Sabino Rabicano Colour Question

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MozartK

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I have (what looks like) a solid bay broodmare from which I have bred two foals. She has no white markings other than a scattering of white hairs on her forehead. However, looking very closely she has a salt and pepper covering of white hairs on her rump and flanks and a few white hairs in her tail (you would not notice these unless you were told to look).

The first foal I bred from her has minimal white hairs on the rump and flank but has a silvery/blonde tail (he is 2 years old now and his tail is still just as silvery/blonde).

The second foal is obviously carrying the rabicano gene. He is getting the characteristic roaning effect on the flanks and the skunk tail.

Both foals had different sires.

So, my questions are;

Could the silvery tail in the first foal be due to the sabino gene? If so, is this what is known as the Gulastra Plume?
Can the mare carry the sabino and the rabicano gene?

I was just assuming that the silvery tail of the first foal was down to his baby tail and would eventually grow out, but now the second foal is looking like a rabicano, it has started me thinking.
 
Very interested to know how your mare is bred and the sires of the two foals?
I think your mare could be carring white modifing genes sabino could be one of them but if she is a TB then she could be carring the newly found Dominant White gene in one of its variants she could also be a splash white carrier,I have one here just has a tip of white on a heel thats enoght as it seems to have a dosage effect.
the gene rabicano gene mentioned also has a of dosage effect if coupled with sabino hope this helps but KarynK is better at this than I
 
I love these threads, sorry, I can't help, mine are sabino frames, but I find all this really interesting.:)

Off to find out about Galastra Plumes which sound as if it is something out of a space movie!
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The mare is Trakehener x TB. The sire of the youngster with the silvery tail is Libra K (Holstein x DWB) and the sire of the 'rabicano looking' colt is Daddy Cool (Oldenburg).

This is really interesting! I have had another inspection of them both tonight and the 'rabicano looking' colt is looking more roany on the flank area each day and seems to have two white bars across the top of his tail. The 'silvery tailed' youngster is actually 3yo (not 2yo as previously stated). His tail is now a full adult tail and the silver/blonde are all adult tail hairs where the silver colour starts at the dock.

I could try and take a few pictures tomorrow if that is any help?
 
I read somewhere (during my googling session!) that the Gulastra plume can be a trait of the Sabino gene, hence I was interested to know if the mare could carry both the Sabino and the Rabicano gene, possibly explaining why one youngster has a silvery tail and the other has the makings of a skunk tail!

What is a Sabino frame? I remember seeing the name during my Googling session.
 
MozartK said:
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What is a Sabino frame? I remember seeing the name during my Googling session.
Click to expand...

This is a sabino frame overo.
She has the white face, blue eyes, and 'lacy' rather than solid (like the splash) outline to her white markings, she also has a roany patch on her girth area.

IMG_8723.jpg
 
Wow! She is striking! I will now have a mooch through your website, I am intrigued!

It can imagine breeding to produce colour and coat pattern must be such a challenge but very rewarding at the same time.
 
This is quite an exciting time as they are starting to discover more mutations on the Kit gene which is responsible for the white patterns. Last count around 15 mutations identified, in mice that gene has over 90 mapped!!!

The problem is that the old theorised marking groups have been blown out of the water somewhat! Sabino was used to cover any bits of white appearing, from leg markings to all out whites, but it is now being proven that it is not one gene at work in all breeds and that even the mutations that cause maximal whites in different breeds, are themselves different types of mutation.

The dominant whites identified as being responsible for the maximal whites studied are currently theorised to be embryonic lethal in homozygous form, as none of the animals tested were Homozygous and because similar studies in mice have shown this to be so. So at the moment only the Sabino gene found (Sabino 1) is classified as sabino as it is available in homozygous form.

This is not the same gene that causes, traditionally called sabino markings in breeds such as the Arab, TB and most notably the Clydesdale! There is a lot more to find yet in either the dominant white or sabino camps. KIT is also responsible for true roan and Tobiano is very near KIT and may well disrupt KIT! I personally think that the snowcap appaloosa coat pattern will be explained from this group of genes along with the more aggressive varnishing in apps and my sister has always maintained that true fewspots will have both these genes plus some sort of sabino and Leopard.

There has been little research on the inheritance of white hairs in the coat and these may well be other dominant white or sabino mutations, I think that they are probably dominant genes with incomplete penetrance who need additional white modifier genes to really express.

