Saddle Fit for Purpose

[Winger23man]

Hi

anyone have a definition of a saddle that is fit for purpose TIA

 

[Red-1]

For me it would fit the horse and rider that it is intended for. It would be in good repair, as in safe. It would be suitable for the intended purpose (not a dressage saddle for team chasing etc).

 

[Winger23man]

For me it would fit the horse and rider that it is intended for. It would be in good repair, as in safe. It would be suitable for the intended purpose (not a dressage saddle for team chasing etc).

I thanks therefor you are thinking that particular horse not another or for resale

 

[Sossigpoker]

Hi

anyone have a definition of a saddle that is fit for purpose TIA

A saddle tear is not damaged or deformed, making it unsafe , would be on general fit for purpose. If you've sold or bought a saddle and if it is undamaged buf doesn't fit your horse , I wouldn't consider that unfit for purpose, unless fitted by a professional who clearly did a bad job.

 

[sbloom]

It depends on your purpose and how much information the seller collected in order to decide if it was fit for purpose. Defining whether a saddle fits a horse is a very tricky one as any time delays mean a horse can have changed shape and it's then nigh on impossible to get a report to say it could never have fitted. Needs to be safe. Further to that you'd need to clarify with the CAB or possibly SMS/BETA.

 

[SEL]

I had a row with the manufacturer of Monarch saddles some years ago because the panels were skew twisting the saddle. They took the saddle apart and said the tree was fine and panels were 'within tolerance' - without spending a tonne of money getting another opinion I just wrote it off to bad luck (& to never buy another)

If it's a new saddle you've bought then I'd expect no damage and to the specification you ordered. If you ordered made to measure then you'll probably have signed a disclaimer because horses can change shape so quickly.

 

[Winger23man]

I had a row with the manufacturer of Monarch saddles some years ago because the panels were skew twisting the saddle. They took the saddle apart and said the tree was fine and panels were 'within tolerance' - without spending a tonne of money getting another opinion I just wrote it off to bad luck (& to never buy another)

If it's a new saddle you've bought then I'd expect no damage and to the specification you ordered. If you ordered made to measure then you'll probably have signed a disclaimer because horses can change shape so quickly.

I signed no paperwork and wasn’t provided with any terms an conditions

 

[Winger23man]

It depends on your purpose and how much information the seller collected in order to decide if it was fit for purpose. Defining whether a saddle fits a horse is a very tricky one as any time delays mean a horse can have changed shape and it's then nigh on impossible to get a report to say it could never have fitted. Needs to be safe. Further to that you'd need to clarify with the CAB or possibly SMS/BETA.

Who decides if it’s fit for purpose though? Sorry a question
If the saddle ends up sliding about and the fitter can’t stop it doing so it can’t be deemed fit for purpose as it’s not suitable for the job it was purchased for

 

[Rowreach]

Who decides if it’s fit for purpose though? Sorry a question
If the saddle ends up sliding about and the fitter can’t stop it doing so it can’t be deemed fit for purpose as it’s not suitable for the job it was purchased for

It sounds (sorry I'm going to be making assumptions here) that you have purchased a saddle - made to measure? - for your horse that is not fitting properly and is therefore not suitable for use on that horse?

And I'm also assuming that the maker has tried to adjust it, unsuccessfully, and is refusing to take it back?


Ah, edited to say I've just seen your other thread. Might be more sensible to keep just the one thread on the subject going.

 

[Winger23man]

Yes that’s true. Yes maybe too many threads however some people may specifically know about the saddle company plastic tree

it was the fitter not the maker

I guess I have the following questions
What is fit for purpose in terms of a saddle what exactly does this mean
How many times should you allow a fitter to resolve the issues before you deem it fruitless and how long
How do the saddle company trees work
What trees are there
How much can they be adjusted tolerance levels before the whole saddle is compromised

 

[Winger23man]

A saddle tear is not damaged or deformed, making it unsafe , would be on general fit for purpose. If you've sold or bought a saddle and if it is undamaged buf doesn't fit your horse , I wouldn't consider that unfit for purpose, unless fitted by a professional who clearly did a bad job.

It’s a brand new made to measure saddle fitted by someone not trained to sms standards

 

[SO1]

I have a saddle company saddle and had it for the last 14 years on a 13.3 new forest. I am happy with it. I have had two different saddlers both who also fit a range of brands who have it is good for him. However they are not good for all types my saddler told my friend who has a warmblood that none of the brands she has would fit her horse.

I expect your question is really were you sold a brand of saddle that was unsuitable for your needs.

