RSPCA and legal aid.

[Moomin1]

Why exactly should I answer you.
I feel present situation is unjust and undemocratic unfortunatly I am not in charge if I was things would not be as they are.
Do you think all the press coverage of the RSPCA Is good for it at the moment ? Do you not perhaps think perhaps these things are being often discussed and perhaps the public begins to question the status quo as it stands.
Unfortunatly the government has a lot more on it's plate than this but in time who knows.

Why so defensive Goldenstar? I asked you a question, I didn't DEMAND an answer.

Why do you talk about the government? I asked what action have you taken to change the fact that it is the RSPCA who deals with prosecutions?

Why don't people demand that BHS, WHW, Redwings, Hillside etc etc take equine prosecutions? Or do people not believe that equine prosecutions should take place? Just interested?

 

[Goldenstar]

Why so defensive Goldenstar? I asked you a question, I didn't DEMAND an answer.

Why do you talk about the government? I asked what action have you taken to change the fact that it is the RSPCA who deals with prosecutions?

Why don't people demand that BHS, WHW, Redwings, Hillside etc etc take equine prosecutions? Or do people not believe that equine prosecutions should take place? Just interested?

I don't demand that other charities take prosecutions because I don't think any charities should be doing it.
I am not defensive I am extremely clear about my view in this what action I have taken has nothing to do with my opinions.
I do believe that animal prosecutions take place I am quite clear about my position on this they should investigated by the police and prosecuted by CPS thats that's very simple .

 

[Moomin1]

I don't demand that other charities take prosecutions because I don't think any charities should be doing it.
I am not defensive I am extremely clear about my view in this what action I have taken has nothing to do with my opinions.
I do believe that animal prosecutions take place I am quite clear about my position on this they should investigated by the police and prosecuted by CPS thats that's very simple .

Do you have faith that the police have a decent success rate with their prosecutions?

Which welfare charity did you work for Goldenstar?

 

[Goldenstar]

Do you have faith that the police have a decent success rate with their prosecutions?

Which welfare charity did you work for Goldenstar?

It's not about the sucess rate for me
As I express my views for rightly here I choose not answer your second question as I feel if I where to it would constrain my ability to freely express my views freely, I hope you understand that.

 

[Moomin1]

It's not about the sucess rate for me
As I express my views for rightly here I choose not answer your second question as I feel if I where to it would constrain my ability to freely express my views freely, I hope you understand that.

So what is it about for you?

Take those people who have omitted to provide their animals with veterinary care, or adequate diet, or adequate conditions, and an independent vet has supported on a section 4 or 9 AWA. How would YOU want them dealt with?

I take it by your comment about it not being about success rate for you, that you aren't bothered about the criminal conviction success rate either? You're not bothered whether criminals get convicted?

 

[Goldenstar]

So what is it about for you?

Take those people who have omitted to provide their animals with veterinary care, or adequate diet, or adequate conditions, and an independent vet has supported on a section 4 or 9 AWA. How would YOU want them dealt with?

I take it by your comment about it not being about success rate for you, that you aren't bothered about the criminal conviction success rate either? You're not bothered whether criminals get convicted?

I would have them dealt with by the police and the cases taken forward by the CPS .
The sucess rate is a different question , that's about the efficiency of the prosecution process and how difficult the cases taken forwards are too prove .

 

[competitiondiva]

In that case goldenstar I take it you are also against any other person or company bringing private prosecutions including the council who also do not use the cps.

 

[Alec Swan]

In that case goldenstar I take it you are also against any other person or company bringing private prosecutions including the council who also do not use the cps.

The problem is that The Council, Trading Standards and the Police, are all government paid bodies. The rspca are a charity, heavily reliant upon donations, and their current stance on prosecutions is such that they view them, with their braggart's approach, as opportunities for fund raising. Justice is not being served by allowing a virtually unregulated group who, whilst assuring those who will listen to their moral and ethical intent, take a careless, biased and wanton approach to their task.

It's for "Authority" to decide what's in the public interest, not a warped charity.

Alec.

