Saddle fit advice for hard to fit horse!

[musk]

Hi,

I am currently having saddle fit issues with my daughter's horse that we have now owned for a year and have found him hard to fit since the very start.
Everything we try seems to interfere with his shoulder and affect his way of going.
When we first bought him we went through 2 unsuitable saddles in a few months and thought we had finally landed on a saddle in February this year as he seemed happier and his way of going improved -however he has put on condition and some topline since then and despite trying wider gullets and although the saddle 'looks' like a nice fit the points of the gullet are causing a pinch point on his shoulder.
I had a lovely saddle fitter out this week and we are trialling a saddle that has a much shorter gullet bar (sorry if I am using the wrong terminology). so the points are not getting in the way of his shoulder.
Unfortunately my daughter couldn't be there for the actual fitting so I had given the horse a quick ride in the saddle and we are trying the saddle this week.
My daughter has now ridden in the saddle twice -the first time she rode in it the horse was incredibly happy and my daughter loved jumping in it, it gave her a lot of stability etc however she felt a little unbalanced on the flat and felt the saddle was too low at the front and causing her to lose balance. I sent photos and videos to the saddle fitter to ask for her advice and she said we had placed the saddle too far back and that was what was causing the saddle to be too low at the front. My daughter then rode in the saddle again and the horse was clearly unhappy -didn't want to move forward and we felt it was interfering with his shoulder again.

I have again sent photos and videos to the saddle fitter but in the meantime I just wondered what people might think on here? Would it do any harm to the horse to have the saddle sitting further back if he is happy with it in that position and add a mattes pad in front to raise the front a little or is this a big no? We can get the saddle in a 1/2 inch shorter and my daughter should still fit and hopefully that woudl give us a bit of wiggle room for having the sadle set further back but just don't know if I am being silly -fitter was against adding the pad in but that was before she knew of horse being unhappy with saddle placed further forward.

Also happy to look at girthing etc if this is the problem. I am going to be changing to a more curved girth to allow his leg/shoulder more movement anyway so suggestions for girths too would be great.

I have some photos I can attach but it is saying the files are too large.

 

[ponynutz]

We bought a Thoroughgood and got it slightly altered and tailored to pony then change the gullet every now and again when the saddler comes out.

There are probably easier ways though.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I had this hassle for a long time. My boy has huge shoulders and great topline and it always seemed to
Impinge at the scapula. I finally found that throwgood t4 and the ideal deal are the only saddles cut back enough to allow room.
You need to screenshot your piccies and edit them slightly for them to attach

 

[Gloi]

I have a reactor panel saddle for mine and it has solved the problems with the shoulders. I had a similar sort, a Trapezius for my previous one and that was good too.

 

[Red-1]

I have a Stride Free saddle for this reason. Fitted by Plateau Holistic Equine. Claire took the time to find what was right for us both. She then recommends a 3 monthly check, especially with a younger one like mine.

The Stride Free ones are quite adjustable and I sincerely hope it will stay with him!

Saddle trees explained with Peter Horobin. Benefits of the StrideFree tree. - YouTube

 

[musk]

I have taken a snip of the photos-what sort of editing do I now need to do for them to attach?

 

[sbloom]

I have taken a snip of the photos-what sort of editing do I now need to do for them to attach?

Open them in a basic photo editing app and crop or resize as appropriate. I do all mine online and use just the normal Windows picture editor, the default and what it uses when I open a photo.

It's impossible to say what you should do, the photos may help. Please ignore recommendations for brands for now, it's not what you're asking for for starters - it's what's worked for other people but they are generic recommendations. A curved girth might be needed, but if the saddle doesn't move forwards and the horse moves freely then there's no need. If you can find where the tree points are inside the velcro under the knee blocks, the front edge of them should be 2" behind the shoulder blade.

Fit for the rider is really important, rebalancing as you need to is likely to be a good idea for the horse too if it works for the rider (and vice versa, saddles usually have an optimum balance for both horse and rider, though there is some leeway). Fit for the rider also means that simply going down 1/2" may not work, and might not fit the horse as well.