I am on a livery yard and have seen a lot of people have saddle problems with all kinds of brands all the way up to bespoke ones costing 5k or more fitted by qualified saddle fitters with numerous different saddlers coming and trying to get saddles to fit. One my friends had 5 different saddle fitters in one year with different brands and bought 3 new saddles, all premium brands.

So is the saddle fit for purpose I think there are two elements

1. Is the saddle what you ordered and in the condition you were promised it to be.
2. Fit.This is more tricky not all designs and brands will fit all horses but most saddle sellers will not say that their brands will not work they are often evangelistic about their brands. Many owners have limited knowledge of saddle fitting so will trust the saddle fitter and may not realise there is a problem straight away. Horses change shape and therefore saddle that fitted once may no longer fit and need to be adjusted.

Saddle fitting seems to be a situation where there often seems to be disagreements and disappointments. A lot of poor performance is blamed on poorly fitting saddles which might explain why these disputes are so common as people feel let down by saddle fitters.

My understanding is if you order made to measure then there are more risks as the saddler seller cannot easily sell it to another client so harder to get a refund.

 

[Sossigpoker]

It’s a brand new made to measure saddle fitted by someone not trained to sms standards

If it is made to measure and measured by a professional and it doesn't fit then I'd say it's not fit for purpose

 

[Winger23man]

I have a saddle company saddle and had it for the last 14 years on a 13.3 new forest. I am happy with it. I have had two different saddlers both who also fit a range of brands who have it is good for him. However they are not good for all types my saddler told my friend who has a warmblood that none of the brands she has would fit her horse.

I expect your question is really were you sold a brand of saddle that was unsuitable for your needs.

I am on a livery yard and have seen a lot of people have saddle problems with all kinds of brands all the way up to bespoke ones costing 5k or more fitted by qualified saddle fitters with numerous different saddlers coming and trying to get saddles to fit. One my friends had 5 different saddle fitters in one year with different brands and bought 3 new saddles, all premium brands.

So is the saddle fit for purpose I think there are two elements

1. Is the saddle what you ordered and in the condition you were promised it to be.
2. Fit.This is more tricky not all designs and brands will fit all horses but most saddle sellers will not say that their brands will not work they are often evangelistic about their brands. Many owners have limited knowledge of saddle fitting so will trust the saddle fitter and may not realise there is a problem straight away. Horses change shape and therefore saddle that fitted once may no longer fit and need to be adjusted.

Saddle fitting seems to be a situation where there often seems to be disagreements and disappointments. A lot of poor performance is blamed on poorly fitting saddles which might explain why these disputes are so common as people feel let down by saddle fitters.

My understanding is if you order made to measure then there are more risks as the saddler seller cannot easily sell it to another client so harder to get a refund.

If there are issues for the seller and problems the seller has an obligation to make this very clear upon entering the contract as they have pay due diligence to what they are being asked to do. I know quite a few people with made to measure by a qualified master saddler and fitter and no issues. I guess here you have an unqualified fitter doing a job that requires a great deal of skill

 

[Bonnie Allie]

From the other side however, I have seen purchasers whinge about the saddle not being right but not being accountable for their own riding or body shape.

If your horse can only take a 16in saddle but your butt needs a 17.5in then you are going to be landing in the back of the saddle in rising trot which is going to upset the balance.

If you have excess weight in one stirrup then the saddle will become uneven fairly quickly.

If you buy the latest fluffy pad in pretty colours and shove under the saddle it will tighten it at the wither and change the fit, making it fish tail at the back in trot.

Before you go the “fit for purpose” route be super sure that you communicated correctly with the saddle seller on exactly what you wanted and you are accountable for every action you took post delivery of the saddle.

 

[MissTyc]

From the other side however, I have seen purchasers whinge about the saddle not being right but not being accountable for their own riding or body shape.

If your horse can only take a 16in saddle but your butt needs a 17.5in then you are going to be landing in the back of the saddle in rising trot which is going to upset the balance.

If you have excess weight in one stirrup then the saddle will become uneven fairly quickly.

If you buy the latest fluffy pad in pretty colours and shove under the saddle it will tighten it at the wither and change the fit, making it fish tail at the back in trot.

Before you go the “fit for purpose” route be super sure that you communicated correctly with the saddle seller on exactly what you wanted and you are accountable for every action you took post delivery of the saddle.

A good saddle fitter should be looking into all of that, however? The one that comes to my yard has told people they are too big, not for their pony, but for any saddle hed be comfortable fitting to their pony. Other saddle fitters are, however, happy to sell these people a saddle. Sometimes the pony is fine; sometimes it isn't. But I do agree that the seller needs to see it in action used with the clothes and pads that it is normally used with. Sadly, some saddles just dont' work for some horses even when, to all appearances, they are perfectly well fitted.