 

[competitiondiva]

And at that alec I will have to agree to disagree. There is nothing political about taking dog fighters, abusers like jg, or the lad down the road who got drunk and broke his dogs leg whilst breating it up to court. Until the police do tackle and prosecute these cases themselves the rspca will have my full support whether it's right or wrong. At least someone is out there taking action against such people. Instead of lobbying against the rspca why don't people tackle lobbying government and the police....

 

[fburton]

Excellent referencing.Must be true then?

Do you really believe that there have never been any wrongful prosecutions? Because that would be the implication of "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" - if it were true!

 

[windand rain]

If you read correctly I said most I agree there are criminal activities that need police prosecution those contravening the animal welfare act should be prosecuted by the CPS. No private prosecutions should be able to be brought anyway as it implies non existent power. So in my view help should come first then warnings then of course in criminal cases of neglect then prosecute.
It is not the place of any charity using donated money to prosecute if prosecution is safe and necessary then it should be done by the full weight of the law not some jumped up pseudo policeman with no official powers.
Oh to win the euro lottery and be able to do something about these numpties

 

[honetpot]

I think there is a confusion here, that criticism of the RSPCA is a means that you do not want animal cruelty stopped or that you do not wish that people who abuse animals should not be prosecuted, that is not so.
At the moment the government has a huge department that covers animals movements and health, DEFRA. If you own farm animals you have to register and all animal movements are monitored. The government is very good at shifting responsibilities to charities, trying to get them to takeover things that really should be dealt with by government ,it saves them money, that is the only reason not that the RSPCA is particularly good at their job.
I would rather they went round feeding and watering starving animals. On the hills and moors this year there has been a huge amount of animal suffering, most of this has been tackled by much smaller animal charities with very limited resources using unpaid volunteers. The RSPCA has done very little and food has been supplied has been provided by individuals and in one case WWHW, there is no one to prosecute as its very difficult to prove ownership and there are far too many owners so they have walked away from the bigger picture which is finding along term solution working with local people. This takes time, to develop relationships and perhaps provide free or reduced castration of colts, but they seem to have no interest in this.

 

[competitiondiva]

Honetpot the issue of abandoned horses is a massive problem. Just providing food is a short term solution the root of the issue needs to be tackled with better laws on identification, etc and ultimately the land owner needs to be held accountable. This issue is definitely something government not charities needs to address. mopping. Up around the problem does not solve it.

 

[Goldenstar]

In that case goldenstar I take it you are also against any other person or company bringing private prosecutions including the council who also do not use the cps.

No I am not agaisnt private prosecutions I am against the fact the that the state ie the police and the cps have stepped away from dealing with these type of case and left it a charity to Do the vast amount of the work .I believe this is wrong and works against justice in many ways.

 

[amandap]

You are all so ignorant it's actually laughable.

That's why I'm keeping quiet and posting far less...

 

[honetpot]

Honetpot the issue of abandoned horses is a massive problem. Just providing food is a short term solution the root of the issue needs to be tackled with better laws on identification, etc and ultimately the land owner needs to be held accountable. This issue is definitely something government not charities needs to address. mopping. Up around the problem does not solve it.

Well forgive me, I thought they were there for the prevention and relief of animal suffering and for promoting their welfare.
That explains why they have no interest in animals that are not in extremis although in very poor physical condition due to neglect or poor management. I stand corrected.
Most of the major charities that tackle abuse and poor welfare of either animals or human would find it hard not to provide food or water providing for basic needs whilst lobbying governments and NGO to promote change, it would be a public relations nightmare as well as being not what most people donate their cash for.
I suggest you ask the RSPCA to change the tone of their adverts as I would think most people would expect from their advertising, the RSPCA would give an animal food and water rather than wait to find the owner and let it die, whether part of a bigger picture or not.

 

[amandap]

That's why I'm keeping quiet and posting far less...

Just wanted to point out that I am not agreeing with fburton by the above comment. Just in case it was read that way.

