sad musings on writing for dressage judges

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eva

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just to share my recent observations on writing, maybe someone will find it interesting, sorry if they are a little depressing. I won't mention which level or judge was it so nobody's upset.

I don't think they would ever admit it, but judges are not always very fair - by the end of the class some get more generous, some get more strict! also, sometimes (quite rarely though) they miss some movements completely... the marks that don't have any comment sometimes are those missed movement parts :( not always though :)

there are rumours going on that since BD has introduced new rules on qualifying for regionals (with % rather than wins), they have realised that there's going to be way too many people qualifying so they are trying to judge more strictly to reduce the number of people coming through. so if you got a low mark at affiliated, that may explain it a little.

also, I was shocked to find out the judges don't get paid?! I think it's pretty unfair. despite the points above, most of the time they are doing a very difficult job and trying hard to sustain people's confidence and help them become better...

that's all for today, folks :)
 
I've written for a lot of judges over the years and have found that 99.9% of them are totally fair and just interested in encouraging good riding and training. But judges are only mere humans and they are not robots and I'm sure if they have judged over 25 horses and are tired, hot/cold, thirsty/hungry then their marks may reflect this a tiny bit. And, very, very occasionally you may come across a judge who is totally starstruck (although in all my 30 years of writing I have only met one). But I must say the majority of judges do their best to ensure fairness in their results.
 
I wrote for a judge at affiliated and horse trials last year and she got paid £50 for 1/2 a days judging. Not sure how typical this is though, probably varies from one competition to another.
 
About payment - I don't think they are suppposed to get paid, but it may be different for horse trials. They get paid mileage, and usually get presents.

I would encourage anyone to do this as it is a great way to learn what the judge is looking for. The last time I wrote I had a whale of a time as the judge was a complete hoot! But she was also very fair and consistent and made a point of giving the struggling riders constructive criticism.
 
Judges do not get paid for BE or BD. They only get mileage/expenses.

I have written for judges and always found them to be fair. Again they are only human so watching 30 horses for 5 minutes doing an average of 14 movements is a lot of work!
 
Not only do they not get paid, apparently they aren't supposed to get paid because that somehow sullies their intentions. ;) The idea is that people will judge because they love the sport/discipline and because they feel honoured to be asked, not for remuneration. I think there is also the idea that "professionals" - people who are paid for their horsey time - should not be judging as they are active in other areas of the industry.

Interestingly, it's the exact opposite where I'm from - the idea is you pay judges so that you don't just get people who are so keen to push their own opinions that they're willing to be out of pocket to do so. ;) And that if you pay people then you can set more limits on their behaviour and they will feel the pinch if they don't measure up and don't get asked back. It's not an honour, it's a job.

The system here was a bit of a shock to me after I'd already agreed to do some judging here. :D

I think there ARE partisan judges, although not many and they aren't confined to any particular level. I once wrote for a judge at an FEI competition who kept asking me who the riders trained with! :eek: I finally had to ask her to stop asking me. To be fair, though, the show management arranged the rings to make sure she was the first judge finished and told her they would not be using her again.

I would also say I've been on the credit and debit sides of "ring blindness". It happens. I dare say, I've probably done it myself. But the fact is shows need judges and no one is perfect. Most of the judges I know love horses, love judging and want the best horse and rider to win on the day, end of story.

Over all, I'd say it works out. As I'm fond of saying, at the end of your life you have the right number of ribbons, you just don't always have them for exactly the right things. ;)
 
totally agree with you TS, it's bizarre that judges are not paid, and ring blindness can totally work in people's favour! generally, I get the impression that most judges are pretty generous with their marks here. that's perhaps why Billy Elliott gets around 60% in Holland - could it be that their idea of "satisfactory" is our idea of "very good"?
 
I was dressage scoring recently and we had to send several sheets back to the judges as they had missed scoring a movement :eek: though really a good writer should have picked that up! Surprisingly they all came back with 6s!!

