Running out/napping

[iknowmyvalue]

Just looking for some reassurance that this might not be a catastrophic problem and that I haven’t broken my horse… I’ll keep as brief as possible.

Pepsi has always been a slightly wild, but reliable, showjumper. If you could get him to the bottom of the fence in some sort of order, he’d go over. Up until about January this year.

It all started in January when we had some saddle fit issues and related back pain. He started ducking out of fences, running off, just feeling like he didn’t want to jump anything. Plus various other signs (not standing to be mounted, not wanting his bridle on, reactivity over his back). This was all caught fairly quickly, and is now resolved.

But we now seem to be left with this napping/ducking out issue, which is incredibly frustrating. Every other sign that went with his back pain has now gone, the physio and saddle fitter are happy. Short of doing a full bone scan, everything physical has been checked. He’s had full lameness workup, hock and foot X-rays, suspensories scanned, faecal occult blood, teeth. All clear. We haven’t scoped but he’s been treated for ulcers just in case, and made no difference (not that he really showed any ulcer signs anyway). He’s also had his SI joint medicated just in case (although again, did not show any SI pain)

Could this just be a learnt behaviour/habit that started from him being sore? If I really focus on having him between my hand and leg and keeping him straight, making sure to keep my leg really on, he doesn’t really do it. Once he’s gone over the fence once, he won’t tend to do it again. It isn’t every fence, the rest of his jumping is lovely and better than ever. The height of the fence doesn’t matter, nor do fillers. 99% of the time he goes left, and 90% of the time back towards the warmup/gate.

Usually I’m a very soft rider, and keep everything very quiet with him. His previous way of going was locking onto anything and everything, throwing himself over it in a bit of a panic. That wasn’t ideal either, but at least he always went! We’ve spent the last 6mo really getting him to listen and relax, and it’s made a massive difference, so this current issue is even more frustrating. My instructor thinks that now he’s actually slowing down and thinking, he’s taking advantage of the fact I ride him quietly and thinking that maybe he can just do whatever. And now he’s managed to get away with it, and I’ve let him, he’s just thinking it’s fine to carry on. Though she’s only seen him do it once or twice, because he doesn’t tend to do it in our home arena.

Thoughts? Do I just need to grow a pair and actually ride him, and stop worrying that it’s pain related? We aren’t talking beating him round a course, or even really using a stick or kicking at all. Just a little bit of pressure. Just keep practicing away from home and having lessons at arena hire? And accept that we will have a few mistakes along the way?

It has improved, and the last few outings it has been one “issue” near the beginning of the course, then a lovely rest of the round. He was particularly showing off this trick in our lesson away from home tonight, but again, once my instructor got after me for just sitting there and letting it happen, he jumped a couple of lovely rounds.

 

[ihatework]

The running/panicking and the napping/ducking out are both behaviours seen with pain and/or confidence.

Keep things slowed down, don’t be grateful for the lock and tank. Keep small straightforward. Repeat often. Hold his hand a bit and show him what you want.

No significant improvement- think pain unresolved

 

[TPO]

What is he like with a different rider?

Based solely on the videos and photos you've posted publicly, you are sometimes quite behind the movement. Your hands don't move forward or release over a fence, and that can catch Pepsi in the mouth too. I believe you changed to a kineton as well and that can be a lot of [constant] pressure on a horses face. I appreciate that those are short snapshots of time.

If I was your instructor I'd be looking to go right back to basics and establish your balance and a secure lower leg. Once a rider has an independent seat it stops them riding off their hands. I'd be looking to teach releases and following the movement over poles and very small x poles initially.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

What is he like with a different rider?

Based solely on the videos and photos you've posted publicly, you are sometimes quite behind the movement. Your hands don't move forward or release over a fence, and that can catch Pepsi in the mouth too. I believe you changed to a kineton as well and that can be a lot of [constant] pressure on a horses face. I appreciate that those are short snapshots of time.