Shoulder freedom comes mainly from the tree shape, and of course keeping the saddle back off the shoulder, it is much less about the shape of the panel at the front, the flap cut etc.

I can comment more (saddle fitter of 14 years) once you have photos up.

 

[musk]

Ok so finally managed to figure this out!
This is the position advised by the saddle fitter and then after she had ridden with saddle in this position -horse was very unhappy with saddle like this Let me amend the photos of how I had it at first and how the horse liked it but it sat low in front)

 

[musk]

I can get better photos tonight but horse really like saddle sat in this position and it gave him freedom to move -what I would like to try is just a good quality riser on the front.
I have tried Kent and Masters and Fairfax saddles (both saddles previously fitted to him) but the ends of the gullets came too low and pinched his shoulder even though from viewing only they looked a great fit.
Saddle in these photos is an Ideal Patriot (sorry about daughter's hand!!!)

Sorry also meant to say thank you for all the replies so far!

 

[Barton Bounty]

Firstly thats a jump saddle and It is always more forward than a gp or a vsd , no wonder its not fitting, ill show you the ideal deal ?

 

[Fieldlife]

the first photo (no rider) looks low behind to me? If you look at the balance, all the riders weight would be at the back of the saddle which is lowest point?

 

[Fieldlife]

Firstly thats a jump saddle and It is always more forward than a gp or a vsd , no wonder its not fitting, ill show you the ideal deal ?

Confused a jump saddle can fit same as any other saddle can fit? But you wouldnt place a jump saddle further back behind shoulder, like you can a dressage saddle. .

But I think you would expect a jump saddle to be fitted partly over the shoulder? And then the flaps are normally not part of the main tree, so dont pinch shoulder. Flaps can kind of float over shoulder.

 

[Barton Bounty]

First one is the thorowgood and second is the ideal deal

 

[Barton Bounty]

Confused a jump saddle can fit same as any other saddle can fit? But you wouldnt place a jump saddle further back behind shoulder, like you can a dressage saddle. .

But I think you would expect a jump saddle to be fitted partly over the shoulder? And then the flaps are normally not part of the main tree, so dont pinch shoulder. Flaps can kind of float over shoulder.

It is also much more forward cut and impinges the shoulder ??‍Thats what a lot of horses dont like ?

 

[Barton Bounty]

View attachment 98714
I can get better photos tonight but horse really like saddle sat in this position and it gave him freedom to move -what I would like to try is just a good quality riser on the front.
I have tried Kent and Masters and Fairfax saddles (both saddles previously fitted to him) but the ends of the gullets came too low and pinched his shoulder even though from viewing only they looked a great fit.
Saddle in these photos is an Ideal Patriot (sorry about daughter's hand!!!)

Sorry also meant to say thank you for all the replies so far!

It is a lovely saddle but I would try a different cut, the flaps tend to be much more forward and a lot of horses dont like that! Speaking of experience of 3 saddle fitters finally trying to fit my horse, you can get the flaps altered ?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

It doesn't look level in the first picture it's down at the back which can sometimes indicate that it's too narrow in front.

What width is the saddle?

 

[Red-1]

It's impossible to say what you should do, the photos may help. Please ignore recommendations for brands for now, it's not what you're asking for for starters - it's what's worked for other people but they are generic recommendations.

.......

Shoulder freedom comes mainly from the tree shape, and of course keeping the saddle back off the shoulder, it is much less about the shape of the panel at the front, the flap cut etc.

I can comment more (saddle fitter of 14 years) once you have photos up.

Erm, the one I recommended is a different shaped tree, especially to prevent impinging on the shoulder. I didn't recommend it as a fashion accessory! Of course, it may or may not suit this particular horse, but OP asked for recommendations for a horse who does not like shoulder impingement...

 

[sbloom]

Erm, the one I recommended is a different shaped tree, especially to prevent impinging on the shoulder. I didn't recommend it as a fashion accessory! Of course, it may or may not suit this particular horse, but OP asked for recommendations for a horse who does not like shoulder impingement...

