saddle fit, opinions please

[just-me]

I had a sms saddle fitter to fit a saddle company saddle to my little irish horse but i really don't think it fits He is croup high, has very little wither and is broad over his back. He also tends to push the saddle forward and sideways, so not the easiest thing to fit!

I was a bit concerned about the amount of clearance over his wither but was told this is because he is so low withered, (it does drop a little after a few minutes and with the girth tightened up) Hes being rebacked (once saddle is sorted!) so wasn't ridden but she only watched him being lunged because i pushed her. If i hadn't she would of been happy to leave without seeing him move but typically the saddle seemed relatively stable while she was there

When hes moving the saddle bounces on his back and if he puts his head down, the back lifts right up. Its the cob saddle so has a point and balance strap but the saddle seems to do the same thing no matter what girth straps i use. When i asked another saddler about this they said it sounds like the saddle is too wide??

When his back was checked i was told he looks symmetrical & hes using a girth with elastic at both ends so not sure why its moving sideways

Despite this he seems quite happy with it! maybe because its so light, when i briefly tried a stubben on him that did the same thing he made his feelings very clear!

Just really looking for opinions on if the saddle looks like it could be made to fit by another saddler adjusting the tree (again) and flocking? or if its the tree shape thats wrong & I need to get another saddle?

Sorry for the long post! Thanks

 

[PennyJ]

My inexpert, unqualified opinion is that it doesn't look quite right at the back... My own saddle fitter tells me that they shouldn't lift up at the back, which you might find useful information.

 

[be positive]

The saddle should not lift at the back when the horse is moving, this can cause it to hollow against it and possibly react by bucking, the panels do not seem to be sitting flat which means the weight bearing area is limited. Overall it looks a little small, not in length but in width of the seat and I would think it is not really suitable for him.
With work he may lose some weight but will muscle up and then I think it will be too narrow.

 

[just-me]

The saddle should not lift at the back when the horse is moving, this can cause it to hollow against it and possibly react by bucking, the panels do not seem to be sitting flat which means the weight bearing area is limited. Overall it looks a little small, not in length but in width of the seat and I would think it is not really suitable for him.
With work he may lose some weight but will muscle up and then I think it will be too narrow.

So the panels not sitting flat isn't something that can be rectified with flocking?

I understand what your saying about broader panels but long term i will have my wow fitted to him, just need something less expensive for him to be restarted in.

 

[sbloom]

I fit mainly cobs and natives so it's an area I know well and I'd say that tree and panel are too curvy from front to back for your horse hence the lift off at the back. You need a flatter tree and panel, probably a wider head to the tree, and that should all give you lower clearance at the front as well.

I do think the saddle is a fraction wide as well, but making it narrower will make it pommel high and put your weight onto the cantle. These saddles cannot be made to fit any horse, no matter what is said about them - you can't alter panel depth and shape once a saddle is made (or rather without replacing the whole panel at significant cost) and you can't make a tree flatter to my knowledge. You will also find that a traditional beech laminate tree may be more stable.

The sideways movement probably is down to a tiny asymmetry but this is showing itself as movement in the saddle because of the poor fit and the lack of contact by the panels.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I'll PM you with a suggestion OK.

 

[Bosworth]

My first concern from what you have said is your girth, get rid of it. It is elasticated at one end and will be the likely cause of the saddle lifting and tipping to one side as the elastic just stretches and contracts. horrible, it will alos allow the saddle to move forwards and onto the larger shoulder which then tips the saddle sideways. The other major problem is that you have the girth on the first two straps, that pulls the front down and lets the back lift.

Saddle company trees are very flat, work really well for a wide flat backed horse, because he has no withers the saddle should sit higher at the front than the usual 3 fingers you would expect as a rule of thumb, and the saddle is looking level but that is without a rider so it is impossible to say whether it goes too low with a rider on.

it would be useful to see a photo of the saddle with a rider on and a decent girth, also put the saddle back behind the shoulder, it looks a little too far forward.

 

[cremedemonthe]

The head is the wrong shape, unfortunately 99.9% of saddle trees today are still made with cut back heads as is this one, the shape raise the saddle up at the front to avoid high withers, hence the cut back but as your horse isn't high withered it is wrong for this type of horse. What's the answer?
IF you can find one, a less cut back head or sloping head tree, this would lower the front making it a closer neater fit and help lock it in to the shape of the horse's withers.
I am not a fan of elasticated girths, I am old school having trained 25 years ago and we only had girths without elastic which we had no problems with.
Oz

 

[cremedemonthe]

I have added some pictures to show you what I mean, first picture is a typical cutback head plastic tree, can you see how it curves?
Lifting the head up and as you have found out, the back too, these style of saddle trees suit high withered horses with a good substance at the rear giving them a "dish" shape to their back.

