Sad end to a good month ;-(

[Armas]

This week I decided that Armas hind movement was not as it should be.
So booked him in to see the vet at the Cadrenoir.
The vet did some flexion tests hind movements then watched him walk trot and canter.
X-rays of the spine showed no issues. However ultrasound of the pelvis showed a problem in the Sacroiliac (SI) Joint two slight gaps I think. No sign of pain when it was palmated internally. A common problem apparently.
The diagnosis followed with two Injections left & right side of the back
I was told give him light work for the next few days walking and lunging. Then some light ridden work. However it was all in French and am not sure I understood every thing. Has any one had experience with SI injections ? How long do they last ? He said it was not degenerative and the treatment should be very effective.
Still in shock.

 

[Shysmum]

Oh god, just when things were looking so good - I'm sure a rest will help. I've had injections into my joints, but no idea about horses. So sorry to hear this,

 

[PandorasJar]

Nothing helpful but sorry to here this. Am glad its something common and treatable that is wrong though x

 

[Mongoose11]

Eeeeek! Sorry to hear this but also glad that you took notice of all of us that said he didn't look right in those early vids. I know you will do all you can and get him the best care possible.

I don't have any experience of this, hopefully someone will be along soon who can shed some positive light on the situation.

 

[Wagtail]

I have to admit, when I watched your last video of him that he looked short (from memory, I think it was right hind). This is the same as a horse at my yard, though not as bad. I have suspected SI for some time with this horse, but vet seemed fixated on hocks. However, the physio is now thinking the same as me. He will be going in for further tests soon. Yasandcrystal on here has a horse with SI issues.

 

[Shysmum]

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=557137

 

[blood_magik]

One of mine had SI injections about two years ago and he's had no issues since.
I lunged using side reins for ten minutes/day for ten days and then brought him back under saddle slowly (think it was over 10-14 days)

 

[Maisy]

I also watched the videos and sent a link to a friend of mine asking if she thought there was something slightly off!! Iirc it was the offside hind leg that just didn't quite move in sync with the rest of the body....

I hope he improves :-(

 

[Auslander]

He's in good company James - Alf is having SI joint injections in March! His hind suspensory issues are attributed to a sacroiliac problem, so it's good that you caught it in time, before it started affecting other structures. Alf prognosis isn't brilliant as he has a lifetime of hard, high level work behind him, and his suspensory problems were quite serious, so all I can do is keep him comfortable and stop him getting worse. You at least don't have related issues to make thing more complicated.

Joint injections will either have been hyaluronic acid (HA) or corticosteroids - HA is a component of joint fluid, and it relubricates the joint, replacing joint fluid that has been lost through wear and tear, or the steroids will have been used as anti-inflammatories - if my memory serves me correctly. If they are saying its not degenerative, I would imagine there is a flare up within the joint that they have treated with steroids. Look on it as an early warning sign , rather than something to get horribly upset over. Fingers crossed that he will be as right as rain in a very short time.

You really do need to think very carefully and take management advice re his workload. He needs to be worked correctly and appropriately to minimise the risks of doing long term damage to a joint which has had a grumble. Think slow, steady and lots of stretching, and consider regular physio to keep him comfortable and supple.

Chin up- could be worse.

 

[1stclassalan]

Joint injections will either have been hyaluronic acid (HA) or corticosteroids - HA is a component of joint fluid, and it relubricates the joint, replacing joint fluid that has been lost through wear and tear, or the steroids will have been used as anti-inflammatories -

That's what I was going to ask. If it was corticosteroids I can tell exactly what it does because I've had enough injected into me to kill a horse!

Whether horses or any other animal reacts the same of course will be subjective.

I felt the effects almost immediately - peculiar feeling ( half sneezy, half blocked ) nose, dryish throat and croakey voice - some of these wear off depending what I did and where I was ( indoors / out ) - the point of injury ( not necessarily near the site of injection ) felt less of a problem, swellings, irritations and bruising if present reduced but there was a kind of "steroid glow" and this grows till it encompasses the entire body before gradually reducing and fading away in say 48 hours to a week depending on the amount injected and where. It's not a miracle cure but it works for somethings but sadly not for long in my case.

 

[LaurenBay]

Fingers crossed he comes right again. His a lovely boy and I enjoy seeing your updates.

Perhaps the schooling everyday has taken its toll?

 

[Mongoose11]

Fingers crossed he comes right again. His a lovely boy and I enjoy seeing your updates.

Perhaps the schooling everyday has taken its toll?

Doubt it very much, Armas showed signs before the schooling started, he hasn't been doing any hammering around either so unlikely to have caused anything major.

 

[here_i_am]

We had the lot when one of our mares was diagnosed with an SI problem - steroid injections, physio, shockwave treatments, cartrophen injections...
The only thing that worked (after a year of the above) was sending her to a rehab yard to use their aqua treadmill for a month (similar to this http://www.fmbs.co.uk/activo-med-water-treadmill.html )She was worked on the treadmill in sidereins - lots & lots of long & low work. Nothing else. Im not sure of your boys' symptoms - our girl displayed bi-lateral hind limb lameness. Good luck with him. SI strains are a pain in the bum!

