RSPCA prosecuting the Heythrop hunt

[shannonandtay]

Actually, my research which has included many veterinary reports shows that the stress endured during the chase is the same as any endured during a disturbance in their habitat. It's rare that they know until the last final minutes, and even so, the chase endured is no more than what there body is capable of, providing they're healthy

If its rare that they know, why do they then bother to run for their lives. Sorry I don't understand what you mean by that, can they not smell and sense a pack of hounds running them down. In this country it's illegal, end of as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Natch]

Again for those who mise it earlier in the thread, it is not fair to say it was a misuse of funds - we don't know if one or two major donors would have been supported the rspca pursuing this case, and we do know thanks to horserider's link that the rspca do fundraise directly for prossecuting illegal bloodsports. If the money used came from a pot donated to by people who knew what it was to be used for, then it's a fair use of that money.

 

[indie999]

Talking of socializing, that's what lots of people go hunting for, the cruelty aspect is either put to the back of the mind or a stupid attempt to justify it as a humainly acceptable way of control, which it isn't. Hunts are not legitimate any more, in fact most are illegal because of the types that get involved assuming they are above the law. Well, here's the news, people convicted are the same as any other common criminal with a criminal record. I've been in farming all my life, and rode with hounds many times. I decided off my own bat I didn't want anything to do with hunting any more because it is cruel and that cannot be excused or disguised nor should it be.

I agree, its called out of sight out of mind. I just wish people who want to go out socialising and whizzing around the countryside for a good few hours out didnt have to kill wildlife.

I do support any animal charity that bothers about animal welfare. At least they get off their a......s and try to stop it. Easy to let someone else do it isnt it. I do aliken it to bullfighting/cockfighting etc. I dont see the difference. Its not culling some people call it "sport". I dont. Its cruel. I know many young people go and they say "oh I dont want to see the kill"????So why did they go, jolly good old day out.

 

[Clodagh]

If its rare that they know, why do they then bother to run for their lives. Sorry I don't understand what you mean by that, can they not smell and sense a pack of hounds running them down. In this country it's illegal, end of as far as I'm concerned.

I am so on the fence about hunting I have splinters in my bum, but when you see a hunted fox they don't look stressed as such, they are always thinking and usually just trotting along. Only when they get very tired do you see signs of 'stress' and even then I doubt they are worrying, they are animals and don't see ahead like we do.

 

[Shantara]

I am so on the fence about hunting I have splinters in my bum, but when you see a hunted fox they don't look stressed as such, they are always thinking and usually just trotting along. Only when they get very tired do you see signs of 'stress' and even then I doubt they are worrying, they are animals and don't see ahead like we do.

I beg to differ. Hunted animals know they are running for their lives. They might not sprint, because they know if they use all their energy they will be caught, so if a fox is trotting, it knows it has time to think about how to get away. Animals might not have quite the same concept of death as we do, but they know if they get caught - game over.
Why do you think horses spook, or run from something? They know if they get caught by that "lion" they will die. Sure, with pet horses it's a bit silly of them to think that, but it's so deeply ingrained into their heads, as you'll know, it takes training to get it out!

Animals are smarter than a lot of people give them credit for, they do know about death and it terrifies them when they know it could be coming.

 

[cptrayes]

I am so on the fence about hunting I have splinters in my bum, but when you see a hunted fox they don't look stressed as such, they are always thinking and usually just trotting along. Only when they get very tired do you see signs of 'stress' and even then I doubt they are worrying, they are animals and don't see ahead like we do.

That doesn't fit the description of the fox I saw on the last fox hunt I ever went on. It was running for its life with a pack of hounds on its heels and looked absolutely terrified. I saw it from a few yards away and I was so disgusted with myself for getting my own entertainment from something that resulted in torturing that animal that I have never hunted fox since.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I am so on the fence about hunting I have splinters in my bum, but when you see a hunted fox they don't look stressed as such, they are always thinking and usually just trotting along. Only when they get very tired do you see signs of 'stress' and even then I doubt they are worrying, they are animals and don't see ahead like we do.

Not so, research has shown the levels of stress shown by hunted foxes and deer.
Here is an excerpt from a report;


The animal had been chased by the Chiddingford, Leconfield, and Cowdray Hunt, of Sussex, and been caught by hounds before it managed to bolt down a rabbit hole with bites on its rump. Hunt saboteurs and the police officer who blocked the hole by covering it with his helmet, saved the 18-month-old from being caught again. Named Copper in honour of the police officer, the fox was taken to Richard Edwards, a Sussex vet, who found that the fox's mental state, rather than its physical injuries, were life threatening. The trauma from the hunt meant the animal would have died of shock without treatment. He said: 'I have never seen such trauma in a dog, even a badly injured one.'

Account taken from http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1999/feb/17/hunting.ruralaffairs

 

[Jericho]

I initially thought no but after thinking about it a bit more - I vote yes they should have prosecuted the Hunt in the circumstances. In modern day hunting with dogs is outdated and unnecessary and measures should be taken to prevent animals suffering by such means.