I also did an elementary test recently where I came down CL halted and saluted and noticed judge was not looking at all but still writing up previous test (despite having rung the bell for me to start :rolleyes:) so I just stood there and waited till she noticed :D
 
that's what I'm talking about, DHB! isn't it shocking :( I mean, on the one hand, people come all the way, prepare for a test for ages and ages, and then this happens. But on the other hand, what would you expect from someone who's not even getting paid really? I know one should always do a good job no matter what they're paid, but really, I think if there would be payment, there would be healthy competition and perhaps you wouldn't let yourself miss a movement?
 
I've done a fair bit of writing for BD now. In all honesty I think most judges are as fair as humans can be.

The marks are used different. What one judge gives an 8 the other will only give a 6. Some use the entire range, some only use 4, 6 and 7. But generally these are consistent throughout the test so, whilst it can be difficult to plot your progress percentage/mark wise, the results are a representation of the class.

The main problem I've noticed is preference for horse type, though even this only tends to come out when two horses are of a very similar standard. I remember writing for two novice tests on the same day with a different judge for each test. There was one horse who did both. The first judge slated it, the second thought it was the best of the entire day and I didn't see much difference between the two tests. But, whenever an m&m comes into the ring my heart melts instantly as I love them. I think this is a part of being human; you can't turn off your preferences at the flick of a switch. It's the luck of the draw.

I've only had a couple of cases of a judge missing a mark - usually it happens when a rider has had a major problem, and normally on movements that are quick in succession. More often than not the judge acknowledges 'I'll come back to that'. And if they do miss something the writers should highlight this to the judge immediatly the test finishes so they can correct it properly.
 
eva said:
just to share my recent observations on writing, maybe someone will find it interesting, sorry if they are a little depressing. I won't mention which level or judge was it so nobody's upset.

I don't think they would ever admit it, but judges are not always very fair - by the end of the class some get more generous, some get more strict! also, sometimes (quite rarely though) they miss some movements completely... the marks that don't have any comment sometimes are those missed movement parts :( not always though :)

there are rumours going on that since BD has introduced new rules on qualifying for regionals (with % rather than wins), they have realised that there's going to be way too many people qualifying so they are trying to judge more strictly to reduce the number of people coming through. so if you got a low mark at affiliated, that may explain it a little.

also, I was shocked to find out the judges don't get paid?! I think it's pretty unfair. despite the points above, most of the time they are doing a very difficult job and trying hard to sustain people's confidence and help them become better...

that's all for today, folks :)
Click to expand...

Some are good some not so - bad when you have to remind the judge that Level 1 dressage have all progressive transisions - she was about to mark someone down. Ran into canter not on the bit - all at the lowest level. Horses weren't running into canter and were accepting the bridle just as required for the level.

We have a winter series near me where I write most weekends for the duration of the winter. One judge I refuse to write for as she behaved most unproffesionall discussing another competitor with a soon to ride competitor. I was so embarresed. Same one always adds 'a little' after every comment - drives me insane.

Generally our judges do get paid, and writers too, some organisers pay well, some not so well though. Wrote from 7:30am to 3:00pm in the hottest weather, sitting in a very nice new car at Horse of the Year, no pay! The entry fees were in the $100's per rider and they didn't even cover expenses. Won't be writing for them again next year.

All in all I really enjoy writing wrote on Saturday for 2 day 2* Horse Trial and caught up with good friends and met some new ones. I've learnt a lot and usually get put with really experienced judges so get to learn lots. I practise judging and almost always get the same mark as the judge has awarded. I keep being asked to do my judges course but I do really enjoy the writing.
 
Personally, I think the payment thing will change over time. And I think judges generally deserve credit for putting in a lot of time and effort for not much reward. And a lot of them are very good. That said, some of the things you mention aren't really news. We have all had a "5" with no commentary which we suspect might be because the judge was not looking, judges who dont like a particular horse etc. You might be interested in the research that Wayne Channon did which whilst at the top end of the sport is quite interesting, though not very surprising. Most judges mark between 2 and 8 not 0 and 10, if you go first it tends to count against you being two of the findings. Another area is the lack of guidance given to judges on how to score complex movements such as the line of 4time and 3time changes in the PSG test - ie how much should you knock off for a late change/no change/not very nice changes.
 