 

[windand rain]

Royal society for the PREVENTION of cruelty to animals
How is persecuting and prosecuting the ignorant preventing cruelty. Why would you not feed the hungry or water the thirsty. Make sure the horses/animals are not suffering from easily remedied ignorance if people dont know how to look after an animal and many have them thinking it is easy educating them can only improve the general welfare of all animals. Use the money to go to colleges,riding schools and feed merchants and give free courses in in basic animal care. People will go if it is free and lots of people will learn the complexities of animal ownership.

It is a farce that if you give a tethered horse a drink of water you suddenly become responsible for its welfare. If I went with a lorry load of hay once a week in winter to The New Forest would I then be the one responsible for all the foresters ponies I dont think so and if so the situation is an ass.

It amazes me that the soft targets are hounded by the RSPCA but those responsible for real cruelty are avoided at all costs if they are a bit tough to handle

One person I know had decided to give her two elderly horse a few weeks in the sun before having them PTS together. They were seized put in a field full of scrap metal and rubbish with no grass waiting for the court case. When she got them back as she did they were in far worse condition and she had them PTS there and then it was so distressing for her she fought and won but the horses suffered They should have had their day in the sun it was so sad

No one has answered my comment about if the RSPCA were so good why all the negativity why dont you more commonly see praise and encouraging reports about them does that make all animal owners guilty of cruelty and resentful at being on the receiving end of their Justice. I dont think so

 

[MileAMinute]

No one has answered my comment about if the RSPCA were so good why all the negativity why dont you more commonly see praise and encouraging reports about them does that make all animal owners guilty of cruelty and resentful at being on the receiving end of their Justice. I dont think so

Because positivity doesn't sell papers.
Example: The NHS do a LOT of good, but you will never see a story in the Daily Fail about a nurse staying 4 hours past her shift to sit with a patient as they slowly pass away. It will, instead, be about how that nurse is overworked, and how they will return to work the following day and how their tiredness will cause mistakes and kill people. Or they'll start quoting the wrongness of the care pathways.
Society isn't interested in the good news, only speculation and of the bad.

 

[indie999]

Because positivity doesn't sell papers.
Example: The NHS do a LOT of good, but you will never see a story in the Daily Fail about a nurse staying 4 hours past her shift to sit with a patient as they slowly pass away. It will, instead, be about how that nurse is overworked, and how they will return to work the following day and how their tiredness will cause mistakes and kill people. Or they'll start quoting the wrongness of the care pathways.
Society isn't interested in the good news, only speculation and of the bad.

Exactly this.

 

[windand rain]

most of the complaints on line are anecdotal surely there are anecdotal stories in praise of the RSPCA. So most are personal experiences which are in the main negative I somewhat resent the implication that I am a Daily Mail reader I have never read a tabloid paper in my life
Forums are the only people orientated reading I do so the implication there is that this forums users are ignorant, stupid and ill informed. Not a pleasant thought is it

 

[competitiondiva]

The RSPCA are unique in that they are a charity, yet knock on peoples doors and by the very fact they are there in answer to a complaint about the way that person is keeping their animal automatically sets the person to feeling negatively towards them. Add that to the fact as we all know us horse people know everything and everyone else is wrong, or at least that's what a lot of people seem to think, reading these forums!! They don't like being told that they might not be doing things quite right!!!, and these are usually the same people who are most vocal especially on forums!!! That I feel is why you will read a lot of negativity on forums. Plus the RSPCA have been prosecuting for a long time, there are therefore a lot of people out there who have been prosecuted, and its very easy to set up an anonymous profile on a forum and spread ill feeling whether what they're saying is true or completely made up no one knows!

 

[MileAMinute]

most of the complaints on line are anecdotal surely there are anecdotal stories in praise of the RSPCA. So most are personal experiences which are in the main negative I somewhat resent the implication that I am a Daily Mail reader I have never read a tabloid paper in my life
Forums are the only people orientated reading I do so the implication there is that this forums users are ignorant, stupid and ill informed. Not a pleasant thought is it

Erm, at what point did I ever implicate you as a Daily Mail reader? I was simply using it as an example as to why horror stories and poor publicity are broadcast across society.
No need to be resentful. I was actually being nice and trying to reply to your question that you so desperately wanted answering!