They asked for advice on what to do, not what saddle to try, hence I said ignore FOR NOW. Your saddle was fitted by a friend/colleague so not dissing it, not remotely, but suggestions for a different saddle, based on the information given, aren't really appropriate. It can just get confusing having a random different brands and models thrown at you when you're asking about saddle placement, balance and girths. I didn't mean to trash anyone making the suggestion, but it's not helpful at this point.

The second photo is much better, it's not massively low in front but I would work with rider preference, if it feels better lifted with, say, a sheepskin pad, then that could be ideal. However to make that judgement I would ideally want to see the tree points and how they lay against the ribcage (see the photos guide for saddle adjustment on ahsaddles.com, it's a tricky photo to get, get well in against the neck) to be sure it's not too narrow, but the balance is better when you have it back in the right place. You would also need to check it's not bridging, sometimes adding a pad, especially if it's a little narrow in angle at the front (unlikely as it's too low) can cause a lack of contact under the middle of the saddle.

Check the tree point placement as I wrote above and it's not that hard to find the back rib, lower down, track it up diagonally, and see if it feels like the weightbearing area is wholly on the back rib. The back rib disappears under the big back muscle, so you have to extrapolate the line. Going down 1/2" may not be a bad idea if the rider still sits well in it as being in front of the rib, in a "mid-rear balance" saddle as this is (ie the rider sits in the middle/back of the seat) can be better for the horse.

The flaps may not be an issue at all, horses don't often object to them, though they can, on large uneven shoulders, large compared to the ribcage (and usually needing postural work for that reason!) cause instability, or sometimes the saddle being pushed back. You don't want to alter the flaps, it's costly and in most cases unnecessary.

 

[Red-1]

They asked for advice on what to do, not what saddle to try, hence I said ignore FOR NOW. Your saddle was fitted by a friend/colleague so not dissing it, not remotely, but suggestions for a different saddle, based on the information given, aren't really appropriate. It can just get confusing having a random different brands and models thrown at you when you're asking about saddle placement, balance and girths. I didn't mean to trash anyone making the suggestion, but it's not helpful at this point.

The second photo is much better, it's not massively low in front but I would work with rider preference, if it feels better lifted with, say, a sheepskin pad, then that could be ideal. However to make that judgement I would ideally want to see the tree points and how they lay against the ribcage (see the photos guide for saddle adjustment on ahsaddles.com, it's a tricky photo to get, get well in against the neck) to be sure it's not too narrow, but the balance is better when you have it back in the right place. You would also need to check it's not bridging, sometimes adding a pad, especially if it's a little narrow in angle at the front (unlikely as it's too low) can cause a lack of contact under the middle of the saddle.

Check the tree point placement as I wrote above and it's not that hard to find the back rib, lower down, track it up diagonally, and see if it feels like the weightbearing area is wholly on the back rib. The back rib disappears under the big back muscle, so you have to extrapolate the line. Going down 1/2" may not be a bad idea if the rider still sits well in it as being in front of the rib, in a "mid-rear balance" saddle as this is (ie the rider sits in the middle/back of the seat) can be better for the horse.
The flaps may not be an issue at all, horses don't often object to them, though they can, on large uneven shoulders, large compared to the ribcage (and usually needing postural work for that reason!) cause instability, or sometimes the saddle being pushed back. You don't want to alter the flaps, it's costly and in most cases unnecessary.

I was working on the information on the original post where this saddle was there on trial only, not bought. I really rated Claire and her fitting service, as well as the saddle. As the current saddle is only on trial and the additional help seems to be via remote means, I thought a superb saddle fitting service with a saddle designed with this particular issue in mind was not so wide of the mark as a suggestion. I guess I was seeing this as a discussion forum, where we can share our experiences, which OP is welcome to read or disregard.

Of course, if you think differently, this is what a forum is for.

I'm sorry if I have caused you offence.

 

[ihatework]

I’d be surprised if you can’t get that saddle to work, although ultimately I suppose the horse has the final say in the matter.

