Sacroiliac or Kissing Spine

Oh you poor thing, what a lesson in only using a physio for a muscle rub down, they cannot possibly diagnose any issue even a poorly fitting saddle, I never understand why they are so highly used.
Svend is our usual vet and operated on my boy in Nov last year, we were xrayed immediately and appropriately, as you should of been on the symptoms you were having, I dont understand why this didnt happen for you!
If you were to go to someone like Svend he would certainly work with you and not make you feel uncomfortable about querying his views, and neither should your current vet. I suggest you discuss your concerns with your vet and your view that they should have taken a different course of action, give them the chance to rectify if that is possible. If not go elsewhere. Your poor horse certainly suffered more than he needed, jumping can be excrutiating for a KS horse no wonder you have had such issues.
Good luck. xxx
 
Hi I have just read your post and am gobsmacked at how unhelpful and unaware your vet seems to be, please try a second opinion, i think your gut feeling is probably right.

My vets luckily were fab and happily referred me to Svend Kold at Willersley who operated on my horse for KS 5yrs ago. Although it was a 5hr journey in the horsebox, the amount of experience he has operating on KS horses meant that he was the only person I wanted to look after my horse. My vets sent him Ryan's xrays and scintigraphy and he also examined Ryan on arrival and confirmed that op or PTS were the only options as he was in constant pain. Ryan received excellent care at the clinic and from the second he was out of that operating theatre you could see he was so relieved that his constant nagging back pain was gone even despite a 12inch cut down his back (which you can't even see any more!).

Ryan is still being ridden 5days a week 5years on and is dealing with things that I never imagined he could. Many KS horse have such wonderful temperaments and you only realise how much they were suffering when you look back a year or so post op. I agreed to the operation because my horse was such a lovely person and deserved the chance and I am so glad to still have him.

I hope you manage to get it sorted and if it is KS there are many success stories out there and I sincerely hope your pony becomes one of them.
 
Hi there, have just found your post and can really sympathise. Our 10 year old eventer had always had a sensitive back but this got worse in April of this year to the point where he could not be ridden. After some physio (vet recommended) we eventually went for xrays and scans, which showed the true picture - arthritic changes to his spine. Wasn't until I phoned our insurance company though that the dreaded kissing spine words were used! We had a couple of choices, but opted for Tildren iv as opposed to an op as this was the softer option. This has been followed up by laser treatment and physio twice weekly and the improvement is radical. We're shortly going for our second injection. It's not cheap at nearly £1k per treatment, but it's not so traumatic on the horse or bank balance! Interestingly the horse is also displaying discomfort in the sacroid joints on both sides. We are still not sure if he will ever event again, but things are looking so much more hopeful than they did a couple of months ago. Ask your vet about Tildren. Good luck.
 
** Update **

Sent Vet copy of report via email - spoken to him today not impressed!!

Doesn't hold the report with any credence whatsover but is happy to x-ray spine if that is what I want (has to be referred though as they are not able to do it).

He still is not acknowledging that their could be a potential problem in his back and would prefer me to go down the route of scintigraphy and then x-rays.

For those of you who have had kissing spine diagnosis did any of you experience similar symptons or were yours more pronounced.

Our pony primarly shows up on the left canter lead in which he will: -

Tail swish
Disunite (particularly on corners)
Buck
Twist head and pull at the reins
Over bend
Either get strung out the more you ask him to canter.

Although canters okay on right lead will fall back to trot.

When jumping he tends to rush, jump very flat and can very often get in deep and never lands on the correct lead. He typically will also switch legs before take off.

If we don't canter him for a while we can get a fairly steady trot in that he will be reasonably steady in the head and will attempt to accept the bit.

However, if we canter him on the left lead and it agrivates the back we will see a detoriation of the trot in that he becomes more hollow, head nodding, over bending and yanking at the reins.

We don't experience any bucking.
 
Posted something earlier about Tildren helping our horse. We had no tail swishing or anything really pronouced, just wasn't going forward in his normal manner and also really tender to the touch - back went into spasm when running a hand down either side of spine. Our vet suggested xray and scan. Think maybe time to try ano vet and get a second opinion.
 
