Saddle evading?

[goussberry]

Hi all

So I've had my 7yo ISH for about 6/7 months now, and for as long as I can remember he will always try to get away from me when I try to tack him up - particularly badly with his saddle. He doesn't kick out or bite or anything he'll just move to the other side of the stable to get away from it. Once it's on him he's fine, but I was just wondering why he might be trying to evade the saddle?

I don't know if his age/breed would come into it, and I'm not sure what he's previous owners did with him before me. I've not had his back checked because I don't want to be an annoyance if it's just him being cheeky about being saddled up.

Any tips/advice on how to help him?

 

[Illusion100]

Have you had his back checked?

 

[goussberry]

Have you had his back checked?

Not yet, I just wanted to check on here what people thought first before calling the vet out

 

[Illusion100]

It appears you horse is expressing discomfort on sight of the saddle, whether this is a learned behaviour (doubt that), a saddle fitting issue or a physical issue would be hard to say.

Once the saddle is on, your horse appears stoic and will carry on.

The choice of going down a vet/saddler/experienced trainer route would be your choice.

The fact you haven't (as yet!) expressed your horse has been bucking/rearing under saddle makes me lean towards back weakness/sore spots/carriage issues and saddle fit.

Then again, I got lost on my way home.....so.....

 

[vmac66]

I have an ex riding school horse who was worked with a bad back. He is ok now after much physio but still does not like his saddle , he is slowly getting better with it .

 

[SarahWeston]

I completely agree with Illusion100. It's so important to believe your horse when he is trying to tell you something. I'd have his back checked and I'd have the fit of his saddle checked.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Agree with the above its a sign your saddle is causing him discomfort, and now may have caused him to have a sore back, I have a horse that has muscle wastage from a saddle that was too narrow after two saddle fitters telling me it was fine, I knew something was not quite right ash he would put his ears flat back on sight of the saddle, after a new saddle and some re medial fitting he no longer does it.

 

[ponydi]

Sounds like discomfort. When you put the saddle on do you put it on his back gently, slide it into place and not girth up tightly straight away?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Listen to the horse!

He is telling you either
a) he doesn't like the way that you put the saddle on
b) his saddle is uncomfortable, either because of a bad back, or poor saddle fit.

 

[goussberry]

I

It appears you horse is expressing discomfort on sight of the saddle, whether this is a learned behaviour (doubt that), a saddle fitting issue or a physical issue would be hard to say.

Once the saddle is on, your horse appears stoic and will carry on.

The choice of going down a vet/saddler/experienced trainer route would be your choice.

The fact you haven't (as yet!) expressed your horse has been bucking/rearing under saddle makes me lean towards back weakness/sore spots/carriage issues and saddle fit.

Then again, I got lost on my way home.....so.....

Perfect, thank you so much. That's really helpful. He doesn't act up under the saddle, so I suspected it was something to do with soreness.

Sorry if you don't know the answer to this, but would you suggest I get a vet or a saddler out to see him?

 

[goussberry]

I completely agree with Illusion100. It's so important to believe your horse when he is trying to tell you something. I'd have his back checked and I'd have the fit of his saddle checked.

Thank you I will make sure to do both as soon as I can

 

[goussberry]

Sounds like discomfort. When you put the saddle on do you put it on his back gently, slide it into place and not girth up tightly straight away?

Hey I put it on gently and slide it into place, I leave it loose until I have to ride. He's on the riding school so I'm not sure what others do with him when they tack him up so that might be part of the problem

 

[goussberry]

Agree with the above its a sign your saddle is causing him discomfort, and now may have caused him to have a sore back, I have a horse that has muscle wastage from a saddle that was too narrow after two saddle fitters telling me it was fine, I knew something was not quite right ash he would put his ears flat back on sight of the saddle, after a new saddle and some re medial fitting he no longer does it.

I'll try and post s photo on here later, but I think he does have some muscle wastage (not 100% sure though!)

 

[sandi_84]

It could just be a bit of cheekiness but to be absolutely sure you will need to get a properly qualified saddler out to see your horse, ask around and find recommendations either here (I'm sure if you say what are in the country you are someone will know someone) or on your yard.