The biggest problem with all this is that it is seldom documented or studied phenotypically over several generations. A lot of the theories around for inheritance of these traits are supposed from very limited anecdotal observations by a few interested parties, many breeders are not interested in colour but performance and do not keep a record or even really look at the coat that closely.

I do think that there are genes that amplify the white in individuals and maybe it is there that have brought out the roaning in the coat of your two foals, certainly selected lines of TB's can do this, but there are other lines that are from very conservatively marked families that do not like mine!

Rabicano ticking is associated with the **** tail banding, so it's not a huge leap for the tail hair to turn silver in a plume.
 
Enfys she is very dark in that picture will be interesting to see if Apple goes darker in his coat shade!

Must admit that I thought a chubari was some mysterious creature that eats goats on Haiti or similar!!!#

I will say that Bend Or actually had white spots on his coat which some forget! Most of the Dominant White TB families trace back to through Hyperion's dam Selene, on whom they are linebred.
 
This is interesting to me as some people tell my my boy is rabicano and some say he is sabino.

He is very grey in the summer from his head to his shoulders with some greying at his back legs and also a fe spots on his bum.

he has raggedy but even white sock at the back and has white heirs throughout his mane and tail. The whole underside of his mane is grey.

So would you say he was Rabicano or sabino??? This is the best pic I have at the mo but he is greyer up close.

IMG.jpg


Nikki xxx
 
Oh dear I've been censored! Admin that is actually a recognised short word for a Raccoon, who have white banded tails!!!!!

Niknkia - If you didn't know better you'd say iron grey!!! Has he got more white in the coat as he has aged?? I've not seen one marked quite like that before! Like I say there are a load more genes to be discovered yet and this may be a rare mutation of it's own. Mutations are common it's how species evolve.

I would say that for now you can only really say white in the coat, Rabicano if they have the Raccoon Tail (though this too may be a combination of genes) sabino markings and white coat ticking as not all sabinos have ticking so it might well be a related but separate gene. More testing will probably tell us and it will help when they find standard sabino, until then I'll sit on the fence!!!
 
KarynK said:
Oh dear I've been censored! Admin that is actually a recognised short word for a Raccoon, who have white banded tails!!!!!

Niknkia - If you didn't know better you'd say iron grey!!! Has he got more white in the coat as he has aged?? I've not seen one marked quite like that before! Like I say there are a load more genes to be discovered yet and this may be a rare mutation of it's own. Mutations are common it's how species evolve.

I would say that for now you can only really say white in the coat, Rabicano if they have the Raccoon Tail (though this too may be a combination of genes) sabino markings and white coat ticking as not all sabinos have ticking so it might well be a related but separate gene. More testing will probably tell us and it will help when they find standard sabino, until then I'll sit on the fence!!!
Click to expand...

He has got grey all through hi tail but its not like the pic on those links.

He is 18 now and I think he has got a little bit more grey on him through the years but not much.

nikki xxxx
 
The back feet with the white socks indicate sabino, or some sort of dosage of it, but he also does not have to much white on his face and most sabinos do tend to have loud face markings the splash white gene tends to appear from the hind and rear of the horse and if he has pink lips as well could indictate this gene in action. coupled with rabicano splash while is as yet undiscovered and is in many more horses than people realise, also the splash gene is like a banged tail its blocky.
 
If you want to see a Rabicano horse in this country check out the Andalusian stallion Comico http://www.gazaro.co.uk/
He is lovely and has the nicest temperament and such unusual markings and also a coontail. He was imported from Spain earlier this year. I believe he is bay base coated. They were having him colour tested when I was up there last time. I do love unusually marked horses.
 
Comico doesn't belong to me. He stands at the stud that has trained my boy to the dummy for me. The Andalusians have such presence and all the boys at the stud are ridden and shown. But my heart lies with spots! Mind you if I had a solid mare I would consider Comico for the colour as I love unusual horses (think I may be repeating myself - age!!!).
 
Really intersting post, my Oldenberg mare is bay with no white except subtle tiny 1 inch square area of white/roan hairs on her side.
He first foal is also bay but has gone slightly roan from her shoulders back and has a few white hairs coming through her tail.
The sire is bay but carries no other genes so I can only think my mare must carry the Rabicano gene.

Genetics are so interesting!!
 
Thanks for all the info. It sounds really complicated but very interesting.

I hope my youngster keeps his plume as it does make him look 'interesting'. I am also looking forward to seeing how the rabicano changes over time!

......and all this from what I had thought was just a plain old bay broodmare. It seems she could be a bit of a pick and mix as she also carries the gene for dappling and also dorsal striping.
 
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