 

[sbloom]

A good saddle fitter should be looking into all of that, however? The one that comes to my yard has told people they are too big, not for their pony, but for any saddle hed be comfortable fitting to their pony. Other saddle fitters are, however, happy to sell these people a saddle. Sometimes the pony is fine; sometimes it isn't. But I do agree that the seller needs to see it in action used with the clothes and pads that it is normally used with. Sadly, some saddles just dont' work for some horses even when, to all appearances, they are perfectly well fitted.

There are so many theories about how large a saddle the horse can take but ultimately it's all about where does the weight fall, a forward balance saddle carries the rider as close as possible to the centre of gravity, away from T18, so it usually matters not if it extends beyond the back rib. But most traditional English saddles, anything with, ironically, a large rear gusset (making the panel longer) usually needs to carry weight only back TO and not beyond the back rib.

It's a damned hard job for a fitter to tell a rider they're too big for the saddle their horse or pony can take, when the vet has passed the horse as suitable for purpose at the vetting, and their trainer and bodyworker has never said anything. However we DO need to optimise the rider - get them off the cantle (usually more a problem with taller riders than shorter, heavier riders), use the appropriate pads and DON'T buy in to the "a perfect fitting saddle only needs a cotton numnah". For a start a saddle can literally fit in the morning and not in the evening, as horses' posture and shape changes through each and every day, let alone through progressive training.

It's SO complex - in a fitting for instance a change in saddle, change in rider's balance, can mean the horse has a negative reaction, especially if we go "ooh shoulder freedom" and push the horse forwards, not assisting them to find their new balance. So the best fitting saddle in the long term might look like the horse doesn't like it on the day.

So until we have a better understanding of, and of course education explaining, how horse-saddle-rider is this symbiotic little equation, with one affecting both the others, we're stuck in this loop of blame and confrontation. I'm not sure what the answer is for the whole industry...but never take simple answers as read - for instance the current belief that saddle slip is down to the horse. What affects the horse, what keeps the horse in compensatory patterns? The rider!

 

[Winger23man]

From the other side however, I have seen purchasers whinge about the saddle not being right but not being accountable for their own riding or body shape.

If your horse can only take a 16in saddle but your butt needs a 17.5in then you are going to be landing in the back of the saddle in rising trot which is going to upset the balance.

If you have excess weight in one stirrup then the saddle will become uneven fairly quickly.

If you buy the latest fluffy pad in pretty colours and shove under the saddle it will tighten it at the wither and change the fit, making it fish tail at the back in trot.

Before you go the “fit for purpose” route be super sure that you communicated correctly with the saddle seller on exactly what you wanted and you are accountable for every action you took post delivery of the saddle.

Fortunately I don’t have a big backside but as a saddle fitter you are duty bound as a saddle fitter NOT to sell a saddle to someone clearly overweight and too big for the pony. Fortunately that’s not me
I ride to a high level so not unbalanced also I’m old school so don’t use fluffy pads just a thin numnah to keep the saddle clean underneath as I shouldn’t need a saddle pad if the saddle fits

 

[sbloom]

Fortunately I don’t have a big backside but as a saddle fitter you are duty bound as a saddle fitter NOT to sell a saddle to someone clearly overweight and too big for the pony. Fortunately that’s not me
I ride to a high level so not unbalanced also I’m old school so don’t use fluffy pads just a thin numnah to keep the saddle clean underneath as I shouldn’t need a saddle pad if the saddle fits

I'm not meaning to get personal, but your posts are more and more making me feel that you are looking for a magic saddle, and not being part of the process. You have admitted to having not done your research but are making statements that are very black and white and saddle fitting isn't like that.

For instance there are many, very good, reasons to use a pad under a saddle, and no, a fitter isn't always duty bound - just because they can't find a saddle to fit the combo doesn't mean it's impossible. We also often are in the position of knowing/believing we'll do the very best job in trying to keep the horse as comfortable as possible because, in most cases, if we say the rider's too big they'll go to another fitter, who could well do a much worse job and might trash us all over social media too. Devil and deep blue sea and, as I say, with the reputation fitters have, which threads like this only add to (no blame, just a fact) then a fitter being the first one out of ALL the professionals to have already worked with the combo, will usually go down like a cup of cold sick and we'll be accused of overstepping.

Walk a day in my shoes.

 

[Winger23man]

I'm not meaning to get personal, but your posts are more and more making me feel that you are looking for a magic saddle, and not being part of the process. You have admitted to having not done your research but are making statements that are very black and white and saddle fitting isn't like that.