 

[Pale Rider]

Cptrayes, that's how I felt, suddenly very ashamed of myself, I turned around, rode home and never went hunting again.

 

[jrp204]

Not so, research has shown the levels of stress shown by hunted foxes and deer.
Here is an excerpt from a report;


The animal had been chased by the Chiddingford, Leconfield, and Cowdray Hunt, of Sussex, and been caught by hounds before it managed to bolt down a rabbit hole with bites on its rump. Hunt saboteurs and the police officer who blocked the hole by covering it with his helmet, saved the 18-month-old from being caught again. Named Copper in honour of the police officer, the fox was taken to Richard Edwards, a Sussex vet, who found that the fox's mental state, rather than its physical injuries, were life threatening. The trauma from the hunt meant the animal would have died of shock without treatment. He said: 'I have never seen such trauma in a dog, even a badly injured one.'

Account taken from http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1999/feb/17/hunting.ruralaffairs

On a purely scientific basis, how could they deduce the stress was caused from the hunt rather than being caught and handled then transported and handled more by humans?
I'm not going to get involved in the 'hunting' debate, but the 'research' shown is not 'research' at all. It is an opinion with a bias.

 

[JanetGeorge]

On a purely scientific basis, how could they deduce the stress was caused from the hunt rather than being caught and handled then transported and handled more by humans?
I'm not going to get involved in the 'hunting' debate, but the 'research' shown is not 'research' at all. It is an opinion with a bias.

Exactly! Wild animals are much more stressed by 'capture' and being handled than by anything else! That is why there is a recognised condition called 'capture myopathy'. It's commonly seen in deer, kangaroos, wild sea-birds who are caught to be cleaned up after oil spills - and almost any other wild animal that is captured for whatever reason!

 

[MerrySherryRider]

On a purely scientific basis, how could they deduce the stress was caused from the hunt rather than being caught and handled then transported and handled more by humans?
I'm not going to get involved in the 'hunting' debate, but the 'research' shown is not 'research' at all. It is an opinion with a bias.

That was just a quick example, there are plenty of papers on stress levels of hunted animals.

I recall when my terrier was attacked by a staffy, her injuries were not severe but the shock was life threatening. For 2 days she lay shaking, traumatised and unable to eat.

Have had a couple of pet rabbits very briefly chased by a dog. No broken skin but so traumatised that they had epileptic fits and died from shock hours later.

 

[cptrayes]

Does no-one who believes that foxes don't feel fear have cats? In the last two days I have picked perfectly unharmed, but dead, mice off the floor. Two days ago I picked up one that was having a seizure, otherwise unharmed. It died. Yesterday I had a rabbit, nipped on the ear but otherwise unharmed, also having a seizure. That died too.

Foxes don't feel fear - oh stop kidding yourselves. If you are going to do what you do at least man up to what you are really doing!

 

[MillyMoomie]

Hahahahahahahaha!! Now I am totally middle of the road with this.
1. The blame lies with the heythrop hunt for breaking the law in the first place ( and then not having the balls to hold their hands up afterward, the excuses I have heard are just laughable.)
BUT 2. The bill is OBSCENE and someone should be accountable.

However, the word on the street is that there was a major benefactor?!

What find most enjoyable is the arguements that inevitably come out of the woodwork with these sorts of threads. ' hunting is a humane method of fox control' and yet in the same forum... ' hunting doesn't capture and kill a significant number of foxes to be considered a cruel sport'.....
Guys, if your are ever going to get undecided people like me to go your way then which is it!!!!
P.s the roads are now the foxes predator, it does a pretty good job.

 

[Mike007]

Getting back to the OPs original question. The question was how is the spending of a third of a million pounds justified. I completely fail to see how they ran up that sort of level of costs. And frankly ,the judge failed to see this either.My guess is that the intention was to "buy " a victory in court and hope to ruin the defendants with the costs. Fortunately the court did not go along with this and merely imposed fines and costs more in keeping with the offence.My personal view is that I am glad the RSPCA spent this money the way it did. It has ended up damaging them severely. So money well spent I say.

 

[Pale Rider]

Spending a third of a million isn't really justified, but that's because the process is too expensive, add to that the defendant's being a spineless bunch of liars, and you have to be bold and spend the money. Well done RSPCA.

 

[Pale Rider]

As far as stress levels go, pretty weak and mealy mouthed to suggest the capture and going to the vet is worse than being chased and savaged by dogs. Not that it's relevant, as the process shouldn't have started in the first place.

 

[Clodagh]

Does no-one who believes that foxes don't feel fear have cats? In the last two days I have picked perfectly unharmed, but dead, mice off the floor. Two days ago I picked up one that was having a seizure, otherwise unharmed. It died. Yesterday I had a rabbit, nipped on the ear but otherwise unharmed, also having a seizure. That died too.

Foxes don't feel fear - oh stop kidding yourselves. If you are going to do what you do at least man up to what you are really doing!