I had dreadful problems with my vet prior to getting a diagnosis of kissing spines. I kept telling my vet that I thought the problem was in the back but before I got the diagnosis (by changing vets, I should add) he was diagnosed with Navicular in both front feet, bone spavin to both hocks, arthritis in the right stifle and higher suspensory desmitis to the right hind suspensory ligament. He was given 6 steroid injections in total without a change to his way of going and then we had a huge arguement over how to treat the suspensory desmitis as the vet said this could be the only cause of pain left. I asked to be referred 4 times in total and the vet wouldn't, kept saying that he was capable of dealing with the problem. I changed vets and on the first visit he said that my horse had a back problem and referred me to Sven. After Xrays it was found that he had inpinging dorsal spinous processes through T11 to L2, 3 of which had fused. He had 5 dorsal processes removed, either that or the advice was PTS. I'm still rehabing at the moment but things have improved although it's been a long process and I'm currnetly waiting for the all clear to get back on board. Interestingly, Sven also xrayed the hocks and stifle again and said that there was no arthritis in the stifle at all and minimal changes to the hocks of little significance. Spirits symptoms were very stiff behind, bunny hops in canter on the left rein, extremely cold backed, didn't like to be groomed, started to refuse fences and became inconsistent in lateral work. He also couldn't cross his hinds when turned on a tight circle from the ground. I always thought he had a sacro illiac problem prior to this as he had less muscle over the quater than the right and has always held his tail to the right. But since the op the muscle mass is the same on both sides and he holds the tail to the left as much as to the right.
 
My horse was diagnosed via x ray. The first young vet that came out to look at her at home thought she had a hindleg fetlock problem and advised me to put her on box rest for 5 days. I said No! especially as I had specifically asked for one of the senior vets as I knew my mare had a ' big ' problem and that I was convinced the problem was in her back. vet then told me to send her to the clininc for a lameness workup . I sent a very long detailed e-mail to the senior vet that would be dealing with her explaining her symptoms and behaviour. Sure enough xrays revealed 7 dorsal impingements. operation carried out last september.
 
cadburysmummy said:
Hi there, have just found your post and can really sympathise. Our 10 year old eventer had always had a sensitive back but this got worse in April of this year to the point where he could not be ridden. After some physio (vet recommended) we eventually went for xrays and scans, which showed the true picture - arthritic changes to his spine. Wasn't until I phoned our insurance company though that the dreaded kissing spine words were used! We had a couple of choices, but opted for Tildren iv as opposed to an op as this was the softer option. This has been followed up by laser treatment and physio twice weekly and the improvement is radical. We're shortly going for our second injection. It's not cheap at nearly £1k per treatment, but it's not so traumatic on the horse or bank balance! Interestingly the horse is also displaying discomfort in the sacroid joints on both sides. We are still not sure if he will ever event again, but things are looking so much more hopeful than they did a couple of months ago. Ask your vet about Tildren. Good luck.
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Not sure all this treatment is any less costly or traumatic than the op TBH, ours cost less that 2k, and its permanent?
 
xxMozlarxx said:
Not sure all this treatment is any less costly or traumatic than the op TBH, ours cost less that 2k, and its permanent?
Click to expand...

My KS op cost £1700 in total, however, I opted for a rehab livery yard to bring him back into work for me as working full time I knew I wouldnt be able to give him the care he needed. This turned out very expensive, but worth every penny!

My boy was a fidget when tacking up, backing off when trying to do the girth up, getting on was a nightmare, had to get a leg up but once in the saddle sometimes he would bronch until I was thrown off or leapt off! On a good day he was ok in walk and trot, his canter transition was awful, often running away from me in trot, when in canter he would fall out back into trot quite quickly. He was fine on the lunge, although disunited a lot and showing a slight lameness on the left rein..

I didnt call the vet out in the end, I booked an appointment and boxed him over there, I had been battling with him for 4 months and knew it had to be something serious.. A full lameness exam was carried out and when x-rayed he had impingments of T15/T16 and T16/T17.. They injected him with cortisone and told me to lunge in a pessoa for 5 weeks then ride again, I did this and when I did get back on he was the worst he's ever been. My option was either the op or pts so went for the op as he was such a lovely boy on the ground I had to give him a chance.

xx
 
Hooray been referred to Sven Kold in a couple of weeks.

So hopefully we will know what the problem is. May have to get on bended knees to my vet if it is what he suspects SI strain but after 9 months I need to know.

Will let you know how we get on.
 
Sorry to hear of your problems Mystified.