For instance there are many, very good, reasons to use a pad under a saddle, and no, a fitter isn't always duty bound - just because they can't find a saddle to fit the combo doesn't mean it's impossible. We also often are in the position of knowing/believing we'll do the very best job in trying to keep the horse as comfortable as possible because, in most cases, if we say the rider's too big they'll go to another fitter, who could well do a much worse job and might trash us all over social media too. Devil and deep blue sea and, as I say, with the reputation fitters have, which threads like this only add to (no blame, just a fact) then a fitter being the first one out of ALL the professionals to have already worked with the combo, will usually go down like a cup of cold sick and we'll be accused of overstepping.

Walk a day in my shoes.

In all honesty I’m walking away from the equestrian world and giving up on it I’m so shocked at the amount of dishonesty and hiding under stones to avoid be held accountable
I can say hand on heart I have a fabulous sms fitter who in the years I have used 10 in total sadly I deviated to the fitter I’m talking about as I wanted a made to measure and my sms didn’t do them. I made the worse decision making in my life. The sms fitter is now back and the horse back in its tatty old saddle which fits and doesn’t slip even with weight changes but is regularly checked by the sms fitter. That for one says enough for me

why does an old tatty saddle that I’ve had for quite a long time still fit with seasonal changes in the horse needs a few tweaks now and then but has never slipped. Why because it’s been correctly fitted in the first place Anyhow I’m closing there as clearly there is a disagreement in opinion as this isn’t a forum for that IMO

 

[sbloom]

There are plenty of saddles out there that don't slip for all the WRONG reasons. Again, these things aren't black and white, and as we learn more we learn just how much those types of saddles can cause their own long term issues. It's just that in the past we had no way to know that the saddle was causing restriction and compensatory movement patterns that caused some kind of injury months or years down the line. We now have much for evidence for these linkages.

Not slipping even with weight changes sounds suspiciously like it could be a magic saddle....

You've been given a ton of good advice and help, it's up to you how if you choose to accept that. This forum is incredibly helpful and many many posters are incredibly generous with their time and knowledge.

 

[SO1]

I have just changed saddlers as I wanted one that could come on Saturdays.

Before they came they sent me an email with their T&Cs including saying they cannot fit saddles to horses that are very over and under weight and riders must not be more than 15% of body weight of horse. They also said that if they think the horse needs vet or should not be being ridden they will not fit.

I know it is difficult for people to turn away business but I think to protect themselves saddle fitters do need to email the T&C before visits.

A good saddle fitter should be looking into all of that, however? The one that comes to my yard has told people they are too big, not for their pony, but for any saddle hed be comfortable fitting to their pony. Other saddle fitters are, however, happy to sell these people a saddle. Sometimes the pony is fine; sometimes it isn't. But I do agree that the seller needs to see it in action used with the clothes and pads that it is normally used with. Sadly, some saddles just dont' work for some horses even when, to all appearances, they are perfectly well fitted.

 

[sbloom]

I have just changed saddlers as I wanted one that could come on Saturdays.

Before they came they sent me an email with their T&Cs including saying they cannot fit saddles to horses that are very over and under weight and riders must not be more than 15% of body weight of horse. They also said that if they think the horse needs vet or should not be being ridden they will not fit.

I know it is difficult for people to turn away business but I think to protect themselves saddle fitters do need to email the T&C before visits.

Half my job is about protecting myself, I rewrote every single thing I send out/rely on two weeks ago because two customers were unhappy.

For anyone that thinks saddle fitting is just about the saddle (do they really still exist?!) here's your starter for 10:

http://www.centaurbiomechanics.co.uk/research/

 

[Winger23man]

I have just changed saddlers as I wanted one that could come on Saturdays.

Before they came they sent me an email with their T&Cs including saying they cannot fit saddles to horses that are very over and under weight and riders must not be more than 15% of body weight of horse. They also said that if they think the horse needs vet or should not be being ridden they will not fit.

I know it is difficult for people to turn away business but I think to protect themselves saddle fitters do need to email the T&C before visits.

this is the example of consumer contracts cancellation 2013 information cancellation and additional charges that I mentioned that fitters dealing off premises should be using by law it makes it abundantly clear what’s expected but should also include a lot for information there are 24 points to cover in total otherwise it’s a breach of contract

 

[Winger23man]

Half my job is about protecting myself, I rewrote every single thing I send out/rely on two weeks ago because two customers were unhappy.