I only said they don't look scared, and I don't hunt any more if that was aimed at me. I don't see how anyone can be anti hunting and have cats tbh, they are as cruel as a pack of humans.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

My personal view is that I am glad the RSPCA spent this money the way it did. It has ended up damaging them severely. So money well spent I say.

Not in the world outside the hunting fraternity it hasn't, quite the opposite apparently.

In just 8 weeks after the Heythrop case, donations to the RSPCA's legal fund had amassed £160, 000 in donations from members of the public.

I think the Heythrop hunt case has highlighted the hunts criminal activity and disregard for the law to the general public, due to the huge increase in donations specifically for their legal work.

 

[jrp204]

As far as stress levels go, pretty weak and mealy mouthed to suggest the capture and going to the vet is worse than being chased and savaged by dogs. Not that it's relevant, as the process shouldn't have started in the first place.

In all fairness it would be hard to tell which a wild animal would find more stressful unless you were to stress test the animal in each circumstance without intervention at any stage. It is only in a humans opinion that a fox would be more stressed by being chased than by being handled by humans and removed from its environment, savageing doesn't even come into it as it hasn't happened and 'thought' is not scientific evidence.
I am purely looking at it with a scientific mind, having completed a scientific degree in the conservation field.

 

[fburton]

I don't see how anyone can be anti hunting and have cats tbh, they are as cruel as a pack of humans.

Their motivation for hunting is rather different though, isn't it? On top of which, we have a moral sense (or are supposed to) whereas cats don't.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

In all fairness it would be hard to tell which a wild animal would find more stressful unless you were to stress test the animal in each circumstance without intervention at any stage. It is only in a humans opinion that a fox would be more stressed by being chased than by being handled by humans and removed from its environment, savageing doesn't even come into it as it hasn't happened and 'thought' is not scientific evidence.
I am purely looking at it with a scientific mind, having completed a scientific degree in the conservation field.

Have you read Professor Bateson's scientific research on stress levels of hunting deer ?

 

[shannonandtay]

I know this isnt the same thing as such but when my dog was attacked by a mastiff, she screamed like a child and it was the most awful sound, despite our attempts to drag the dog off her, she managed to get free herself and boy did she run for her life. When I caught up with her she was shaking like a leaf and terrified, is a fox much different from a dog?

 

[marmalade76]

Brontie, The first rule of doing research for surveys is to ask the questions to an unbiased audience, to prevent the results being skewed. If you wanted the results to be predominately "no", then fine carry on with your survey. If however you actually want to get a true picture of the general public's feelings on this case, then go ask somewhere that isn't called "horse and hound" - where quite obviously the majority of readers support hunting.

I disagree, IME there are just as many anit-hunting folks on here as there are pro and just as many in between.

 

[cptrayes]

I don't see how anyone can be anti hunting and have cats tbh, they are as cruel as a pack of humans.

Easy. My cats are doing something entirely natural to them and they don't have the option of buying humane mouse traps and they can't use a gun because they don't have opposable thumbs.

Unfortunately they do obviously take pleasure out of hunting small animals and in letting them get away so that they can chase them again, but they have no ability to realise that what they are doing is in any way unfair to their prey. The same cannot be said for humans.

 

[shannonandtay]

Easy. My cats are doing something entirely natural to them and they don't have the option of buying humane mouse traps and they can't use a gun because they don't have opposable thumbs.

Unfortunately they do obviously take pleasure out of hunting small animals and in letting them get away so that they can chase them again, but they have no ability to realise that what they are doing is in any way unfair to their prey. The same cannot be said for humans.

Agree with this.
Also try cravendale for the thumbs

 

[cptrayes]

Opponents of this prosecution who agree with them having been prosecuted but not the amount it cost should consider the deterrent effect.

If no-one was ever fined for speeding there would be a free for all on the roads. The fact that even one person is caught and punished stops a lot of other people doing the same thing.

I agree that this prosecution was outrageously expensive, but blame the lawyers not the RSPCA for that, and it will have resulted in other hunts not hunting fox or being a lot more careful to hide that they still do, probably reducing the number of times they can do it and get away with it.

 

[cptrayes]

Agree with this.
Also try cravendale for the thumbs

Jog on Kitty !!

 

[Shantara]

I only said they don't look scared, and I don't hunt any more if that was aimed at me. I don't see how anyone can be anti hunting and have cats tbh, they are as cruel as a pack of humans.

They don't look scared?! Youtube fox hunting as I just have and you'll see plenty who (even though they get away) look absolutely terrified!

Like cptrayes said, cats are hunting because that's what they naturally do. Just like lions, sharks, hawks, wolves and other such things.

 

[Shutterbug]

I only said they don't look scared, and I don't hunt any more if that was aimed at me. I don't see how anyone can be anti hunting and have cats tbh, they are as cruel as a pack of humans.

Cats hunt because its their nature to hunt for food. Fox hunting is not about hunting for food, its about hunting for pleasure and sport. So your comparison is a little off the mark