 

[competitiondiva]

Erm, at what point did I ever implicate you as a Daily Mail reader? I was simply using it as an example as to why horror stories and poor publicity are broadcast across society.
No need to be resentful. I was actually being nice and trying to reply to your question that you so desperately wanted answering!

you are right, society by it's nature shouts from the roof tops when they are not happy about something, but rarely says anything positive when they've had a good experience. And sensationalism as you pointed out sells! People don't hear about the day to day work the RSPCA do, only the court cases as that's what sells papers!

 

[doriangrey]

Well, I read this thread as a spectator and have come to this conclusion. There is pro-RSPCA (from what I assume is direct experience) and anti-RSPCA (from what I assume is direct experience). My own conclusion is that the pro-RSPCA (with a couple of exceptions) are extremely rude and totally out of order with their responses. If I was a manager of anyone who responded to the general public (forums included) with that kind of (quite frankly) piss-poor public relations, they'd be out of a job, I don't care if you have to defend what you do, there is a way to do it. I don't know if anyone who works for the RSPCA has replied on this forum with such nasty/condescending attitude to what I believe are legitimate concerns - but I hope not.

 

[MileAMinute]

you are right, society by it's nature shouts from the roof tops when they are not happy about something, but rarely says anything positive when they've had a good experience. And sensationalism as you pointed out sells! People don't hear about the day to day work the RSPCA do, only the court cases as that's what sells papers!

Sensationalism! That was the word I was after!

 

[Inthemud]

If you read correctly I said most I agree there are criminal activities that need police prosecution those contravening the animal welfare act should be prosecuted by the CPS. No private prosecutions should be able to be brought anyway as it implies non existent power. So in my view help should come first then warnings then of course in criminal cases of neglect then prosecute.
It is not the place of any charity using donated money to prosecute if prosecution is safe and necessary then it should be done by the full weight of the law not some jumped up pseudo policeman with no official powers.
Oh to win the euro lottery and be able to do something about these numpties

Well said.

 

[competitiondiva]

I hear what people say about the prosecution aspect here, and whether it's right or wrong, its the criminal justice system we have in this country and until it changes or the police start to be more proactive I'm for whoever is willing to take the scum to court that's willing to.

Now the issue of the RSPCA only prosecuting and not PREVENTING, looking at the figures here: http://www.rspca.org.uk/media/facts

"investigated 150,833 cruelty complaints

secured 4,168 convictions by private prosecution to protect animals against those who break the laws"

That does not to me equal persecuting and prosecuting everyone???? That says that 146,665 complaints in 2012 were dealt with by other means. Add that to the other figures on that link and you've got a hell of a lot more going on than just courts and prosecutions!!!

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

The RSPCA are unique in that they are a charity, yet knock on peoples doors and by the very fact they are there in answer to a complaint about the way that person is keeping their animal automatically sets the person to feeling negatively towards them. Add that to the fact as we all know us horse people know everything and everyone else is wrong, or at least that's what a lot of people seem to think, reading these forums!! They don't like being told that they might not be doing things quite right!!!, and these are usually the same people who are most vocal especially on forums!!! That I feel is why you will read a lot of negativity on forums. Plus the RSPCA have been prosecuting for a long time, there are therefore a lot of people out there who have been prosecuted, and its very easy to set up an anonymous profile on a forum and spread ill feeling whether what they're saying is true or completely made up no one knows!

Hang on a minute.

The RSPCA prosecutes for neglect/cruelty, yet you are suggesting that these same people are on a forum that is almost solely about how to keep/treat their animals, day in and day out, on the off chance that they can have a pop at the RSPCA.

Now that's paranoia speaking.

 

[competitiondiva]

Hang on a minute.

The RSPCA prosecutes for neglect/cruelty, yet you are suggesting that these same people are on a forum that is almost solely about how to keep/treat their animals, day in and day out, on the off chance that they can have a pop at the RSPCA.

Now that's paranoia speaking.

I remember reading lots of comments on this very forum from various 'friends' of jg before his prosecution, so no I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility at all!!!