 

[Armas]

Thank you all for the positive words of reassurance.
I think that this is / was a long standing issue that came with Armas when I bought him. Unfortunately as a new owner its not something that I picked up so I blame my self for not spotting it sooner. However the vet at the Cadnoire is the vet to the French national team so I am secure in the knowledge that Armas has received the best diagnosis & treatment. I will be following up tomorrow with a call to find out what follow up treatment is necessary if any. What he did say that the infusion injection can only be done twice a year i think !
Its very hard when French is not your first language.

 

[justabob]

It is a shame that you continued with his very intensive training knowing that he might have a problem. ( sorry I am not a HHO fawner).

 

[Armas]

It is a shame that you continued with his very intensive training knowing that he might have a problem. ( sorry I am not a HHO fawner).

Thank you for the encouraging words. Just like all your posts you never have any thing positive to say.
Jealous perhaps ?

 

[Auslander]

It is a shame that you continued with his very intensive training knowing that he might have a problem. ( sorry I am not a HHO fawner).

Armas did say in the post directly above that he hadnt picked it up,and he wishes hed spotted it sooner. The important thing is that it was spotted, and has been dealt with swiftly.

Sacroiliac joint issues are often managed with work to build and strengthen the muscles and ligaments around the joint - so the intensive schooling may well have been a good thing actually

 

[justabob]

Thank you for the encouraging words. Just like all your posts you never have any thing positive to say.
Jealous perhaps ?

Not at all jealous, my interest is in racing. Perhaps I just find your posts about your horse and the amount of money you are throwing into your new found hobby...........well, rather vulgar.

 

[dominobrown]

Poor you

 

[SaharaS]

Not at all jealous, my interest is in racing. Perhaps I just find your posts about your horse and the amount of money you are throwing into your new found hobby...........well, rather vulgar.

...well... perhaps don't read his posts then?

 

[Armas]

Not at all jealous, my interest is in racing. Perhaps I just find your posts about your horse and the amount of money you are throwing into your new found hobby...........well, rather vulgar.

Vulgar that I want the best for my horse surely that is what every owner wants ? New found hobby interesting I have been riding on and of since I was a child.
I find you rather vulgar if you don't like my posts feel free not to read them.

 

[Marydoll]

Keep wanting and doing the best for your horse, i hope he makes a good recovery. Ignore the nasty comments, theres always folks who like to bring others down

 

[Goldenstar]

My friend ( a vet ) driving pony has had these injections he's back in work he's a hard working pony who does horse driving trials.
Armas you will need to track down a good physio for the future I would advise monthly sessions ongoing and he might need more than that at first.

 

[Hedgewitch13]

It is a shame that you continued with his very intensive training knowing that he might have a problem. ( sorry I am not a HHO fawner).

I'm not a fawner either but I certainly wouldn't make spiteful comments about someone's horse or what they spend on it!

Stay away from these posts if they irritate you that much.

Hope the jabs do the trick!

 

[Sussexbythesea]

These are some things you might find helpful and want to explore that I have used with my SI horse.

My horse was diagnosed with SI strain and almost kissing spine (very close spinal processes which often goes hand in hand with SI strain) at the age of 10 by Sue Dyson at the AHT around 7/8 years ago. He was given a guarded prognosis originally and some would have given up then.

Vet treatment
He was initially treated with steroids and shockwave therapy in his SI joint and between spinal processes. Since then he has had one more lot of steroids into his SI, between his spinal processes and in his hocks.

Rehab
It was followed by plenty of physio, pessoa work (although I don’t think this is that useful for him), raised poles etc.

Shoeing
Natural balance shoes to help with breakover. Has had wedged shoes on his hinds as a negative sole plane (pedal bone tilts backwards slightly) is common in horses with SI problems and is thought to contribute to tightness down the glutes pulling on the SI area. Need xrays of feet to check this. He now has hind shoes with a wider toe are that are designed for typical arena surfaces that are deep to help him push off in an arena. These are the worst surfaces for a SI horse.

Maintenance
Apart from the shoeing he has also had regular physio and I use a tens type machine on a regular basis to stimulate the muscles along his back and hind-quarters under advice of physio. Liquid Cortaflex and Buteless now he is older and getting a bit stiffer. I don’t ever give him long periods of rest as keeping good strong muscle tone is essential to keep the SI joints stable.

I've gone on to do unaffiliated dressage reasonably successfully up to Elementary and he has done a bit of everything - small hunter trials, sponsored rides, lots of hacking. Now at 18 he mainly hacks. I'm always looking for new ways to manage it but my boy has a happy and full life and I will continue to readjust my management as he ages and other issues arise.

Hope this helps and Good luck!

 

[Auslander]

Not at all jealous, my interest is in racing. Perhaps I just find your posts about your horse and the amount of money you are throwing into your new found hobby...........well, rather vulgar.

I've spent thousands on getting my horse right since I got him last ear, and I've talked about the process all over this forum. I guess that makes me vulgar too - right?

