RSPCA muddy field case update!

Wagtail said:
Why on guard? I think that to react this extremely you obviously feel bad about something. People tend to get angry and defensive when they know there is some truth in what others are accusing them of. You probably hate the fact they are in such mud, but know there is nothing you can do about it. You are probably just annoyed that your neighbours don't understand this. Don't take it out on te RSPCA who are just doin their job.
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I think that's exactly at the forefront of the OPs mind, that her horses are standing around in a mud-ridden field with no hay for part of the time, and she'd rather they weren't. This is evidenced by her going on and on about the mud and being reported for mud and saying everyones fields are covered in mud. Well OP, sorry but you're wrong, none of my fields are covered in mud and I'd think there are others whose fields are not mud-baths. I digress, the saga is over, let it drop.
 
Spring Feather said:
I think that's exactly at the forefront of the OPs mind, that her horses are standing around in a mud-ridden field with no hay for part of the time, and she'd rather they weren't. This is evidenced by her going on and on about the mud and being reported for mud and saying everyones fields are covered in mud. Well OP, sorry but you're wrong, none of my fields are covered in mud and I'd think there are others whose fields are not mud-baths. I digress, the saga is over, let it drop.
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My fields are beautiful at the moment, though that is because we have an all weather turnout for this kind of weather. I can't wait until things dry up though and I can watch them go out onto the paddocks. At least they get all year round turnout however. They have not missed a day out in six years.
 
Spring Feather said:
I think that's exactly at the forefront of the OPs mind, that her horses are standing around in a mud-ridden field with no hay for part of the time, and she'd rather they weren't. This is evidenced by her going on and on about the mud and being reported for mud and saying everyones fields are covered in mud. Well OP, sorry but you're wrong, none of my fields are covered in mud and I'd think there are others whose fields are not mud-baths. I digress, the saga is over, let it drop.
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Out of interest, are your horses turned out for long periods of time every day?
 
Booboos said:
That is a relief for you!

Personally I would leave well enough alone as he was only doing his job and the RSPCA do get criticised a lot for not bothering. Checking for water, food and general condition seems a sensible thing to do and he didn't cause you or your horses any harm.
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Good poin;)t. Sorry for the stress it all put you through though:(
 
Allover said:
Out of interest, are your horses turned out for long periods of time every day?
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I believe from an earlier comment they are out 24/7.

Well my goodness me, this really seems to have spiraled well out!!!

Why do you only mention the officer being rude, halfway through this post, no mention of it at the beginning?? I have found in my experience sometimes when people are a little distracted or heated over something, a minor comment can be taken totally out of context or other meanings drawn from it which weren't meant etc. But if OP you really do feel that the officer was rude, then I would say to write a letter of complaint to the head office. If nothing else tell them about the quote of having right of access. Unless as i said before there is a footpath across your field.

If you were able to step back from this situation and detach your personal feelings, can you see that the officer attended a complaint, went and saw all was fine, did not commit a criminal offence in doing so, caused no harm or damage. Notified you and closed the job. Yes you could sue them for trespass, but what has it cost you? You've lost no stock, had no damage caused, had no financial outlay? But by all means seek advise from a legal specialist if that is what you want to do.

But with regard to stressing out, please (micheal winner moment...... 'calm down'!! C'mon made you smile then???!), no harm was done, it's closed now. We can all think of times when 'what if' had occured but we'd stress ourselves to an early grave if we always thought like that. Nothing happened and alls well x
 
RSPCA - Waste of time... We used to get a visit when it started to warm up and the day light hours changed..then they would insist on this and that and then wouldn't see them for another year or so..

Who's caring for the animals in the depth of winter and snow, wind and rain..caring for anmals is not a 9-5 job.. Have you ever tried to call them back when they leave a note.. Its hopeless unless its a week day and within working hours..

They don't see the whole picture and most of the time haven't got a clue.

ILPH are best or now called World Horse welfare or something..
 
Starwind said:
RSPCA - Waste of time... We used to get a visit when it started to warm up and the day light hours changed..then they would insist on this and that and then wouldn't see them for another year or so..

