Run out of money and no answers… what next?

If it were mine, I would look to see if the horse were happy in the field/on rest or not. If happy, I'd turn away for the winter.

That said, I'd also cover the basics, such as teeth, saddle fit, and any investigations that I could afford. I would treat as for hind gut ulcers. I would try a good vitamin supplement, vitamin E, contact Trinity Consultants for a herbal cocktail (I know I will be mocked for this, but I've found it can help, with several horses!) and have a qualified physio. But, if the horse is happy in the field, then I would be turning away. I do think that often things will self right.
 
Exasperated said:
Please don’t question the OP’s ethics or conscience!
it is fairly obvious that they know the horse has started with issues to resolve, are very worried about this, has other commitments to finance, and quite simply is unable to spend such money right now. OP may well be able to spend when saved up for a while, but clearly not now! That is clear enough, surely?
suggesting all these possible veterinary explorations - unless you are offering to finance them -isn’t constructive.
It may be the horse is never going to come right, which would be another distressing loss, too, but at present seems reasonable to give the (young) animal the benefit of the doubt rather than destroy him, and selling him on to get out of the situation is likely to be equally ‘ unethical’.
If he is turned away and deteriorates wildly, sadly OP will have no choice, but that does not currently sound the case at all.
Plunging into debt won’t help the OP, either of her horses, or her peace of mind - don’t!
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It's not questioning the OP's ethics, it's challenging the opinions of those who suggested just turning the horse away. That is not fair on a horse in pain, and isn’t a cheap solution. The minimum realistic cost to turn away (assuming the OP has their own land but will need to feed some forage) is going to total more than the costs of the investigations I suggested.
 
TheMule said:
It's not questioning the OP's ethics, it's challenging the opinions of those who suggested just turning the horse away. That is not fair on a horse in pain, and isn’t a cheap solution. The minimum realistic cost to turn away (assuming the OP has their own land but will need to feed some forage) is going to total more than the costs of the investigations I suggested.
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I agree.

I would never recommend anyone put themselves in serious financial strife, but equally it’s not unreasonable to expect an animal owner to find ~1k, credit card on 0%.

Whilst there are no certainties on anything, given the horse is presenting fairly clearly under saddle, I’d be surprised if something wasn’t discovered in neck/back/hocks.

Again, I don’t have X-ray eyes or a crystal ball but I suspect one of the 2 below outcomes will be most likely:

1) show stopper found - pts
2) issue found that is operable, I’d hope that if ridden off cards then pain manageable for turnaway while OP decides/saves whether to operate and rehab or not.
 
TheMule said:
That is not fair on a horse in pain, and isn’t a cheap solution
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I agree with this, and I was one who recommends turning away, and OP has to (assumedly) pay livery whether the horse is ridden or turned away? But to be honest, I offered that solution as I was under the impression this is not a horse that is showing signs of lameness or pain in the field as this was not stated. Perhaps OP can clarify?
 
Someone at our yard has been trying for 2 years to get to the bottom of her geldings explosive episodes etc etc it turns out he has neurological issues/wobblers he is now 7 and being PTS seems to be the only option.
 
Ok so 2k for a bone scan is a lot if you’re self funding so can totally appreciate that not being an option.

Would personally involve someone good at looking at the whole horse holistically and identifying subtle issues.

Tom Beech is an osteo & vet who specialises in these kinds of things ie where the horse is obviously “not right” but not lame in the traditional sense. He might find areas of tension to release that could solve the issue (along with a good follow up rehab plan) or he might recommend further investigation into a certain area which may or may not be within your means to do. (Easiest way to see him would be to go to whichever your nearest clinic of his is, he goes all over the place and seems to come into a particular area once every few months)

Another option (with your vets permission) would be a physio called Yasmin Stuart who is very hot on postural issues & things related to that & again I think a lot of her work is “there’s something not right but we can’t figure out what” kind of stuff. No personal experience with her but I do use an acquaintance who works in a similar way called Kirsty Rawden (she’s based in Yorkshire hence a lot more convenient for me/ could see me much quicker but does travel a little outside this whereas Yasmin is based down South but travels all over the place)

Would guesstimate either of these options is probably going to set you back a few hundred quid which I know still isn’t “cheap” but considerably less than £2k although of course there’s still no guarantee of a good outcome whatever you choose.