If I was your instructor I'd be looking to go right back to basics and establish your balance and a secure lower leg. Once a rider has an independent seat it stops them riding off their hands. I'd be looking to teach releases and following the movement over poles and very small x poles initially.

I haven’t had a different rider jump him. I’d like to see, but I haven’t found anyone suitable yet. And also he was in a kineton for a while, but we’ve changed to a different combo now which is a lot better and he’s much happier in.

I appreciate the comments re riding. And you’re right, I do have a tendency to get behind the movement (hang up from a previous horse you had to ride like that). Although, I very rarely catch him in the mouth, and if I do, he lets me know about. I haven’t posted much publicly here for a little bit, mostly because the basics are exactly what we have been working on. Lots of poles/grids/small stuff. And we are both a lot the better for it.

The running/panicking and the napping/ducking out are both behaviours seen with pain and/or confidence.

Keep things slowed down, don’t be grateful for the lock and tank. Keep small straightforward. Repeat often. Hold his hand a bit and show him what you want.

No significant improvement- think pain unresolved

Yep, I am aware of this. Hence my concern. I am definitely happier now we don’t have the lock and tank!

This is exactly what we have been doing. And it did seem to be working extremely well. I have jumping lessons regularly, and we’ve mostly been doing small and simple stuff to build his confidence. At home, he’s like a different horse to ride now. And honestly, 85% of the time away from home he’s the same now.

I’m hoping to have more lessons away from home with the same instructor now the evenings are lighter. I just need some hope that there’s light at the end of the tunnel. I’m more than happy to give him all the time it takes.

I didn’t mention earlier, but have also tried riding him on Bute (but obviously not in a comp environment) and he was the same as always. Wasn’t a full on bute trial, but should have been enough as an indicator.

 

[Michen]

He had negative NPA's right? Are these resolved?

 

[w1bbler]

Mine was occasionally stopping at jumps. Appeared sound & you could bully her over a fence didn't palpate sore anywhere.
She turned out to have npa & kissing spine

 

[scats]

The previous way of going you talk about, and locking on in a bit of a panic and being wild, might actually point to him feeling quite insecure and lacking in confidence in jumping. So once he started the ducking out due to the saddle fit or whatever, he may have realised that to him that’s far preferable than going back to flying over fences in a panic.
I’d go right back to the beginning with him. Little fences and grids, very inviting. Finishing a session early on a really good note etc.

 

[GinaGeo]

One of mine would have the odd stop. I was told by trainers that it was my crap riding.

If I really rode him and delivered him to the fence spot on he was still jumping clear rounds. If I got a distance slightly wrong or didn’t ride positively he’d stop. He was still jumping cross country happily at this point.

After a particularly awful lesson, which ended in me sobbing and being bellowed at to hit him we called an end to his jumping career. My confidence had gone, neither of us were enjoying ourselves and I became sure something was wrong - despite the fact that we hadn’t found anything obvious.

With the benefit of hindsight he went on to develop navicular symptoms and I am certain it was the very early navicular signs (that we had all missed or dismissed) that were causing the stopping.

He’s now three years out of shoes, with front feet that in no way resemble what we started with. And he jumps again. My ambitions have changed so we haven’t perused it competitively again. But he enjoys a pop and is back to his genuine, bold self.

So don’t just be told it’s your crap riding. When a previously very genuine horse, starts stopping or running out there is usually a very good reason. Even if it isn’t yet obvious.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

He had negative NPA's right? Are these resolved?

Yes, have been re-xrayed and resolved. He also spent the winter out of shoes (after knowing they were resolved) which has helped his posture massively. He now has shoes on again, but this isn’t related to the current issue as started before the shoes went back on.

Mine was occasionally stopping at jumps. Appeared sound & you could bully her over a fence didn't palpate sore anywhere.
She turned out to have npa & kissing spine

He used to have NPA, but have now resolved. Back has also been xrayed and fine.

The previous way of going you talk about, and locking on in a bit of a panic and being wild, might actually point to him feeling quite insecure and lacking in confidence in jumping. So once he started the ducking out due to the saddle fit or whatever, he may have realised that to him that’s far preferable than going back to flying over fences in a panic.
I’d go right back to the beginning with him. Little fences and grids, very inviting. Finishing a session early on a really good note etc.

