, some have worked on a very still firm contact, with a lot of leg, and a very soft elbow, some have worked with strong half halts to contain the energy and almost work in an exaggerated slow rhythm to get the horse to find their own balance, and some use lots of lateral work As long as the rider has good balance and so isn't relying on the contact, is riding the horse from back to front and aiming for engagement, not a pulled in head, I don't have a problem with how people do it
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
so may roads to rome and so many horses to take you there!
the captain is very *textbook* on that if you take a soft, even contact in both hands, ride a few transitions and put him in front of the leg, he works beautifully to the hand and never requires anything more complicated.
but for eg, one mare i school has spent 13 years of her life dashing round, either grossly inverted or tucked behind the contact to the point you could hold the bit rings and you still wouldnt be able to feel her mouth.......i HAD to SHOW her how to stretch down, and from there could make her even in the hand, from there we could have straightness and finally power.honestly you could ride that horse forward till pigs fly to the moon and she would never come supple or straight. i had to do a lot of odd lateral flexions to get her soft and to the bit and then more odd lateral flexions to straighten her, but she is now seeking the bit in all 3 paces, straight as a die and active.
i also school a cob that knows how to use him bulk against the rider to the point he can bolt in walk and will literally barge through anything(jumps,fences,people) in his way, he becomes impossible to turn even at a crawl......so again, exaggerated lateral flexions have made him softer in the mouth and neck so that he no longer bogs off at slow speed (!) and in order to maintain that i need to have a constant dialouge with his mouth, of tiny subtle movements/vibrations.
no one method works for all horses, and only the foolish try and force all horses to work to THEIR method.......
the captain is very *textbook* on that if you take a soft, even contact in both hands, ride a few transitions and put him in front of the leg, he works beautifully to the hand and never requires anything more complicated.
but for eg, one mare i school has spent 13 years of her life dashing round, either grossly inverted or tucked behind the contact to the point you could hold the bit rings and you still wouldnt be able to feel her mouth.......i HAD to SHOW her how to stretch down, and from there could make her even in the hand, from there we could have straightness and finally power.honestly you could ride that horse forward till pigs fly to the moon and she would never come supple or straight. i had to do a lot of odd lateral flexions to get her soft and to the bit and then more odd lateral flexions to straighten her, but she is now seeking the bit in all 3 paces, straight as a die and active.
i also school a cob that knows how to use him bulk against the rider to the point he can bolt in walk and will literally barge through anything(jumps,fences,people) in his way, he becomes impossible to turn even at a crawl......so again, exaggerated lateral flexions have made him softer in the mouth and neck so that he no longer bogs off at slow speed (!) and in order to maintain that i need to have a constant dialouge with his mouth, of tiny subtle movements/vibrations.
no one method works for all horses, and only the foolish try and force all horses to work to THEIR method.......
Munchkin
Well-Known Member
I completely agree with you, however do you think that there is a huge difference between schooling and re-schooling?
I only really ride youngsters now and have only borrowed older horses for the odd hack, for example. Because they are influenced by my riding from the start I suppose it's rare for me to have any "issues" to fix as I try not to allow them to become issues in the first place. I can therefore use the same basic ideas with them, tweaked to their attitude/type/pace of learning/natural ability etc.
The last time I had to re-school anything was a few years back and let's just say we had some bizarre conversations before she understood what I was asking of her! But it was quite apparent that her evasions were manmade.
Halfstep
Well-Known Member
yes this is very true, PS, but you are an accomplished and experienced rider with a lot of feel. Unfortunately this isn't always the case. A rider does have to have the basics in place in their riding to find the road in the first place! Otherwise they will be just wandering around in the forest going in circles and never getting even within sight of Italy, not to mention Rome!
Being able to choose which method works and doesn't and being able to apply the aids in a way that the horse can understand, and give the release or reward at the correct time, all this takes a certain basic achievement in seat, balance and timing and experience. Hence the need for good teaching and coaching which is focused on improving the riders seat and body and feel. Something that is sadly lacking in a lot of training in this country.
stencilface
High upon a hillside
I think thats the problem with so many instructors - esp maybe the taught ones, as opposed to the self-trained ones. A good instructor knows more than one way of working to get the horse to go correctly.
But ime, there are so many instructors out there who are local superstars who only have one method, and that ime is the kick kick pull pull method. In recent lessons (and I admit, I am far from expert!
) I have barely had a contact, let alone been nag nag nagging at their mouth the whole time and have to believe that that feels better for all concerned NicoleS_007
Well-Known Member
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
"Hence the need for good teaching and coaching which is focused on improving the riders seat and body and feel. Something that is sadly lacking in a lot of training in this country. "
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nail on head.......i wish more trainers would focus on teaching people to FEEL, to feel what was better/worse, to feel what they did to improve it, to think about how it could be made better, to experiment a little and to listen to the horse.
instead of griding round endlessly *learning test movements* aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!
how many times do i ask people-"why did you do that?" and the answer is always "er....." or "i always have" or "what did i do?"......people just do, without thinking first, or do and dont think if it helped, or just do subconciously.
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nail on head.......i wish more trainers would focus on teaching people to FEEL, to feel what was better/worse, to feel what they did to improve it, to think about how it could be made better, to experiment a little and to listen to the horse.
instead of griding round endlessly *learning test movements* aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!
how many times do i ask people-"why did you do that?" and the answer is always "er....." or "i always have" or "what did i do?"......people just do, without thinking first, or do and dont think if it helped, or just do subconciously.
rowy
Well-Known Member
i truely believe that every horse is different and has different ways to help.