I too have done a fair bit of writing inc PSG and freestyle PSG

Most of ours get 'expenses' of £40 to £60 for half a day. None of them including the ones that live less than 10 miles away and judge 2 W&T tests get less than £40

I think it shows the difference in humans in general as the difference between judges can be huge. A lot more marks are missed in freestyle at all levels. One advanced FS I could have marked better myself as I recogonised attempts at movement the judge didn't:rolleyes:
However with another judging the same level marked fantastically and no way could I have done that.

At lower levels certain judges are so busy chatting to me they just say oh give a 7, as it means you don't have to bother with a comment, no way was it worth a 7 compared to the last competitors 6 :eek: Just depends on where judge was in her conversation.

It is also who you know. One competitor (a friend of mine) backs horses for a living and regularly tells the judge horse has only been under saddle 6 wks when I know full well. this one is her own (naughty) horse and has been doing it 12 months or more. Needless to say judge is well impressed!

A lot of the time they will even ask whether I thought it was a 6 or 7 (fair enough its a second opinion) I usually base my thoughts on what they gave the last few horses.

Some will start out marking harsh and ease up, some the other way around

Only the odd one or two do I find REALLY consistent and too be honest they are usually the higher level judges who aren't just swayed with the
type of horse (bangs head)

I have even been known to influence certain judges who don't like a certain type of horse by saying oh that was better than the last horse :) (it works)

Also be aware that some judges if not still writing will be hugely influenced BEFORE you even enter the arena. They are only human and if you go around the outside see sawing on the reins, or using the whip a lot, its a bad start

Over all I think the level of judging is acceptable but disappointing
 
The comments section doesn't have to be filled in for every movement as the marks are supposed to reflect what the judge saw & felt about the movements carried out.

If no comment - look at the mark analasis at the top of the test and go from there. The judge is not there to give a lesson on every part of a movement.

Unless you are getting 10's for every movement then your horse needs to be worked on to get better marks.
 
well Evelyn while it's true that comments don't have to be filled, sometimes it means that there's no justification for such a mark. not always. maybe in NZ the judging standards are different, perhaps also because generally as you say judges are paid. I think if you are paid for a job you can't easily justify missing a part of the test, you are under certain obligation to perform your job well if you know what I mean.
I don't want to slay the judges, I think most of them are doing a very good job, but some aren't... I guess the morale of the story is film your test and be your own judge... and don't take the marks too seriously :)
 
I've only written a couple of times.

The first time I didn't enjoy..... as the judge was a bit sharp and unfriendly.

But the 2nd was for a lovely Listed judge. Who explained that I was to fill in any wording first and then the mark, and that was my cue to move onto the next line.

She marked fairly.... put encouraging comments somewhere on everyones' sheet, so it wasn't all negativity which a lot of my own score sheets are filled with!

And at the start, gave me a little scrap of paper with the spelling for 'rhythm' as she said most writers struggled with that word!!!!

But overall, she didn't get me to write masses of comments, so I had a chance to watch bits of each test and understand the reasoning behind some of the marks she gave.... and where a couple of horses came in looking unlevel, she watched them at all gaits before deciding that they weren't unsound, just tight/excited/unrhythmic!!! (Wish she'd spelled that word as I'm sure it's not correct!!)
 
i bet its really hard being a judge.... especially at the lowest levels...if you go to a local RC prelim there is some pretty average riding (i include myself in this before anyone gets offended :p) and it must be so hard to be positive all of the time! having said that i DO like it when judges use marks other than 6s and 7s.... (admittedly i prefer 8s but i can handle 5s! :rolleyes:) because it does make you feel that they are watching. really bugs me when you get no comments...i know there is the guidance at the top of the sheet but i do like to know what made it a 7 rather than a 6 or whatever...
i too have written for judges who have been...erm...maybe not as fair as they could have been in their judging (e.g. being 'wowed' by the flashy but horrendously overbent WB!)...but pleased to say that has been very infrequently.... :)
 
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