Armas and I do not always see eye to eye - harsh words have been exchanged, but I will put my hand on my heart and say that not once have I thought he was in it to talk in a vulgar fashion about how much money he was throwing at the horse. He is desperately proud of the horse, and enthusiastic about showing his progress. The same could be said about a lot of people on here, but you seem to have singled him out.

You are pretty unpleasant to people on here - not just Armas. Have a look at this - and a little think. In the grand scale of things, constant bitching only hurts the bitch-er...

 

[Armas]

Thank you all for the positive information you know who you are. Just want to say an especial thank you to Auslander.
I have spoken to the vet about the next steps. The few days just take him for a walk not ridden after that walk & trot on the lunge line. In two weeks commence ridden work softly treat him as a 5 year old regarding work to start.
The vet also said to see how he goes its a very common problem in horses.
The vet would like to see him in a year to give a follow up examination unless there is any further deterioration, but with correct work and rehabilitation to build up the week areas in the back he has a good prognosis.
I also asked the vet could the resent work we have been doing harmed Armas he did not think it would have. I am just glad that this has been picked up and treated.

 

[YasandCrystal]

I have a horse with chronic SI dysfunction. I like sussexbythesea have talked about him and his condition many times on this forum.
I got LOU for my horse and he was turned away after treatment for over a year. He is sound now and being brought into work.

My horse was injected but with his condition being chronic the injections were not expected to produce results. He had physio - she used a nerve stimulator to reawaken his dormant nerves and a Tens then to stimulate the underused muscles. I then sent him to a holistic vet who is an osteopath and she 'mobilised' his sacrum. He moved so much better when he returned from her. I then turned him away on her advice (she said 8 months) for over a year. He lives out 24/7 - I believe the constant movement is good for his SI. I feed him MSM and turmeric. He was given horsetail to help his ligaments after treatment for a few weeks. He built 4cm of gluteus muscle on his poor side within around a 6 week period under the physio and in hand rehab we carried out. This consisted of pessoa work and stepping over poles to reengage muscles and movement he had stopped doing.

SI problems are notoriously the hardest thing to spot. My horse flew through a 5 stage vetting. It took Newmarket a week to diagnose him. I just knew something was wrong because my horse was so aggressive - it had to be pain. At least with all your ridden work being 'engaged from behind' or striving for that - that is the best exercise for the SI - to build muscle around it to support it.
You may consider buying a microtherapy unit to help heal his ligaments like the Microvet or Arc equine unit. I have yet to use it on my WB with the SI issues (as he lives out), but used one on a mare following tendon surgery and she has healed amazingly. There are some threads on here about the Arc therapy unit and how good it is I have also bought a 'Back on Track' rug which I am very pleased with and maybe you could consider one of those or the quarter sheet to keep his loin area warmed during exercise and relax any tension. Good luck.

Oh and my horse is barefoot - interestingly his poor side hoof is smaller than the good side - my husband (farrier) says that means the SI problem very likely occurred as a 2 yr old as suggested by Sue Dyson at Newmarket as the hoof capsule growth was affrected with him not weightbearing or using his leg evenly.

 

[Bobbly]

We have had a SI problem horse here too, also with suspensory problems. He was treated by Sue Dyson of the Animal Health Trust, top woman in her field James. The horse was injected in his SI and part of his suggested rehab was long and low work on long lines and lunged. He was competing at Elementary level but his legs were more of a problem than his SI to be honest and he has now had to stop dressage.

 

[Amaranta]

I've spent thousands on getting my horse right since I got him last ear, and I've talked about the process all over this forum. I guess that makes me vulgar too - right?

Armas and I do not always see eye to eye - harsh words have been exchanged, but I will put my hand on my heart and say that not once have I thought he was in it to talk in a vulgar fashion about how much money he was throwing at the horse. He is desperately proud of the horse, and enthusiastic about showing his progress. The same could be said about a lot of people on here, but you seem to have singled him out.

You are pretty unpleasant to people on here - not just Armas. Have a look at this - and a little think. In the grand scale of things, constant bitching only hurts the bitch-er...

Could not agree more Auslander, I too have 'told it like it is' to Armas in the past, but I was never deliberately spiteful like Justabob seems to be.

James is doing the best he can by his horse, it is very clear that he loves and adores him, and like most of us is rightly proud of the very real progress that has been made. If you don't like the videos, please don't watch them. I stopped watching the initial videos because I did not like the way the horse was being trained then, I stopped commenting because I could find nothing positive to say - take a leaf Justabob.

Credit needs to be given where credit it due, this latest trainer is just brilliant, and for those who think that the intensive training has caused this problem, think again, this horse looked off from day 1, if you look at the very first video of him being tried out in Spain, it was apparent that there was a problem high up (he looked very wide behind and did not quite track through). James did have him vetted and the vet did not pick it up, which he should have done and James lacked the experience at the time to recognise the warning signs, I think it is fair to say that it is not a mistake he will make again and is now getting on with getting his horse right. Armas is very lucky to have an owner who cares for him so much.