The other option would be to turn away over Winter and see what comes back like in Spring. (Ideally with a period of posture improving groundwork before attempting ridden work) If it’s some kind of niggly injury this might help. If something more serious obviously it won’t. Obviously this option only viable if the only time the horse is unhappy is during ridden work & is behaving normally in the field.

All this assumes things like teeth, bit fit and saddle fit / trying a different saddle in case doesn’t like style of current one have already been addressed
 
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I know Tom Beech gets a lot of recommendations on here but I think it's important to show other experiences and honesty I found the appointment a waste of money and he's not cheap.
I'm sure he's great when you've tried every other avenue but this horse hasn't had X-rays yet so I'd say other than scoping no investigations done.
Tom doesn't see them move, he saw my mare and the others that day in a stable. We came away with a suggestion for an ulcer supplement (she'd already been treated for ulcers and scoped clear) that I'm pretty confident he suggests for everyone and to contact someone for groundwork exercises.
Turns out she had PSD, there was no way he was ever going to find that.
Just my opinion.
 
I’m all for supportive therapies, but surely no therapist worth their salt would be happy to do any serious work on a horse showing significant behaviour manifestations and without vet investigations?

At most, a hands on check to say ‘I’m feeling this, I’d suggest you scan/xray here …’
 
ihatework said:
I’m all for supportive therapies, but surely no therapist worth their salt would be happy to do any serious work on a horse showing significant behaviour manifestations and without vet investigations?

At most, a hands on check to say ‘I’m feeling this, I’d suggest you scan/xray here …’
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It's had vet investigations though - owner has run out of money for any more. A good therapist might be able to spot a dysfunctional movement pattern or an area of uneven muscle development. With that info the owner could possibly do some therapeutic exercises.

Vets won't always refer to another professional which I think is a shame - I've had far better results with bodyworkers & wonky horses than vets (& after spending a fortune at the vets)
 
SEL said:
It's had vet investigations though - owner has run out of money for any more. A good therapist might be able to spot a dysfunctional movement pattern or an area of uneven muscle development. With that info the owner could possibly do some therapeutic exercises.

Vets won't always refer to another professional which I think is a shame - I've had far better results with bodyworkers & wonky horses than vets (& after spending a fortune at the vets)
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Generally wonky horses I’d agree.

Horses screaming loudly *something effing hurts* by pretty much refusing to work …. I’m afraid I don’t agree
 
SEL said:
It's had vet investigations though - owner has run out of money for any more. A good therapist might be able to spot a dysfunctional movement pattern or an area of uneven muscle development. With that info the owner could possibly do some therapeutic exercises.

Vets won't always refer to another professional which I think is a shame - I've had far better results with bodyworkers & wonky horses than vets (& after spending a fortune at the vets)
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He's really had very few investigations. I understand money constraints but I'd personally rather save the money from bodyworkers and get some X-rays.

Tom Beech was far more expensive when I saw him than back X-rays.
 
Hmm, the money is not so much short as not there.
Perhaps should stop feeding the other horse? Herself? this one? - to fund the vets /physios / saddlers / dentists / horse whisperers?
Horse apparently can’t currently tolerate weight of a rider, or travelling in circles, and now headshakes.
OP ‘s considered option is retiring him undiagnosed, (post 1), which suggests OP believes he is comparatively ok in a non ridden situation.
OP cannot afford at present (and maybe never, if extremely unlucky) any further treatments, but it does sound as though OP would be able to finance a ‘retirement’ - post 1 again.
A ‘retirement’ of sufficient time to do some necessary saving, might see this horse ultimately investigated, back into work, or written off entirely.
He is very young to be destroyed undiagnosed, he isn’t a saleable prospect, and the OP cannot pay the necessary examination fees a.t.m.
Consider that the OP might be in a better financial position later on, and perhaps the horse might be, too - and consider yourselves lucky never to have been in similar circumstances - the level of unsecured personal debt is the UK is unprecedented!
Wishing them luck and / or a lottery win
 
This thread actually brings up a number of ethical issues, some of which have already been mentioned. I agree with the points about not turning away a very uncomfortable horse. If it's something manageable and you can make the horse comfortable whilst turned away, that's a bit different.