Depending on what the saddler says and depending on how your saddle fits you might need to talk to your vet about getting a horse physiotherapist out, again I would ask for recommendations

Is the horse yours or are you sharing with someone or is it one of the riding school's horses?

I hope you manage to get to the bottom of it though!

 

[eggs]

My mare expressed very definite likes and dislikes with her saddles. Both had been fitted to her and looked similar in as much as both were black. If I brought one of them out of the tack room she would flash her ears back and move away. If I brought the other out she just stood there quietly. In theory both saddles fitted her (she didn't have an issue with her back). Sold the saddle she didn't like

 

[goussberry]

It could just be a bit of cheekiness but to be absolutely sure you will need to get a properly qualified saddler out to see your horse, ask around and find recommendations either here (I'm sure if you say what are in the country you are someone will know someone) or on your yard.

Depending on what the saddler says and depending on how your saddle fits you might need to talk to your vet about getting a horse physiotherapist out, again I would ask for recommendations

Is the horse yours or are you sharing with someone or is it one of the riding school's horses?

I hope you manage to get to the bottom of it though!

Fab, I will get him checked out ASAP He is mine,but I have him on working livery so he gets used/tacked up by the riding school a 4/5 times a week and I ride him the rest of the time! Thank you

Does anyone happen know any good saddlers in/around the Manchester area?

 

[Joanne_Stockport]

Fab, I will get him checked out ASAP He is mine,but I have him on working livery so he gets used/tacked up by the riding school a 4/5 times a week and I ride him the rest of the time! Thank you

Does anyone happen know any good saddlers in/around the Manchester area?

I would recommend Crewe saddlery (they have qualified saddle fitters).
I have mine checked every six months and they have done a good job.

 

[Deseado]

Some horses are just grumpy and workshy, but expressing dislike of the saddle would be an obvious indicator that something is causing him discomfort. Rule that out first.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Hey I put it on gently and slide it into place, I leave it loose until I have to ride. He's on the riding school so I'm not sure what others do with him when they tack him up so that might be part of the problem

That might well be the source of your problem. I have bought horses which have been tacked up by multiple people and have often found that they take a while to learn to trust that I will be careful and considerate when tacking up, especially when bigger horses have been tacked up by fairly short people. Teenagers can be quite impatient with horses who do not stand perfectly still. I would talk to YO in the first instance.

 

[Brightbay]

Two things have already been mentioned: (a) the horse is uncomfortable or in pain and being tacked up with this saddle makes it worse, and (b) the horse finds something about the way he's being tacked up unpleasant or uncomfortable (horses with e.g. gastric ulcers, sore pectoral muscles, bloated bellies due to too much grass can all find being tacked up unpleasant regardless of the saddle or how gently the process is being done). In addition, you don't know how he's being handled when you're not there.

There's a third point as well - horses who have not been properly accustomed to being tacked up during their training often never get used to the process and always find it worrying - for example, I have seen this in a horse who was backed by being saddled up and then allowed to buck on a lunge line until he "got used to the feeling". Years later, he was still very anxious about the process of being tacked up and mounted although could be ridden.

In terms of process, your first port of call should be a vet. Physios and other body workers should only treat your horse on "vet referral" - i.e. the vet is responsible for all people working in a therapeutic sense with a horse and so they should be aware of the horse's physical state before anybody else works with them. In addition, you need to speak to the vet first, because if the horse is in pain, it is not necessarily related to the saddle It may be (as mentioned above) something like sore pectorals or a digestive upset - the second could cause a horse to be wary of a saddle but is not something a body worker can treat
Once the vet has seen the horse, and if they suspect something musculoskeletal, the next port of call would be e.g. an equine physiotherapist.

The physio or body worker will help you work out if there is indeed muscular issues and whether these seem to have come about as a result of the saddle. They can also give you things to do to help improve the horse's soreness or discomfort - and if they suspect the saddle, they will suggest you do not use that saddle until it has been checked by a qualified saddle fitter.