Who's caring for the animals in the depth of winter and snow, wind and rain..caring for anmals is not a 9-5 job.. Have you ever tried to call them back when they leave a note.. Its hopeless unless its a week day and within working hours..

They don't see the whole picture and most of the time haven't got a clue.

ILPH are best or now called World Horse welfare or something..
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Have you ever tried getting hold of the WHW out of hours????? You won't manage it!! They only work 9-5 mon-fri, no weekends, bank hols, or evenings. At least the RSPCA does cover 24/7 365 days a year in the event of an emergency! (granted sparse cover but then it is a charity! Not a public service!)
 
Thanks everyone.

I am upset about the whole thing but i am letting it all go now. I may still write to the RSPCA about the behavior of the inspector. Thanks Competition Diva for the suggestion.
 
Bit of a spin off...

Can you actually sue the RSPCA for trespassing? I thought, in an instance like this, the very most you could do is get a restraining order. :confused:

We have alternate turnout to prevent them standing in mud and, when the fields are particularily bad, they have limited turnout. This is more to prevent injury then anything else though.

OP, all's well that ends well.
 
TheEquineOak said:
Bit of a spin off...

Can you actually sue the RSPCA for trespassing? I thought, in an instance like this, the very most you could do is get a restraining order. :confused:

We have alternate turnout to prevent them standing in mud and, when the fields are particularily bad, they have limited turnout. This is more to prevent injury then anything else though.

OP, all's well that ends well.
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I would think equineoak, only if damage or financial loss has occurred, and you 'd have to be able to prove it etc.
 
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Spudlet said:
So, potential scenario:

Horse reported as neglected
Inspector goes to field, can't see the whole field from over the gate or fence
Inspector asks permission to enter field, is refused by owner, therefore can't check whole field
Horse subsequently kills itself on bit of dangerous debris that was hidden from the inspector from the gate
Everyone is up in arms over death of horse, inspector knows nothing, organisation is rubbish, etc etc...

:rolleyes:
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Amen. :D
 
I'm glad you have calmed down OP, its not healthy to be that angry and upset :(

Your reason for outrage appears to have changed quite a bit since your first post on the subject, when you appeared to be outraged about having been reported, and the RSPCA leaving a note on your gate. Then you were outraged because "they have no right sticking their nose in my business." Perhaps the pages of replies helped you to make up your mind about what it was you were upset by :confused:

I can understand anyone being upset because someone (anyone) has been across your land without your permission. And about lies and bullying tactics perpetuated by the RSPCA. If there has been a breach of legislation, I would support you fully in making a complaint about that. Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure it would get anywhere - who do the RSPCA answer to? If its the police, and trespass/unlawful access to a property/whatever the crime is, isn't actually punishable for first offence, I'd imagine the RSPCA would happily take the knuckle-rapping and swan off and carry on as usual. :(
 
Naturally said:
I'm glad you have calmed down OP, its not healthy to be that angry and upset :(

Your reason for outrage appears to have changed quite a bit since your first post on the subject, when you appeared to be outraged about having been reported, and the RSPCA leaving a note on your gate. Then you were outraged because "they have no right sticking their nose in my business." Perhaps the pages of replies helped you to make up your mind about what it was you were upset by :confused:

I can understand anyone being upset because someone (anyone) has been across your land without your permission. And about lies and bullying tactics perpetuated by the RSPCA. If there has been a breach of legislation, I would support you fully in making a complaint about that. Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure it would get anywhere - who do the RSPCA answer to? If its the police, and trespass/unlawful access to a property/whatever the crime is, isn't actually punishable for first offence, I'd imagine the RSPCA would happily take the knuckle-rapping and swan off and carry on as usual. :(
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I am/was outraged by all of it. He just gave me more to be outraged at when i spoke to him :)

Thanks to everyone who was concerend about me. I have things going on in my life that have me under large amounts of stress (personal things unrelated to horses whatsoever) so i guess this is one of the straws they talk about in relation to camels backs.
 