IMO, we owe the horses that we keep a few things, and one of those things is being able to maintain a certain level of wellbeing. However, I do get that life throws things at us, finances aren't bottomless, and sh*t happens. I almost never advocate for taking on any type of debt, but I would, to a certain extent, for my horse. I understand that we all have our thresholds, but when we buy/own a horse, we know that there could be vet bills and that owning a horse goes beyond the purchase price.

Some manage with insurance, savings, credit, etc. Either way, I couldn't live with my horse being this uncomfortable, but that's me.

It's a tough situation, and I feel for the OP. Hopefully something can be figured out.
 
Exasperated said:
Hmm, the money is not so much short as not there.
Perhaps should stop feeding the other horse? Herself? this one? - to fund the vets /physios / saddlers / dentists / horse whisperers?
Horse apparently can’t currently tolerate weight of a rider, or travelling in circles, and now headshakes.
OP ‘s considered option is retiring him undiagnosed, (post 1), which suggests OP believes he is comparatively ok in a non ridden situation.
OP cannot afford at present (and maybe never, if extremely unlucky) any further treatments, but it does sound as though OP would be able to finance a ‘retirement’ - post 1 again.
A ‘retirement’ of sufficient time to do some necessary saving, might see this horse ultimately investigated, back into work, or written off entirely.
He is very young to be destroyed undiagnosed, he isn’t a saleable prospect, and the OP cannot pay the necessary examination fees a.t.m.
Consider that the OP might be in a better financial position later on, and perhaps the horse might be, too - and consider yourselves lucky never to have been in similar circumstances - the level of unsecured personal debt is the UK is unprecedented!
Wishing them luck and / or a lottery win
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I do get where you are coming from Exasperated, and don't completely disagree.
But just to put a slightly mercenary/objective/financial slant on this

(Apologies to OP in advance, the below is an example only and I'm not making any presumptions on your situation)

For sake of arguments:
Let's accept there is fundamentally wrong with the horse given the type of behaviour seen, and lets accept this is exacerbated noticeably by carrying a rider
What we can't really know at this stage is the significance of what is underlying and how comfortable the horse will be turned away

Lets assume back and neck xrays (as the most likely candidates IMO) cost £800
Most people can get a 0% credit card for that amount with minimum payments I'd guess around £50 a month.
Lets assume keeping a horse turned away is £200/month

Scenario 1 - something catastrophic underlying or so significant that best to pts. Total cost to OP £800 + disposal. with the £800 payable off over an extend period via CC.
Scenario 2 - something treatable and ethical to keep horse going until in a position to treat - £250/month instead of £200/month
Scenario 3 - something significant/untreatable - horse gets turned away for 6 months. Xrays get done. Horse gets put down. £1200 keep +£800 xrays plus disposal (and horse hasn't had a great QOL for 6 months)
Scenario 4 - something treatable discovered after 6 months off. £1200 + £800 then treat when can afford
Scenario 5 - Xray up front and it reveals nothing concrete/useful - £800 @ £50/month 'wasted' but at least you can go to turn away knowing you don't have a fractured spine or something that will cause the horse significant pain/safety issue

Like I say none of us know the OP's position but it's useful to debate
 
The bottom line for me is I really feel for the OP, despite insuring etc. she now finds herself between a rock and a hard place. If she had not made any provision at all for the horse become unwell/unsound my sympathy would be non existent, but she did insure but unfortunately due to various events, that is not going to cough up another £2000 at this point. I do not envy her whatever decision she comes to. Either way I most certainly won't be judging her and I don't think many on this thread would either. Despite all the best intentions and care plans life can truly throw us a curve ball looking after our horses from time to time.
 