Your last consultation (although these can overlap in time ) would be the saddle fitter - as there's no point getting them out to fit a saddle to a sore horse - since you need to ride the horse during a saddle fitting, it won't be clear how well the saddle is working for your horse if he's still sore during the fitting.

Does that all make sense in terms of process? No harm to start the process with a bit of observation yourself How does the horse react to being groomed along their back or on their flanks? How are they to do up rug surcingles? If you run your hand along the horse's back, do they twitch or dip their back at all? If you run your hands along the horse's back from the withers, are there any noticeable lumps or dips? Any hotspots? It's a big learning process, best approached systematically

Once everything is checked, and if the horse is still unhappy, you can begin to work with them to improve how they feel about being saddled. A horse's brain doesn't try to work out clever ways of bafflig humans - they just react to situations based on genuine feelings about those situations, and we need to take those feelings into account at face value, rather than assuming the horse is formulating some kind of complex plot to avoid being ridden

 

[Tiddlypom]

What standard of rider uses him when the RS use him? Maybe he is fed up with the RS work.

 

[SadKen]

My girl was fine under saddle for a long time when ridden, but started to object to the tack going on by nibbling her lead rein and moving away from me.

My saddle was initially checked by a fitter and found to be fine, but the fitter that came at the weekend pointed out that it was too long and too narrow (obvious now I've been shown). I think if the horse is a genuine sort they will try and work through discomfort, so being OK under saddle does not necessarily mean they are OK to work. My suspicion would be the saddle.

I had Steph from Freedom Saddlery, and Wetreins Equine came and fixed my girl's (very, very) sore back. Both were fantastic.

 

[goussberry]

Two things have already been mentioned: (a) the horse is uncomfortable or in pain and being tacked up with this saddle makes it worse, and (b) the horse finds something about the way he's being tacked up unpleasant or uncomfortable (horses with e.g. gastric ulcers, sore pectoral muscles, bloated bellies due to too much grass can all find being tacked up unpleasant regardless of the saddle or how gently the process is being done). In addition, you don't know how he's being handled when you're not there.

There's a third point as well - horses who have not been properly accustomed to being tacked up during their training often never get used to the process and always find it worrying - for example, I have seen this in a horse who was backed by being saddled up and then allowed to buck on a lunge line until he "got used to the feeling". Years later, he was still very anxious about the process of being tacked up and mounted although could be ridden.

In terms of process, your first port of call should be a vet. Physios and other body workers should only treat your horse on "vet referral" - i.e. the vet is responsible for all people working in a therapeutic sense with a horse and so they should be aware of the horse's physical state before anybody else works with them. In addition, you need to speak to the vet first, because if the horse is in pain, it is not necessarily related to the saddle It may be (as mentioned above) something like sore pectorals or a digestive upset - the second could cause a horse to be wary of a saddle but is not something a body worker can treat
Once the vet has seen the horse, and if they suspect something musculoskeletal, the next port of call would be e.g. an equine physiotherapist.

The physio or body worker will help you work out if there is indeed muscular issues and whether these seem to have come about as a result of the saddle. They can also give you things to do to help improve the horse's soreness or discomfort - and if they suspect the saddle, they will suggest you do not use that saddle until it has been checked by a qualified saddle fitter.

Your last consultation (although these can overlap in time ) would be the saddle fitter - as there's no point getting them out to fit a saddle to a sore horse - since you need to ride the horse during a saddle fitting, it won't be clear how well the saddle is working for your horse if he's still sore during the fitting.

Does that all make sense in terms of process? No harm to start the process with a bit of observation yourself How does the horse react to being groomed along their back or on their flanks? How are they to do up rug surcingles? If you run your hand along the horse's back, do they twitch or dip their back at all? If you run your hands along the horse's back from the withers, are there any noticeable lumps or dips? Any hotspots? It's a big learning process, best approached systematically

Once everything is checked, and if the horse is still unhappy, you can begin to work with them to improve how they feel about being saddled. A horse's brain doesn't try to work out clever ways of bafflig humans - they just react to situations based on genuine feelings about those situations, and we need to take those feelings into account at face value, rather than assuming the horse is formulating some kind of complex plot to avoid being ridden

You are a savior everyone's advice has been very helpful but this is also very clear, thank you!