A really silly question as you already sound clued up, have you checked your horse for wolf teeth? My chap has two whoppers which are being removed next week and has been showing exactly the same symptoms; tail swishing, disunited (particularly on corners), buck, lack of flexion, over bend, stressed out the more you ask him to canter, doesn't halt square (fidgets on right rein in halt and moves quarters out to the left), when finally in halt stamps a foreleg like he's really not happy.

I had his spine x-rayed for KS which is clear, hocks x-rayed and tiny spur found which I am not worried about BUT he is showing suspensory damage (PSD) in his hind tendons following ultrasound. 20-30% damage so have opted for nerve op, although I am going to wait til the wolf teeth are removed as this COULD be the cause of his issues? Like you, I bought my horse last year and he was ok for a few weeks and then the niggles started. He's fine out hacking but then it's just straight lines and not many questions asked.

Like yours, mine is a lovely gentle giant (17.1hh TB/X) and wouldn't hurt a fly so I know it's not him being naughty.

Good luck, I hope you finally get to the bottom of what's wrong.
 
Mystified said:
Hooray been referred to Sven Kold in a couple of weeks.

So hopefully we will know what the problem is. May have to get on bended knees to my vet if it is what he suspects SI strain but after 9 months I need to know.

Will let you know how we get on.
Click to expand...

at last

hope all goes well as can do and please keep us updated

we may have to go this route now --

after i thought all was going well with my mare --she has taken a backwards step with pain showing up again 13 weeks after the injection into her back

so vets have now agreed she may have to have the op --i suppose good news in a way and bad news in the re hab bit as it will be like starting from the beginnig again just feels like time wasted but i suppose they have to try other things first and from reading your posts you have been at it longer than me and most posters on KS to get to the op stage
 
Well went to Sven yesterday - gosh wasn't expecting to be there for so long 6 hours it was a bit like a conveyor belt.

Anyway, saw him walked and trotted up and lunged and flexed the right hock (which on x-ray by my vet showed up a small bone spavin which my vet said wasn't causing any problems) and he went lame. So nerve blocked re-did trotting up and then he was showing lame in left hock so blocked this as well.

Then saw him ridden and he still wasn't any different to ride - not accepting the bit, awful to canter, bucked and disunited.

So he said definitely a back problem - possible kissing spine which we feared.

Off to x-ray, he x-rayed his back and his hocks again (only had them done in March). X-ray didnt show up any further changes in the hocks and their wasn't any actual evidence of anything in the left although Sven is saying he has pain in both.

Back x-ray showed no kissing spine - both surprised but hooray. But now what?

Ultrasound of back showed scarring and thickening to the supranious ligament along the spine just underneath the saddle area. Which again was a surprise as all the pain and soreness is around the lumbar and sacroiliac region. He scanned sacroiliac ligaments and they were fine. (My vet has been treating him for sacroiliac pain for the last 4 months and injected him for this!!).

Sven's suggestion was that his hocks were probably the cause of pain and that we should treat these, have the back injected 'Mesotherapy' to help the soft tissues to recover, fit larger lateral extension shoes and then box rest him for two weeks, in hand walking for two weeks and then lunge on a pessoa for 6 weeks as he is still not strong enough to support a rider. Then he would review him and see how he was after that.

Horse back home now on 2 days box rest whilst we draw breath and decide what we want to do. My gut tells me that we could do all this and their still could be something else going on. Also it didn't make any difference when his hocks were blocked to how he rode.

It is so difficult as we love him dearly and he has such a sweet temperament but if the insurance company decides not pay up we have spent £4,000 on him in the last 9 months and we are no futher foward. Also he is 13 although fairly low mileage. How could the vet have missed the bone spavins on flexion not only on vetting but he has also performed these twice at home during his visits.

Help advice please.
 
Hi, I was very pleased to hear you got to Svend Kold in the end, what a nightmare you've had! From my experience I think he does know what he's doing, I would ask Willersley to provide you with a cost for the injections in to the back and give you a bit more detail about the shoeing as it may be very straightforward, that way you can assess the financial impact, all of the rest of it sounds quite straightforward and given how much effort you have put in to helping your horse so far, you may regret not seeing this through.

Dealing with this sort of thing is so emotionally draining, having been there myself you have all of my sympathy, I can fully understand why you feel near the limit of it all.

Good luck with making your decision, I hope whichever way you go, you get some peace of mind soon.
 
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