Sacroiliac pain :( trying not to assume the worst!

[ponyparty]

Bruce was meant to have a saddle fitting today. Saddle fitter ran her fingers down his back - he flinched when she got to SI region, on both sides.

He hasn’t had a saddle on or been ridden since January. Back then he had an ill fitting saddle; he was sore in the same region, so I assumed it was caused by the saddle. I had his back treated by an equine muscle release therapist. She gave him the all clear a couple of months ago.

Since then, he’s been walked in hand, and lightly lunged, including some walk and trot over poles. I have been running my fingers down his back periodically to check for soreness and he’s been fine as far as I can see. He looks great, not like a horse that’s been out of work for 6 months.

He did go a bit berserk on the lunge on Wednesday, broke free and galloped madly around the school, so optimistic me is wondering if he’s just tweaked something... but it just seems odd it’s in the exact same place as before. My pessimistic side is wondering if there is some hidden issue lurking.

Will be getting the vets out in the week to check him over; if it requires x rays and the full shebang then so be it, I just want to know what is going on. There’s no point having a physio or whatever out again - I need to know if there’s an underlying cause.

In the meantime, I’m going to drive myself mad with wild speculations about what it could be! Yay.

 

[confirmedponyaddict]

I know its hard but try not to do too much googling! Could be so many things but do you have insurance? That area is notoriously hard to scan so the vet will probably recommend a bone scan and they are pricey! I was caught out with my horse's SI pain and had to diagnose by process of elimination with took forever and lots of money...she is insured now!

 

[ponyparty]

Yeah he's insured with NFU, going to ring vets and them tomorrow to check that investigative work will be covered. Too late, I've done the googling haha! I know it was a silly thing to do but I just wanted to prepare myself with some ideas of what it could be. Read a few threads on here too. Looks like it could be a lengthy process pinpointing the issue, and that it may be an issue caused by something else lower down in the hind legs. Yay.
Well, hopefully insurance will help me get to the bottom of it and get him pain free, one way or another.

 

[ponyparty]

Well, vet has been today. Manipulated Bruce's back, all along the spine - he has a good range of movement. Flexed all his legs, no issues there. Watched him on the lunge - he was really hollow, head up and back tense. Worse when I put tension on the lunge line - vet said he'd try a different bit (I actually emailed the Bit Bank last week asking for advice on what I can try, coincidentally!).

Plan of action: X-ray his back next week to check for kissing spines - this is just to rule it out, the vet doesn't think he has it but only an X-ray will tell.

Then, possibly steroid injections (but I'm not sure about this due to laminitis link?) and/or bute (well, Danilon, he won't touch bute).

Then working him long and low in a Pessoa, preferably in a different bit that he likes better. I've never been a fan of Pessoas, I'd rather an Equi Amie, which seems less likely to pull on his mouth... thoughts? Vet said they are also good but that the newer Pessoas do not sock them in the mouth and he prefers them...

Get him to start using the muscles in his back correctly and build up, for maybe 5 weeks or so, then get a really well fitting saddle and get back on and get him working more.

Problem is, I'm not sure I'll be able to ride in 5 weeks from now, my pregnant tummy might be a bit big by then! And not sure that it's safe to get back on a horse with potential back pain. Why is nothing simple?!

Oh well, crossing everything that X-rays come back clear and then we have a plan of action... will have to just see how I am closer to the time, and if I'm not up to it (the idea does seem like madness to me right now) perhaps get one of the girls from the yard to ride him, or see if I can find a competent sharer to help bring him back into work.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I've just been through the badly fitting saddle/sore back/hollow choppy movement thing with my mare, who had been out on loan. It all looked to be in her back, but actually it was sore front feet due to crap farriery. She got sore behind by holding herself off her fronts.

My own fab farrier has shod her to the foot x rays which were taken, and she should be fully fine in a couple of months, she's pasture sound now. Worth considering? I had 1 saddlefitter session and a new saddle, 2 x vet chiropractor visits and 2 regular vet visits inc x rays before we got to where we are now.

Good luck. (I much prefer the equi ami over the pessoa too, I may use it judiciously on her when she's ready to do some work)

 

[DabDab]

Not sure the background of your vet, but maybe it might be worth having a specialist chiropractic vet out to have a look...? Purely because SI issues really are their bread and butter.

 

[ponyparty]

Tiddlypom, that has made me think. I his shoes (fronts only) pulled off in January to go "barefoot". The transition hasn't been straightforward but he is now perfectly comfortable on tarmac/concrete and soft surfaces e.g. arena and grass. However, he is still footy on rough stony surfaces, something I think may be to do with sugar in the grass. There is a lot of grass at this yard. I think I'm going to try muzzling him overnight (with ad lib haylage during the day) and see if that improves it at all. I'm also going to boot him up religiously for any walking over stony bits, e.g. the track down to the school.