You see the probelm is there's a lot I don't know about how he's been backed etc because this was all done in Ireland, and I bought him after he was in Manchester for about a year so I don't know his full history.

In terms of his reaction to bein groomed along their backs, he'll twitch as if a fly had landed on him but settle down after teh second stroke or so but he won't be nasty with me, he's a very sweet natured boy. There's a dip in his withers (photo to follow) which I suspect is muscle atrophy. He's good with his rug surcingles, I've never had a problem there and he's not girthy so I'm not sure it's a belly related problem.

He has a couple of bug/midge bites from the spring/summer bugs but he's been this way since November (when I bought him).

If everything is checked and it turns out to be fine, how would you suggest working with him to prove how he feels about being saddled? Hehe no he's too much if a thicko baby to be formulating any kind of plot

I just want what's best for him, he's very patient under the saddle so if he his sore he doesn't express it when I ride

 

[goussberry]

What standard of rider uses him when the RS use him? Maybe he is fed up with the RS work.

They told me high inter/advanced riders, but he's quiet so I'm not surprised if he's used in novice "pony kick" type lessons. He seems willing when I ride him, but i dont know if that's a reflection of how he works in the RS, if you get me?

 

[goussberry]

My girl was fine under saddle for a long time when ridden, but started to object to the tack going on by nibbling her lead rein and moving away from me.

My saddle was initially checked by a fitter and found to be fine, but the fitter that came at the weekend pointed out that it was too long and too narrow (obvious now I've been shown). I think if the horse is a genuine sort they will try and work through discomfort, so being OK under saddle does not necessarily mean they are OK to work. My suspicion would be the saddle.

I had Steph from Freedom Saddlery, and Wetreins Equine came and fixed my girl's (very, very) sore back. Both were fantastic.

The boldened bit my concern too, if he shouldn't be ridden then I'll take him off RS asap!

fab thank you for those names, I'll look them up following vet checks etc

 

[Barnacle]

I second what Brightbay has said concerning the order of things you should get checked/done.

I have had a few cases like yours and so far only one turned out to be caused by current discomfort and was instantly fixed by a better-fitting saddle. The others, however, have all been behavioural. This is usually because of a previous bad experience or past pain or may be just a lack of training. Here is one approach I would recommend if that turns out to be the case but keep in mind that it may be a difficult thing to maintain if other people tack up as well and particularly if they are rough: http://intheequinemind.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/when-your-horse-has-other-ideas-tacking.html

 

[PorkChop]

Sorry to hijack - but stupid question alert!!

Is it possible to use an ill fitting saddle and for the horse to get no pain/sore areas from it?

 

[Pinkvboots]

I'll try and post s photo on here later, but I think he does have some muscle wastage (not 100% sure though!)

Muscle wastage is often seen behind the shoulder either side of the wither and is caused by a saddle that is too narrow it's quite a common problem.

 

[spike123]

Sorry to hijack - but stupid question alert!!

Is it possible to use an ill fitting saddle and for the horse to get no pain/sore areas from it?

I would think that highly unlikely unless the horses nerve endings had died off and so showed no pain reaction.

Going back to the original poster another possibility is that he has been on a busy yard and rushed with tacking up etc. I had an ISH gelding who hated being saddled. He had no back issues and his saddle was properly fitted to him but he had been a competition horse and the saddler felt that was the cause of his issues. He was always grumpy and if im honest every ISH i've ever known has been the same way

 

[Barnacle]

Sorry to hijack - but stupid question alert!!

Is it possible to use an ill fitting saddle and for the horse to get no pain/sore areas from it?

Yes it is... Sores/pain are caused when the saddle either presses down in the wrong places (spine say) or if the weight isn't distributed adequately. But you can have a less than ideal saddle that does not put pressure on the wrong spots and distributes the weight evenly enough to not cause discomfort. It just won't be as good as the ideal in doing so and may impede movement a bit or mean the horse doesn't build muscle as effectively or carries the rider less well etc.

A good illustration, by the way, is that you can ride most horses in a treeless saddle without causing them sores even though your weight is not as efficiently distributed in one.