I have owned my tb mare for 5 years and only over the last 2 months has she really been consistently on an outline. I have tried many different ways instructors have told me and they have worked up to a point then my stressy mare would decide she didn;t want to work like that any more and ignore. she would round but i would have no contacts so she would stick her head up again.
so I was taught how to properly half halt and wow what a difference! to start off with i just rode her with a contact doing transitions and half halting which improved her. I find keeping the hands very still with thumbs on top once she is round and through really helps and i give with the inside rein as a reward.
then to help her topline so that she would find it easier to round over her back and use herself properly i started doing lots of long and low work with her, encouraging to round her neck right down (not rolkur!!!! but stretching and relaxed)
then i have been getting her supple so that she is fully in both reins and not leaning.
My 3 year old youngster i basically just put my leg on lots (he is lazy but didn't kick just squeeze) and just keeping a steady contact with very very gentle half halts and he automatically came down on the bit. after doing this for 2 lessons he was basically on the bit and through the whole time apart fron around corners where he became a little unbalanced. so a easy one for me next year yay at last haha
I have owned my tb mare for 5 years and only over the last 2 months has she really been consistently on an outline. I have tried many different ways instructors have told me and they have worked up to a point then my stressy mare would decide she didn;t want to work like that any more and ignore. she would round but i would have no contacts so she would stick her head up again.
so I was taught how to properly half halt and wow what a difference! to start off with i just rode her with a contact doing transitions and half halting which improved her. I find keeping the hands very still with thumbs on top once she is round and through really helps and i give with the inside rein as a reward.
then to help her topline so that she would find it easier to round over her back and use herself properly i started doing lots of long and low work with her, encouraging to round her neck right down (not rolkur!!!! but stretching and relaxed)
then i have been getting her supple so that she is fully in both reins and not leaning.
My 3 year old youngster i basically just put my leg on lots (he is lazy but didn't kick just squeeze) and just keeping a steady contact with very very gentle half halts and he automatically came down on the bit. after doing this for 2 lessons he was basically on the bit and through the whole time apart fron around corners where he became a little unbalanced. so a easy one for me next year
yay at last haha
kirstyl
Well-Known Member
Having read this thread, I would just like to say that there are lots of extremely talented and sympathetic instructors in this country. You just need to find the right person to teach you. I am a BHSAI and regularly have lessons with a BHSII and accrdited BE Trainer and we click - she knows my experience and the level I'm riding at and what my horse has done and what we're aiming for.
If you are being taught by someone and you feel you are not moving forwards, enjoying yourself or understanding what your instructor is trying to achieve, then move on! Life is too short to stay with an instructor (and pay for lessons!) through guilt or because you have become friends.
My horse is an ex racer - flat and hurdles - and we are currently working on consistent softness of outline in walk and trot. Once this is established over several months and he can step under with his inside hind, we will then be asking for more power and lighter forehand. He is not capable at the moment to work with more power from behind and maintain the softness in front, but he is such a hard working soul and tries his best.
Must post some pics - he has gone from skeleton when I bought him in Feb to chunky boy now. Need to develop neck and I'v got myself a showhunter!
If you are being taught by someone and you feel you are not moving forwards, enjoying yourself or understanding what your instructor is trying to achieve, then move on! Life is too short to stay with an instructor (and pay for lessons!) through guilt or because you have become friends.
My horse is an ex racer - flat and hurdles - and we are currently working on consistent softness of outline in walk and trot. Once this is established over several months and he can step under with his inside hind, we will then be asking for more power and lighter forehand. He is not capable at the moment to work with more power from behind and maintain the softness in front, but he is such a hard working soul and tries his best.
Must post some pics - he has gone from skeleton when I bought him in Feb to chunky boy now. Need to develop neck and I'v got myself a showhunter!
girlmoose
Well-Known Member
I was wondering what these 'quick fixes' are....I have never met any in horse riding!
I find that there are certain exercises that help my horse soften, engage hind-quarters and there are others that help my horse stop leaning on teh bit, but I don't find they are quick fixes...they are bloody hard work!
My horse comes round with fair ease compared to others I have ridden. It is getting him to listen, not spook and not to lean on my hands that I have to work on. And sometimes I find the best way with him is by a small kick with the inside leg!
As people have said it so depends on the horse.
I would also say that there are good instructors out there, but it is hard for novices to know who is good and bad, perhaps there should be a ongoing report system run by BHS to maintain standards of there instructors and act as a guide for us riders....everyone can slip into bad habits after-all, even the best instructors!
I find that there are certain exercises that help my horse soften, engage hind-quarters and there are others that help my horse stop leaning on teh bit, but I don't find they are quick fixes...they are bloody hard work!
My horse comes round with fair ease compared to others I have ridden. It is getting him to listen, not spook and not to lean on my hands that I have to work on. And sometimes I find the best way with him is by a small kick with the inside leg!
As people have said it so depends on the horse.
I would also say that there are good instructors out there, but it is hard for novices to know who is good and bad, perhaps there should be a ongoing report system run by BHS to maintain standards of there instructors and act as a guide for us riders....everyone can slip into bad habits after-all, even the best instructors!