To start off, the RSPCA have absolutely NO powers whatsoever. Take a look at the sites in my sig and you will see articles that not only state this but which give good reason to be wary and refuse entry until you have taken specialist legal advice - if they haven't trespassed first!

If the OP intends to follow up a complaint about the RSPCA the ports of call are their MP, local councilor, and a complaint to the police - who will probably try to claim that the RSPCA have powers and will need to be educated about the facts.

The gist of the complaint is that this is harassment, that OP is distressed and afraid. Ask police if they will issue a warning that another incident will lead to action. If police fail to act, put in a written complaint about that too. The police can also deal with the original complainant if they are deliberately making false complaints with the intention to cause harm or distress.

The problem with complaining about the RSPCA is that unlike the police and the local authority who have independent complaints procedures and bodies, the IPCC and the local government ombudsman, to whom people can turn, the RSPCA has no overseeing body whatsoever.

If the RSPCA call, once you have refused them entry get your own vet out to see ALL of your animals and how they are kept. Insist on a written report and get an immediate handwritten note from your vet either stating your animals are fine or listing any criticisms. If there are any problems action them immediately if you can and get vet to sign to say it has been done. If not, then get vet to give you a reasonable time scale in which to put matters right and do so. Get vet back out and get written confirmation vet is happy.

The ONLY person that can stand between an RSPCA inspector determined to take your animals and you is your vet. Make sure your vet does not work for the RSPCA. Google your vet's name and RSPCA, and the practise name and RSPCA. You will soon see if they are generally a prosecution or defence witness. You can also check on your vet at http://www.goodvetguide.co.uk/

The best way to deal with ANY official who calls at your property, or who stops you in the street etc. is to remain calm, be polite, and first of all ask them for ID. Make a written note of it - you will forget if you don't. Ask them to identify the source of their claimed power, the Act or regulations that say they can enter/stop you/seize your property/whatever. Write them down. Tell them that you are going to seek legal advice. If they do not have a warrant, refuse entry until you have ascertained what the legal situation is. If they have a warrant you are entitled to see it. Take it into your hands and READ it. Ensure it is for you/your property.

Remember that if the police are present they have wide ranging powers of arrest and if you get upset or appear threatening you can be arrested and then they can enter without your permission or a warrant.

Never waive or dismiss your rights. People went to prison and died fighting to ensure our basic freedoms. Yes, those freedoms will occasionally produce bad cases which officials will point to and use as examples of why we should give them more powers, but if we sit down and think past the emotional rhetoric it becomes obvious that abandoning our rights will lead inexorably to far greater abuses and misery.

In all cases where government grants (usually) local authorities or government agencies police style powers of entry or seizure, there are associated protections put in place so that an individual is not faced with untrammeled state power in the form of an inspector who is determined to "get" them no matter what it takes.

For those who seem to think that it is best to answer questions, take a look at the videos on this site. They are American and the laws here are slightly different but the underlying principles are the same. The defence and the prosecution Agree DO NOT TALK. You need sound on

http://www.tuccille.com/blog/2008/07/eight-reasons-even-innocent-shouldnt.html

Especially note the second video of the policeman detailing some of the techniques used to trick people into confessions they do not even know they are making!

Do you still think it is wise to answer questions without a solicitor present who specialises in the area of law you are accused of breaching?

Why do we need such protections? The Milgram experiments show us that many people are prepared to obey the instructions of those in authority without question, even if it is clear that such obedience could cause harm or death, and the Zimbardo Kent State prison experiments show us that those who have uncontrolled power will use it to excess, often brutally.

http://www.simplypsychology.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/milgram.html
http://psychology.about.com/od/historyofpsychology/a/milgram.htm
http://www.simplypsychology.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/zimbardo.html

When anyone in authority states they believe that they are above the laws they are supposed to be enforcing it is vital for the protection of everyone, especially the most vulnerable in society, that they are either disciplined or removed from that position of power and trust.
 