SEL said:
It's had vet investigations though - owner has run out of money for any more. A good therapist might be able to spot a dysfunctional movement pattern or an area of uneven muscle development. With that info the owner could possibly do some therapeutic exercises.

Vets won't always refer to another professional which I think is a shame - I've had far better results with bodyworkers & wonky horses than vets (& after spending a fortune at the vets)
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That is a shame and I didn't realise that was the case. Mine has always been very proactive about getting other vets with different specialities or other therapeutic areas involved. You need a team!
ihatework said:
Generally wonky horses I’d agree.

Horses screaming loudly *something effing hurts* by pretty much refusing to work …. I’m afraid I don’t agree
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If the vet has done a work up and can't suggest where to look next, I don't think another opinion is a bad shout though. A physio session, myofascial release or a chiro adjustment can reveal a lot, especially if the horse is compensating to the point the vet can't find a lameness. I've seen that happen several times even in just my small social circle where the horse looks sound but is unhappy, a hand-on treatment has found an area of rock hard tension and then voila horse is obviously lame. Vet can then take it from there with targeted treatment/ investigations to avoid wasting money or has a better idea of the horse's prognosis. It's not vet or other practitioner, it's both.
 
I guess the alternative is to try to at least check/eliminate the things that would be compromised if
turning him away for a bit. Especially as it is obviously progressing with the head shaking (Thinking most neck/back X-rays)

Has he had a bute trial? (with the knowledge that this often doesn’t help spinal)

I think if he is completely sound does that remove needing to bone scan all of him and bring the price down, unless they think he might be bilateral somewhere.
 
Thank you all for your input.

I do understand there are ethical questions here.

He is currently appearing happy and content turned out, so turning away is potentially an option as I have my own land, however, I don’t like the idea of turning him away if he is in pain and it just gets to unmanageable levels when ridden.

I have requested a ball park figure for x-rays from my vet which I can put on a credit card, however, I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing more than that on a CC.

Thank you all again for your input and I will try and remember to update this thread if I get any answers!
 
lucy_108 said:
Thank you all for your input.

I do understand there are ethical questions here.

He is currently appearing happy and content turned out, so turning away is potentially an option as I have my own land, however, I don’t like the idea of turning him away if he is in pain and it just gets to unmanageable levels when ridden.

I have requested a ball park figure for x-rays from my vet which I can put on a credit card, however, I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing more than that on a CC.

Thank you all again for your input and I will try and remember to update this thread if I get any answers!
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It is worth looking at non-vet options IMO

I have one field pet who is more than happy with her life so long as she isn't ridden. Insurance stopped further investigations, but there was "something" almost everywhere the vets looked.

I have a happy hacker who the vets spent £1000s on (sore point, long story) who a bodyworker, saddle change & a pair of hind shoes returned to work.

Too many vets these days IMO rely on their machines to try and find an answer. It was a relief when a senior vet saw my gelding after a niggle and told me to get a couple of sessions of physio first. He was 99% after session 1
 
lucy_108 said:
Thank you all for your input.

I do understand there are ethical questions here.

He is currently appearing happy and content turned out, so turning away is potentially an option as I have my own land, however, I don’t like the idea of turning him away if he is in pain and it just gets to unmanageable levels when ridden.

I have requested a ball park figure for x-rays from my vet which I can put on a credit card, however, I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing more than that on a CC.

Thank you all again for your input and I will try and remember to update this thread if I get any answers!
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I think thats a very sensible approach, I wish you and your all horse all the very best.
 
I have no real knowledge of Thermal Imaging but have seen some Chiros advertising them, could this be used to pin point the area the issue is in? Hoping someone with more experience in this area will comment and educate me!
 
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