But, he already had issues around bitting/contact before removing shoes, and on the lunge would work hollow, bucked someone off in December indicating discomfort in his back. So I think this issue goes further back than the barefoot thing. That perhaps hasn't helped though.

DabDab - the vet that came out specialises in osteopathy and lameness including the horse's back. Will bear that in mind though if we don't seem to be getting anywhere, thanks.

 

[FabioandFreddy]

Not sure the background of your vet, but maybe it might be worth having a specialist chiropractic vet out to have a look...? Purely because SI issues really are their bread and butter.

I second this. My vet recommended we get registered chiro to our TB when we first got him as he was sore in the SI area. She really sorted him out with some treatment and then gave me exercises to carry on with him, mainly in hand raised pole work. Worked wonders.

 

[ponyparty]

Well, Buce was X rayed today. The vet found that his spinous processes are close together in places, causing slight impingement. I"n some horses this level wouldn't cause pain but looks like it is for Bruce. I await the full vet report, I only spoke to him over the phone briefly and as I was in the car and reception was bad I struggled to catch everything he said. He's going to email me in full later.

He's recommended steroid injections; as he had his vaccinations today whilst at the surgery, he's going to have the injection(s) next week. Also bute for a week or so and get him working in a Pessoa/Equi-Ami. I'm just wondering which of those to go for... Pessoa looks and sounds horribly complicated to fit, by all accounts...

Also looking at a different bit for him due to issues with him opening his mouth, getting his tongue over the bit and resisting the contact; have been in touch with the Bit Bank about this so will hopefully have something to trial soon.

Any success stories with similar situations would be very welcome right now... It's not as bad as I feared, but it's certainly not the all-clear I wanted

 

[SEL]

I can't help with kissing spine but I use an equiami for my horse with muscle problems and she goes much better in it than a Pessoa - plus it's pretty easy to fit!

 

[tallyho!]

Forget gadgets with spinal problems - look into straightness training or classical work. Save your horse with some intelligence regarding his spine.

Sorry to be blunt but think of your own posture.

 

[ponyparty]

Erm... Thanks tallyho (I think...). I actually haven't sat on this horse since January, and have no plans to do so until his back is suitably recovered (and after I have had a baby in November - probably not the best idea to get back on a sharp, spooky horse with back issues in my current condition!).

I did look into ST, before I was even having these issues. There aren't any clinics near enough to me, I don't have my own transport and it becomes very expensive. I need hands on guidance - if you can suggest someone who comes out to individual yards for one person private sessions in the West Midlands then I'd be more than willing to try it.

I went to a groundwork clinic at Dan Wain's in Warwickshire earlier this year - it was wonderful and inspirational, but again I don't have my own transport; at £50 transport cost + £40 clinic cost, it's pushing £100 per session, plus taking a half day off work our of my annual leave allowance. It's just not workable on my current budget and schedule. I was planning on getting my own transport this year, but with a baby coming and potential house move, that's been put on the back burner for now. Dan is a follower of Manolo Mendez and promotes his training philosophy; I'm really into it so will pick it back up again when I'm able to. I've just looked on his FB page actually and looks like he offers rehab services - might get in touch with him and see what he suggests/book something in, it's just a shame I won't be able to do it regularly on my current budget.

For now, lunging on a Pessoa/Equi-Ami is what my vet has suggested - I feel that I ought to at least try what the medically trained professional is suggesting. It doesn't mean I'm not open to any other ideas, and when I do get back on I definitely intend to take lessons from a classical trainer. Before I even get back on, I'm going to have a few sessions on a mechanical horse to make sure my post-baby core remembers how to engage and ride correctly (as correctly as possible, to my ability!).

 

[SEL]

I sometimes think my posture would be greatly improved by the human equivalent of the equiami! I'm currently sporting bright pink sticky tape all over my shoulders courtesy of my physio who is determine to fix my dodgy posture caused by a riding accident 20 years ago. She has worked wonders in 18 months with taping me up every 6 weeks to try and re-educate my shoulders (along with my pelvis that has twisted to compensate).

Sometimes gadgets are helpful Just need to be used correctly.

 

[ponyparty]

I sometimes think my posture would be greatly improved by the human equivalent of the equiami!