Fenris said:
blah blah blah ... The gist of the complaint is that this is harassment, that OP is distressed and afraid... blah blah blah
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Lol! It isn't harassment. A member of the public complained to the RSPCA and the RSPCA are obliged to follow it up. The inspector left his card. OP phoned him back. All's well. Case closed. :)
 
Fenris said:
To start off, the RSPCA have absolutely NO powers whatsoever. Take a look at the sites in my sig and you will see articles that not only state this but which give good reason to be wary and refuse entry until you have taken specialist legal advice - if they haven't trespassed first!

If the OP intends to follow up a complaint about the RSPCA the ports of call are their MP, local councilor, and a complaint to the police - who will probably try to claim that the RSPCA have powers and will need to be educated about the facts.

The gist of the complaint is that this is harassment, that OP is distressed and afraid. Ask police if they will issue a warning that another incident will lead to action. If police fail to act, put in a written complaint about that too. The police can also deal with the original complainant if they are deliberately making false complaints with the intention to cause harm or distress.

The problem with complaining about the RSPCA is that unlike the police and the local authority who have independent complaints procedures and bodies, the IPCC and the local government ombudsman, to whom people can turn, the RSPCA has no overseeing body whatsoever.

If the RSPCA call, once you have refused them entry get your own vet out to see ALL of your animals and how they are kept. Insist on a written report and get an immediate handwritten note from your vet either stating your animals are fine or listing any criticisms. If there are any problems action them immediately if you can and get vet to sign to say it has been done. If not, then get vet to give you a reasonable time scale in which to put matters right and do so. Get vet back out and get written confirmation vet is happy.

The ONLY person that can stand between an RSPCA inspector determined to take your animals and you is your vet. Make sure your vet does not work for the RSPCA. Google your vet's name and RSPCA, and the practise name and RSPCA. You will soon see if they are generally a prosecution or defence witness. You can also check on your vet at http://www.goodvetguide.co.uk/

The best way to deal with ANY official who calls at your property, or who stops you in the street etc. is to remain calm, be polite, and first of all ask them for ID. Make a written note of it - you will forget if you don't. Ask them to identify the source of their claimed power, the Act or regulations that say they can enter/stop you/seize your property/whatever. Write them down. Tell them that you are going to seek legal advice. If they do not have a warrant, refuse entry until you have ascertained what the legal situation is. If they have a warrant you are entitled to see it. Take it into your hands and READ it. Ensure it is for you/your property.

Remember that if the police are present they have wide ranging powers of arrest and if you get upset or appear threatening you can be arrested and then they can enter without your permission or a warrant.

Never waive or dismiss your rights. People went to prison and died fighting to ensure our basic freedoms. Yes, those freedoms will occasionally produce bad cases which officials will point to and use as examples of why we should give them more powers, but if we sit down and think past the emotional rhetoric it becomes obvious that abandoning our rights will lead inexorably to far greater abuses and misery.

In all cases where government grants (usually) local authorities or government agencies police style powers of entry or seizure, there are associated protections put in place so that an individual is not faced with untrammeled state power in the form of an inspector who is determined to "get" them no matter what it takes.

For those who seem to think that it is best to answer questions, take a look at the videos on this site. They are American and the laws here are slightly different but the underlying principles are the same. The defence and the prosecution Agree DO NOT TALK. You need sound on

http://www.tuccille.com/blog/2008/07/eight-reasons-even-innocent-shouldnt.html

Especially note the second video of the policeman detailing some of the techniques used to trick people into confessions they do not even know they are making!

Do you still think it is wise to answer questions without a solicitor present who specialises in the area of law you are accused of breaching?

Why do we need such protections? The Milgram experiments show us that many people are prepared to obey the instructions of those in authority without question, even if it is clear that such obedience could cause harm or death, and the Zimbardo Kent State prison experiments show us that those who have uncontrolled power will use it to excess, often brutally.

http://www.simplypsychology.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/milgram.html
http://psychology.about.com/od/historyofpsychology/a/milgram.htm
http://www.simplypsychology.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/zimbardo.html

When anyone in authority states they believe that they are above the laws they are supposed to be enforcing it is vital for the protection of everyone, especially the most vulnerable in society, that they are either disciplined or removed from that position of power and trust.
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OR, just let them see the animals in question are cared for. Job done.
 