I’m hoping this is it. And if we carry on doing what we are doing, he will get through it. He is a worrier, so it wouldn’t surprise me if it was all insecurity based.

One of mine would have the odd stop. I was told by trainers that it was my crap riding.

If I really rode him and delivered him to the fence spot on he was still jumping clear rounds. If I got a distance slightly wrong or didn’t ride positively he’d stop. He was still jumping cross country happily at this point.

After a particularly awful lesson, which ended in me sobbing and being bellowed at to hit him we called an end to his jumping career. My confidence had gone, neither of us were enjoying ourselves and I became sure something was wrong - despite the fact that we hadn’t found anything obvious.

With the benefit of hindsight he went on to develop navicular symptoms and I am certain it was the very early navicular signs (that we had all missed or dismissed) that were causing the stopping.

He’s now three years out of shoes, with front feet that in no way resemble what we started with. And he jumps again. My ambitions have changed so we haven’t perused it competitively again. But he enjoys a pop and is back to his genuine, bold self.

So don’t just be told it’s your crap riding. When a previously very genuine horse, starts stopping or running out there is usually a very good reason. Even if it isn’t yet obvious.

Yes, this is my concern. That we just haven’t found it yet. There’s definitely no bullying him around going on, nor is my instructor encouraging that. I have delivered him on some truly terrible strides/approaches recently and he will still sort it out for me. So it’s not like he does it because I’m not getting things right.

The only things that seem to go against the pain theory and are the reason I’ve persisted so far: at home, his jumping continues to improve and he is super confident and loving it. When he was definitely in pain, it went backwards again, but now back to the continuous improvement. Everything else also continues to improve, flatwork, posture, muscling, straightness… And don’t get me wrong, things have improved massively since this all started away from home too. I can’t explain it, but somehow this behaviour feels different to the behaviour he showed when he was sore, even though it looks similar (though less extreme).

Maybe I’m wrong though, and if I am, I will hold my hands up and say so. If things start going downhill or just don’t improve, I’ll be straight on the phone for a full poor performance workup at a big hospital. He means everything to me, and while I’d love to get him back jumping the heights we have done previously, his health is more important.

 

[DabDab]

I haven't seen any recent videos of him but in your videos from before his 'lock on' didn't look like that of a confident horse that knows its job, it was the lock on of a horse that was slightly stressed but knew it had to go. I suspect he may have been somewhat hassled over fences in the past.

And given that he was going in that way before, and you were also being a bit of a passenger because you didn't want to upset him (he seems quite a sensitive type, not sure if he feels like that to ride), I'm not surprised that as you've tried to slow him down and go back to basics a bit that things have slightly unravelled. And actually that's fine, it probably needed to unravel a bit so that you can build it back up again without the foundation gaps. But if you and he are making progress then I would take that and keep going with what you're doing, it will just take time and you may have to be patient with competitive ambitions.

I would also second the suggestion of having someone else jump him from time to time. It can be really useful to watch in real time what riding nuances they are responding to.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

I haven't seen any recent videos of him but in your videos from before his 'lock on' didn't look like that of a confident horse that knows its job, it was the lock on of a horse that was slightly stressed but knew it had to go. I suspect he may have been somewhat hassled over fences in the past.

And given that he was going in that way before, and you were also being a bit of a passenger because you didn't want to upset him (he seems quite a sensitive type, not sure if he feels like that to ride), I'm not surprised that as you've tried to slow him down and go back to basics a bit that things have slightly unravelled. And actually that's fine, it probably needed to unravel a bit so that you can build it back up again without the foundation gaps. But if you and he are making progress then I would take that and keep going with what you're doing, it will just take time and you may have to be patient with competitive ambitions.

I would also second the suggestion of having someone else jump him from time to time. It can be really useful to watch in real time what riding nuances they are responding to.