Same here haha! Maybe I should look into getting taped up too..! In all seriousness, sitting at a desk 8 hours per day really isn't helpful for posture. I bought a Swiss ball to sit on at my desk but it's too low, think I need one of the bases you can get for them - it's meant to force you to engage the core to stay balanced and upright whilst working, rather than being tempted to slouch.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

My horse has over the years has chronic SI issues, often these go hand in hand with close spinal processes (tick) and negative sole plane in hinds (pedal bone is very flat or even slopes the wrong way.) (tick)

Physio, physio exercises and stretches, pole work, muscle stimulation and keeping fit and strong at all times has meant at 23 he’s still hackable and has done a fair bit over the years at unaffiliated level. Medically he’s had steroid injections a couple of times and shock wave therapy but nothing more than that until an annular ligament op at 19yrs. Potentially you could look at if any shoeing options will help. I tried wedges but they didn’t work for him but he does wear a shoe with a special wide toe area to help push off in deeper arena footing.

Would definitely consider straightness training. I wish I’d come across it sooner. I’ve observed at clinics and watched videos but not had any training although a friend doing the Mastery course has helped me a couple of times. There’s a Facebook group with clinics etc on them. If you organise one yourself and get a full day of participants the trainers will travel.

 

[ponyparty]

Ah yes of course - I'll see if anyone else on my yard might be interested in ST. I did actually try and get a few people together and organise a workshop earlier this year - I was only on a small yard then though, (5 others) and had a lukewarm response. Most of them were young (teens) doing PC and not really interested in groundwork. I'm now on a much bigger yard, mostly adults and a fair few with horses with issues of one type or another; so might be able to gain more interest.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The equi ami has real value in rehabbing wonky horses in hand. It encourages them to move straight. It can routinely be used in walk too, as the sliding loop allows free movement of the head and neck.

I think Pessoas are the work of the devil, though, wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.

 

[tallyho!]

I sometimes think my posture would be greatly improved by the human equivalent of the equiami! I'm currently sporting bright pink sticky tape all over my shoulders courtesy of my physio who is determine to fix my dodgy posture caused by a riding accident 20 years ago. She has worked wonders in 18 months with taping me up every 6 weeks to try and re-educate my shoulders (along with my pelvis that has twisted to compensate).

Sometimes gadgets are helpful Just need to be used correctly.

Up to a a point but I'd love to see how a human's posture will be changed by attaching a pulley system to her mouth, stomach and arse as she walks and jogs in a circle for 30 mins at a time. Kinesiotape is different altogether.

The equi-ami or any lunging system is an attempt to subjugate a horse into a forehand posture by activating it's back. A flabby bellied horse can have a strong back but as long as the core abdominals are not activated it will soon go back to it's usual habits. The only way to fully use the biomechanics of a horses spine is to make sure it uses it correctly and it can't in a gadget as there is no forward, down and out - a gadget makes a horse go forward down and in... the abdominals don't engage in that way of going.

If you study the biomechanics of the spine, it's easy to see these gadgets can never give strength to the core it can only ever give the back any muscle, what use is that long term? Without the core, a horse is still weak.

Vets should recommend "correct work" but since few know what that really is anymore, I guess a lunging gadget is a "tool" that can give an owner something to use before the next problem.

 

[tallyho!]

Erm... Thanks tallyho (I think...). I actually haven't sat on this horse since January, and have no plans to do so until his back is suitably recovered (and after I have had a baby in November - probably not the best idea to get back on a sharp, spooky horse with back issues in my current condition!).

I did look into ST, before I was even having these issues. There aren't any clinics near enough to me, I don't have my own transport and it becomes very expensive. I need hands on guidance - if you can suggest someone who comes out to individual yards for one person private sessions in the West Midlands then I'd be more than willing to try it.

I went to a groundwork clinic at Dan Wain's in Warwickshire earlier this year - it was wonderful and inspirational, but again I don't have my own transport; at £50 transport cost + £40 clinic cost, it's pushing £100 per session, plus taking a half day off work our of my annual leave allowance. It's just not workable on my current budget and schedule. I was planning on getting my own transport this year, but with a baby coming and potential house move, that's been put on the back burner for now. Dan is a follower of Manolo Mendez and promotes his training philosophy; I'm really into it so will pick it back up again when I'm able to. I've just looked on his FB page actually and looks like he offers rehab services - might get in touch with him and see what he suggests/book something in, it's just a shame I won't be able to do it regularly on my current budget.

For now, lunging on a Pessoa/Equi-Ami is what my vet has suggested - I feel that I ought to at least try what the medically trained professional is suggesting. It doesn't mean I'm not open to any other ideas, and when I do get back on I definitely intend to take lessons from a classical trainer. Before I even get back on, I'm going to have a few sessions on a mechanical horse to make sure my post-baby core remembers how to engage and ride correctly (as correctly as possible, to my ability!).