For anyone that thinks saddle fitting is just about the saddle (do they really still exist?!) here's your starter for 10:

http://www.centaurbiomechanics.co.uk/research/

It’s very much an overall picture. You can still have the right saddle for your horse however if the rider is unbalanced it can affect a lot of other things just as the horse carrying a hidden injury. I say that as another horse fortunately not subjected to the fitter I mentioned was slightly off behind turns out physio found the horses hips were slightly out that’s why fitters should do a full assessment of the horse body weight gait injuries then a full assessment of the rider weight height ability and see them ride

 

[Sossigpoker]

Why don't you get another qualified fitter to describe how the new saddle doesn't fit and then armed wirh that , write to the fitter in question and give them X days to give you a refund before you start court action. That's what I'd do if I was 100% the saddle didn't fit.
You start small claims court action online , it doesn't cost a lot and you don't need a solicitor.

 

[Rowreach]

It’s very much an overall picture. You can still have the right saddle for your horse however if the rider is unbalanced it can affect a lot of other things just as the horse carrying a hidden injury. I say that as another horse fortunately not subjected to the fitter I mentioned was slightly off behind turns out physio found the horses hips were slightly out that’s why fitters should do a full assessment of the horse body weight gait injuries then a full assessment of the rider weight height ability and see them ride

I fitted for several years. I can hand on heart say that the majority of horses I saw were not sound (quite often due to the saddles they were being ridden in and the way they were being ridden), but I can tell you categorically that the majority of owners don't want to hear that, don't want to improve their riding, don't want to acknowledge that the issue is anything to do with them or indeed that their horses might be so uncomfortable that they cannot function properly under saddle and rider.

The number of people who rode their horses straight towards me, demanding to know if their stirrups were level - dear lord, if you can't tell that you are sitting crooked, get off the horse!

I agree that a fitter needs to be making an all round assessment of horse, rider, what they are hoping to achieve, but they are not magicians, they do not have xray vision, and there's nothing you can do if someone is totally intransigent in their own beliefs about themselves and their horse.

Tell me this, if your old saddle suits you and your horse, but is a bit tatty, why did you not go for something new but similar in tree shape to that one? It sounds like your new m2m saddle is a completely different shape?

 

[BeansNsausages]

If you paid by card and can evidence that the goods are not as described/not fit for purpose, for example with emails from the merchant detailing that the saddle will work well on your horse and backed up by an independent report from another saddler to say the saddle is not suitable for your horse, then I would imagine you have a case to chargeback the funds on this one.

Even without the independent report, your bank may still give it a whirl for you.

 

[Winger23man]

I fitted for several years. I can hand on heart say that the majority of horses I saw were not sound (quite often due to the saddles they were being ridden in and the way they were being ridden), but I can tell you categorically that the majority of owners don't want to hear that, don't want to improve their riding, don't want to acknowledge that the issue is anything to do with them or indeed that their horses might be so uncomfortable that they cannot function properly under saddle and rider.

The number of people who rode their horses straight towards me, demanding to know if their stirrups were level - dear lord, if you can't tell that you are sitting crooked, get off the horse!

I agree that a fitter needs to be making an all round assessment of horse, rider, what they are hoping to achieve, but they are not magicians, they do not have xray vision, and there's nothing you can do if someone is totally intransigent in their own beliefs about themselves and their horse.

Tell me this, if your old saddle suits you and your horse, but is a bit tatty, why did you not go for something new but similar in tree shape to that one? It sounds like your new m2m saddle is a completely different shape?

You have posed a very good question. If a saddle fitter told me I wasn’t riding correctly or my horse was lame I would do something about it perhaps I’m on my own in that respect. Interesting that the same saddle fitter didn’t spot my other horse was lame fortunately I never let them get involved with fitting a saddle for that pony and sort vet advice not all riders are in knowledgeable but not many are knowledgeable including myself in the selection of the correct saddle with correct fitting. I have a good idea now after studying more

re saddle my tatty saddle is a gp saddle and I wanted a dressage saddle. My view is I’m paying an expert to advise what is feasible and what isn’t and managing my expectations in terms of my riding ability and my horses If this isn’t what saddle fitters do (it’s not my experience with qualified SMS fitters I have used just the unqualified one - lesson learned) then sadly I’m misinformed and I’d be better off getting some cheap non qualified training somewhere and fit my own

 

[Winger23man]

If it is made to measure and measured by a professional and it doesn't fit then I'd say it's not fit for purpose

Just an add on when the saddle was examined by an expert it’s been over flocked and lumpy and is asymmetrical as a result. The fitter has widened the saddle when the horse reduced in size but then heavily flocked it which the expert can not understand. The saddle should have been narrowed and flocking reduced not added