Thanks. And yes, I fully believe he has previously been bullied/hassled over fences, and not taught the basics. Just relied on his scope and quick thinking.

You’re also right that he is very sensitive to ride, and very easily upset. There were a lot of gaps in his foundations, heck it took months and months before we could even put leg on without him panicking. Hence why I’m a bit selective with who I’ll let on him.

I do have a friend I would like to jump him for me, but the last few attempts have been scuppered by weather/illness/schedule clashes. But I’ll get back onto her to get something arranged.

He’s not going anywhere anytime soon, so it will take however long it takes. If all we do this year is have fun round small stuff to keep building our confidence that’s fine by me. 70-80cm is quite big enough for now.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

This is a video from a relatively recent training session a few weeks ago. So as you can see, although it’s not perfect, it’s not all bad! Although he doesn’t display the behaviour in this video, this is pretty representative of what he’s like most of the time now.

 

[ihatework]

This is a video from a relatively recent training session a few weeks ago. So as you can see, although it’s not perfect, it’s not all bad! Although he doesn’t display the behaviour in this video, this is pretty representative of what he’s like most of the time now.

It doesn’t look like anything that isn’t fixable/manageable with a bit of patience and training.

My gut is saying confidence combined with a bit of anticipated pain and I’m drawn to the lack of muscle over top line. Keep with regular physio and close eye on sacro region. Lots of core work.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

It doesn’t look like anything that isn’t fixable/manageable with a bit of patience and training.

My gut is saying confidence combined with a bit of anticipated pain and I’m drawn to the lack of muscle over top line. Keep with regular physio and close eye on sacro region. Lots of core work.

Thank you. This is what my gut says too, and the friends/colleagues I’ve spoken to about it. I can give good advice when it’s not my horse involved, but I lose all perspective when it is!

And yes, I agree he needs more over his topline, and just more condition in general really. He dropped off massively this time last year with it too, and put it back as soon as they went out 24/7 onto the good grass for the summer (which should be happening in the next few weeks hopefully). I work him from the ground to try and improve core strength at least once or twice a week, alongside exercises from the physio, who sees him every 6-8wks. I’ve also increased his vit E and protein this week, and added linseed back into his diet.

He is however, according to saddler and physio, the most even and straight he has ever been. And muscles are soft and relaxed (which has previously not been the case).

 

[Annagain]

I hate to be negative but what you're describing is Archie 16 years ago. When I first had him he would rush fences (at the time I thought it was excitement, now I look back realise it was panic) and we worked really hard on slowing it all down - that's when the stopping started. If he had time to think, he didn't want to do it. All he did before I had him was hunt so he wasn't used to approaching fences in a controlled manner. We worked at it and it seemed to be improving as his confidence built and we were finally getting clear rounds but all of a sudden it started again. I think to begin with it was lack of confidence rather than a physical thing but by doing enough repetition to build his confidence we created (or rather identified) a physical issue.

The two stops were different - the lack of confidence ones, I could feel him backing off and he'd slide to a stop in a fairly easy to sit manner. The pain stops were fast and what a lot of people would call dirty. He'd duck out sideways at the last second with no warning. When he ducked out, he always went left and more often than not the stops were on the right rein (I realised later). We kept trying but within a few weeks he went lame. He was diagnosed with coffin joint arthritis in both feet but the right was the worst. He had steroid injections and I hacked him for another 13 years (he's still happy in the field at 29) after that but we never really jumped again - just the odd log out hacking or a few nice fences on good ground on fun rides. The vet said I could but it would shorten his career and he never gave me the feeling that he enjoyed jumping so I couldn't ride him strongly enough to a fence knowing it could be hurting him.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

I hate to be negative but what you're describing is Archie 16 years ago. When I first had him he would rush fences (at the time I thought it was excitement, now I look back realise it was panic) and we worked really hard on slowing it all down - that's when the stopping started. If he had time to think, he didn't want to do it. All he did before I had him was hunt so he wasn't used to approaching fences in a controlled manner. We worked at it and it seemed to be improving as his confidence built and we were finally getting clear rounds but all of a sudden it started again. I think to begin with it was lack of confidence rather than a physical thing but by doing enough repetition to build his confidence we created (or rather identified) a physical issue.