 

[Fieldlife]

It is a lovely saddle but I would try a different cut, the flaps tend to be much more forward and a lot of horses dont like that! Speaking of experience of 3 saddle fitters finally trying to fit my horse, you can get the flaps altered ?

I think you are not understanding the difference between jumping saddle flaps - float over shoulder, and flaps are in front of tree and weight bearing area, and more forward cut GP and dressage saddles which can and do impinge on the shoulders of some horses.

Your experiences are true and valid but do not apply to typical jumping saddles.

 

[Fieldlife]

First one is the thorowgood and second is the ideal deal View attachment 98715

It might be a dodgy picture / way horse is standing, but the Thoroughgood doesnt look a great fit in the above photo.

 

[Lamehorses]

I have a Stride Free saddle for this reason. Fitted by Plateau Holistic Equine. Claire took the time to find what was right for us both. She then recommends a 3 monthly check, especially with a younger one like mine.

The Stride Free ones are quite adjustable and I sincerely hope it will stay with him!

Saddle trees explained with Peter Horobin. Benefits of the StrideFree tree. - YouTube

I'd second this, since finding a stride free fitter both my horses are moving better & changing shape

 

[millitiger]

Mine is similar, huge shoulder and VERY stroppy if he thinks something is blocking him.

I tend to fit him wider at the front, than may be textbook, and then sheepskin pad with front riser shims.
It has really changed how he moves.

We've tried many expensive saddles, his current dressage saddle is an older, less fashionable, model which was less than £100 second hand and he LOVES it!

 

[ycbm]

Have you tried a WOW? The whole front arch swings to avoid blocking the shoulder.
.
.

 

[musk]

Thanks everyone, I suspect I put the saddle further forward than the fitter had meant on the second day. Tried it xc tonight placed further back again and horse was super happy. Rider felt tipped forward still but I actually think the seat is too big for her and is putting her weight more froward than it should be (I know thar sounds counter intuitive but we had Instructor with us too)
Going to try the 17inch and hopefully both horse and rider will be happy and will try and get those photos that sbloom has suggested taking tomorrow
Thanks again everyone- really appreciate the replies and will look at rhe other solutions if we don't get to where we want with the shorter saddle

 

[sbloom]

A smaller seat will ride wider which may help support her more, but obviously if the saddle is out of balance it matters not if the seat is too big or too small, the rider is highly likely to tip. She may lack leg room in the smaller seat size. I disagree on the placement of the saddle by the fitter, but the rest is impossible to judge, it might be the perfect saddle.

Shoulder freedom really isn't innate in a particular kind of saddle. What works as shoulder freedom for one horse could be a serious tree shape issue, or panel issue etc with another, despite the design feature that supposedly gives shoulder freedom. Work through the issues with this one, and, as you say, if it doesn't work out, then look at other options from a fundamental fit basis, as well as who would fit any further saddle, brands and models are only as good as the fitter.

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s a lovely saddle but then I would say that as I have about a dozen of those .
I wish I could see the horse without it .
However that aside, horses who struggle to carry jumping saddles often benefit from having the back built up through a concentrated programme of work focused at that .
I would be tempted to buy a numed griffin close contact Numnah the one with memory foam and shims a 5mm shim can sometimes transform how a saddle feels
The shims on these are very thin so you can raise the saddle in tiny increments .

I had one horse who was very funky about his saddle he ended up with a much wider saddle than he needed that we then shimmed he was perfectly happy with that .
The saddle fitter had to look through her fingers.

 

[maya2008]

I would also say it’s slightly too far forwards.

For now, maybe try with a sheepskin half pad underneath. If it is a fraction too wide (and thus dipping at the front) then that will lift it. Horses don’t always fit perfectly into wide/mw etc, sometimes they are between a size and a little padding will do wonders. My pony lost weight this summer and we had exactly that problem - half pad fixed it nicely.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I find the le mieux pro sorb with shims is the best, it allows you to adjust to your personal liking