I am gobsmacked by the fact that we are all supposedly animal lovers yet there are people on here explaining how to evade the actions of the RSPCA. I cannot understand why people who have nothing to hide have such a problem with the RSPCA trying to do their job! Thankfully, itseems these people are in the minority here, as it should be on a site dedicated to horse lovers.
 
Fenris, why is it such a problem, if you have nothing to hide, that you mind an animal welfare inspector on to your land to look at your animals.

Why waste everyones time and cost the tax payer money to contact your MP\police etc, if you have done nothing wrong why not just give them access?

"Distressed and Afraid" my a***, she was annoyed she was reported thats all, get over it.

I would have though the IPCC and local council ombudsman have better things to do with their time and money that sort out someones personal grievances (the OP has rrecently said she is very stressed at the mo so in different circumstances may not have had an issue with this inspector)

I could go on.......................:mad:

OP, glad you are feleing better about it :)
 
Well - balance and all that

I love my horses and would welcome RSPCA on my place to check them if there was any hint of a sniff of a waft of concern from anyone.

Better they check, than we have more Spindle Farms.
 
Alphamare said:
So he got in touch.

and apprently not only did he leave a note on the gate...

he actually went onto my property!!!!!!!!!!!!

He claims on the phone that they have the right to do this.

do they?

He said the horses seemed fine and he could see the food/water/shelter etc etc and would close the case. Still doent help the fact that he was trespassing!
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Not sure how he could tell if your horses had food and water if he didn't look - even if it meant entering your property.

Can't understand what you're getting so hot under the collar about.......

Welfare organisations are there to check on the welfare of animals - it's really quite simple. And if someone has been concerned enough about your animals to call them - what do you expect them to do, ignore?
 
I do find it quiet amusing that some people are up in arms about an RSPCA officer going to inspect some animals...I'm pretty sure I've read one or two threads on this site with people slagging the RSPCA off because they 'never go out when needed' and 'bet the RSPCA won't visit cos there are no camera's'....so damned if they do...damned if they don't eh?

As many of us are said..if there is nothing to be ashamed of why be upset about a visit? Come one come all to see my animals...I have absolutely nothing to hide and will show them off proudly for anyone to inspect any day.
 
the rspa lady who come out to us, was lovely, we were reported for ponies having no water all being skinny and stallion being in field with other horses, took her for a drive around the fields to see mares and foals, and our huge water trough in the tree line. did offer to take her to see the mares being left empty and youngstock, but she said it was just wasting time, she took our contact numbers so any more calls or issues she could give us a ring.
 
cobgirlie said:
I do find it quiet amusing that some people are up in arms about an RSPCA officer going to inspect some animals...I'm pretty sure I've read one or two threads on this site with people slagging the RSPCA off because they 'never go out when needed' and 'bet the RSPCA won't visit cos there are no camera's'....so damned if they do...damned if they don't eh?

As many of us are said..if there is nothing to be ashamed of why be upset about a visit? Come one come all to see my animals...I have absolutely nothing to hide and will show them off proudly for anyone to inspect any day.
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Exactly what I was going to say! The bloke was only doing his job.
 
I think the main point here is that no-one likes to be accussed of causing harm to their animals and even if no action was taken the stigma that surrounds even a visit is bad enough.

I think Fenris was trying to highlight the law and yes it may be simplier just to let a welfare inspector onto your land and have done with it. The sad fact of the matter is now that more and more people are being prosecuted by the RSPCA for things like "unsuitable environment" when there are no clear cut rules as to what a suitable environment is. I'm not sure if anyone has yet been prosecuted for muddy fields but I know people have been for dirty housing, etc. Who defines what a suitable environment is for a horse? It would all boil down to arguements between expert witnesses in court whether a horse is better off in a muddy field or shut away in a stable. Obviously as horse owners we can see the arguements for both. Going off track I know but dont think because your animals are healthy and happy they cant prosecute you. They have succesfully prosecuted people with healthy/happy animals that arent demeed as being kept in the right environment.
 
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