I will ask around for you.

 

[ponyparty]

What you're saying makes a lot of sense, tallyho.
I'm going to try and arrange for a ST workshop at my yard. I do have the contact details of someone who may be able to do that.
Think I should probably get the steroid injections out of the way first.
At this rate, with the issues with his feet, I may even be sending him away for rehab, everything is up in the air at the moment.
Will know more once I've spoken to vets this week.

 

[tallyho!]

What you're saying makes a lot of sense, tallyho.
I'm going to try and arrange for a ST workshop at my yard. I do have the contact details of someone who may be able to do that.
Think I should probably get the steroid injections out of the way first.
At this rate, with the issues with his feet, I may even be sending him away for rehab, everything is up in the air at the moment.
Will know more once I've spoken to vets this week.

It’s all connected... uncomfortable feet makes for an uncomfortable horse eventually. Hence the old adage we all know.

Yes sort the feet out, ensure soundness and begin building from the foundations again. You won’t regret your patience, trust me.

 

[cobwithattitude]

Regarding this with interest as sounds like my horse, with impingement, SJD and she also has arthritis in hocks/coffin joints. Age 13 now and hacks and schools to keep musculature. Let me know, please, if you find anyone to come to your yard and whereabouts you are, as i woudl be interested if not too far. (I live in Warwickshire)

 

[ponyparty]

Regarding this with interest as sounds like my horse, with impingement, SJD and she also has arthritis in hocks/coffin joints. Age 13 now and hacks and schools to keep musculature. Let me know, please, if you find anyone to come to your yard and whereabouts you are, as i woudl be interested if not too far. (I live in Warwickshire)

Fab, we're also in Warwickshire! I'll message people on my yard this week and then depending on interest will contact the nearest ST instructor. Will let you know!

 

[cobwithattitude]

Thank you

 

[ponyparty]

cobwithattitude - I haven't managed to find anyone interested in ST yet, but we do have a dressage trainer coming this weekend, so I'm having groundwork session with him. Ken Sudsbury, Fusion Dressage. I think he follows a similar school of training to Phillipe Karl. He comes and does clinics at our place every few months I think.
Also - if you're in Warwickshire, have you heard of Dan Wain? I went to a groundwork clinic at his earlier this year, EXCELLENT. Again, follows Phillipe Karl. The only reason I haven't gone back is I dont have my own transport, it becomes a logistical nightmare trying to organise it all and very expensive at £50 per transport, plus £40 for the clinic. But might be worth you contacting Dan, he's out Moreton Morrell way.

 

[tallyho!]

You can’t go wrong with anyone following Phillipe x

 

[Tiddlypom]

You can’t go wrong with anyone following Phillipe x

I did! Horse very upset to the contact .

 

[tallyho!]

I did! Horse very upset to the contact .

What contact?

 

[Tiddlypom]

What contact?

I posted the following on another thread about 18 months ago.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?742114-Phillipe-Karl-Training-Method

'I took a horse to a long lining training session taken by a trainee of his. This incorporated her demonstrating a number of 'jaw flexions' on my horse. The horse didn't actually have an issue with contact prior to the session, I thought I was simply going to have help with long lining.

I should have done my research more thoroughly before signing up to the clinic. It took weeks to settle the horse into accepting the contact again.

Maybe it is different when taught under saddle rather than in hand, but once bitten, twice shy, I won't be having any more to do with this system.'

Sorry for the slight thread derail, OP, I wish you well with your horse .

 

[tallyho!]

I posted the following on another thread about 18 months ago.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?742114-Phillipe-Karl-Training-Method

'I took a horse to a long lining training session taken by a trainee of his. This incorporated her demonstrating a number of 'jaw flexions' on my horse. The horse didn't actually have an issue with contact prior to the session, I thought I was simply going to have help with long lining.

I should have done my research more thoroughly before signing up to the clinic. It took weeks to settle the horse into accepting the contact again.

Maybe it is different when taught under saddle rather than in hand, but once bitten, twice shy, I won't be having any more to do with this system.'

Sorry for the slight thread derail, OP, I wish you well with your horse .

I can see why! I think the person who would be most annoyed is monsieur Karl himself as there is no such thing as jaw flexions.

There is gentle mobilisation of the jaw, you know the licking and chewing reflex but no flexion. There should be a “flexion” of the poll but even so that’s not the right word for it in English. This flexion is nothing by different to classical riding taught by any other classical trainer. The lifting of the hands is to apply a little bit of pressure on the corners of the lips, not the jawbone, so it really is a gentle methodology.

It’s worrying someone taught you to flex the jaw, I can imagine it’s painful for any horse to do that and something to actively avoid.