The two stops were different - the lack of confidence ones, I could feel him backing off and he'd slide to a stop in a fairly easy to sit manner. The pain stops were fast and what a lot of people would call dirty. He'd duck out sideways at the last second with no warning. When he ducked out, he always went left and more often than not the stops were on the right rein (I realised later). We kept trying but within a few weeks he went lame. He was diagnosed with coffin joint arthritis in both feet but the right was the worst. He had steroid injections and I hacked him for another 13 years (he's still happy in the field at 29) after that but we never really jumped again - just the odd log out hacking or a few nice fences on good ground on fun rides. The vet said I could but it would shorten his career and he never gave me the feeling that he enjoyed jumping so I couldn't ride him strongly enough to a fence knowing it could be hurting him.

Thanks for your thoughts. Trust me, I’m all doom and gloom in my head so am fully prepared for the worst. Honestly, if it turns out to be something that means we just do hacking, fun rides, low level dressage and maybe some hunter trials, I’ll take it. Though obviously I hope it isn’t.

Have been thinking about it all day. My gut instinct still says pain memory/confidence.

Just to be clear, I am not just assuming it’s not physical. Pretty much all common physical issues have been checked for on a basic level. The only X-rayable parts of him that haven’t been xrayed are neck and stifles (these would be next on my list to do). Suspensories have been scanned. He is completely sound on every surface and on flexion. I’ve even evented him, stabled him overnight and done full lameness exam the following morning. Nothing. When I bought him he had NPA behind, but now resolved and gets X-rays every 6mo for the farrier and to check they aren’t NPA again. I’ve tried jumping him whilst on Bute, and the behaviour is pretty much the same.

Most further investigation would seem to need to involve bone scan/mri, and would need to be done under insurance for me to afford. The insurance won’t cover if it is behavioural and nothing physical is found, which is a concern if I went that route.

 

[Annagain]

You’ve been very thorough. I wasn’t suggesting you were dismissing a physical cause, I just had to let you know what my experience has been in case there were parallels.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

You’ve been very thorough. I wasn’t suggesting you were dismissing a physical cause, I just had to let you know what my experience has been in case there were parallels.

I know, it wasn’t aimed at you specifically. I just felt it was all a bit spread through the thread. I really appreciate everyone’s experiences/thoughts. It’s good to know that it may well just be mental/behavioural/riding, but that I’m not entirely paranoid for thinking it could still be physical despite everything we’ve done to rule that out!

 

[iknowmyvalue]

Just thought I’d update this thread in case anyone else finds it! Fingers crossed seems to be insecurity/lack of confidence, possibly coupled with anticipation of pain.

Regular lessons away from home, keeping things relatively small and lots of gridwork to build confidence and muscle, and I’ve got my horse back. It actually only took a few weeks after I last posted on this thread to start seeing real improvements and have since just kept getting better!

He’s jumped some cracking rounds, with 3/3 clear SJ rounds BE, and even picked up a few placings unaff SJ and BE80, and won our SJ class last weekend. I’m just so happy he’s back enjoying his jumping again. I think his default when he loses confidence will always be to nap back to other horses, but fingers crossed, for now, we seem to be over this little blip

Video of a very soggy but sweet SJ round from Little Downham yesterday

 

[TheChestnutThing]

Confidence. In the horse and rider. You may be expecting this from him and he lacks confidence now. Take it all back down to poles on the ground (set up as a course) and then slowly raise it one hole at a time over a period of weeks.
One of mine started stopping after I had a bad fall off a bad distance in a newcomers class. After that it became a confidence thing for him. Took him all the way down and 6 months later we are now jumping fox at home and discovery at shows again.

It takes time but it’s worth it.

 

[Annagain]

Well done, that looked lovely - very controlled and calm but nicely forwards. I'm pleased my comment above was no more than an unnecessary distraction!