Now, have a look at this one, it's probably about 1/4 cut back head and it is a close contact tree, therefore it will lay closer to the horse and it is flatter as sbloom says you need a flatter tree, compare this one to the one about and you can see where we are coming from.

these are just examples of different trees it is just to show you the variety out there!
Personally I would not have told you this saddle was 100% if I had been fitting it and you should always see the horse in action with rider on board to access the saddle properly.
Oz

 

[ester]

My first concern from what you have said is your girth, get rid of it. It is elasticated at one end and will be the likely cause of the saddle lifting and tipping to one side as the elastic just stretches and contracts. horrible, it will alos allow the saddle to move forwards and onto the larger shoulder which then tips the saddle sideways. The other major problem is that you have the girth on the first two straps, that pulls the front down and lets the back lift.

the OP said that the girth had elastic at both ends

OP I think sbloom and creme are better qualified to advise than me but as a ley person it looks like the tree isn't flat enough as the back of the panels don't have a lot of contact with the back even when the horse is stationary.

 

[just-me]

Thanks for all the replys.

Oz i have a cc jump saddle built on a really flat tree but when i sat it on him it bridged so i assumed he needed something inbetween curved and flat

The best thing i have sat on him so far was my old ponys gfs hoop tree vsd but although i am little i feel very restricted in a 16" seat and theres no where for my knees to go.

As for the girthing as ester pointed out the girth is elastic at both ends, i have heard good things about the stubben string girths but hes a bit girthy and seems happier in something with a bit of give. As for the stap positions saddler used 1st and 5th strap but i then read that using both one cancels out the other? In the photos hes using the point and the 3rd straps (middle normal one) If i don't use the point strap the saddle moves forward.

I'm not sure where to go from here? sounds like im unlikely to get something 2nd hand, thinking treeless might be the best option?

 

[cremedemonthe]

Have you got another fitter or saddler who is local who could come and have a look?
Try to find a saddler who comes with recommendations by others, lots of satisfied customers and horses are better than any qualifications on paper I feel!
Oz

 

[sbloom]

Thanks for all the replys.

Oz i have a cc jump saddle built on a really flat tree but when i sat it on him it bridged so i assumed he needed something inbetween curved and flat

The best thing i have sat on him so far was my old ponys gfs hoop tree vsd but although i am little i feel very restricted in a 16" seat and theres no where for my knees to go.

As for the girthing as ester pointed out the girth is elastic at both ends, i have heard good things about the stubben string girths but hes a bit girthy and seems happier in something with a bit of give. As for the stap positions saddler used 1st and 5th strap but i then read that using both one cancels out the other? In the photos hes using the point and the 3rd straps (middle normal one) If i don't use the point strap the saddle moves forward.

I'm not sure where to go from here? sounds like im unlikely to get something 2nd hand, thinking treeless might be the best option?

Is the cc tree the right width? If it is too narrow it may cause it to bridfge but bear in mind a horse lifts its back in work so will fit flatter than it looks.

Girthing on the point and third strap is nearly always the right option (and is always the first set up I try) for wide and or flat horses - it does, as you say, stop a saddle from moving forwards, but it can only do so much if the tree doesn't fit! The tree needs to be exactly the right shape at the fornt though otherwise you do exacerbate any pressure points and clamp the wither or shoulder.

Using the back straps can cause the saddle to move forwards even if you also use the point straps. They can be used to help cure minor instability but a saddle that lifts (rather than a tiny bounce which it MIGHT help, but you need a fitter to help decide that) at the back should not be corrected this way as it will force the deepest part of a too curvy tree into the horse's back which you definitely want to avoid.

I like double elasticated girths and find that a nice wide padded Atherstone with STRONG elastic at both ends can help with minor saddle instability.

 

[just-me]

Having put the cc saddle back on him i can see your all right about the tree. It conforms to the shape of his back much better and the bridging is very slight despite it being a medium fit. On the plus side i like a flat seat and ultimately need a jumping saddle just a shame this one won't fit.

Sbloom have pm'd you.

 

[Chamfrom]

Hi - sounds like you have been having a nightmare!
I too am an SMS saddle fitter.
Looking at the panels on this saddle from the front they are nice and flat, however they have gussetted fronts and you seem to have quite a good cut back head on the tree.
These tend to come on saddles that are made for high withered horses and horses with muscle atrophy or little muscle along their top line. The gussetted fronts and also drop panels ( pound to a penny if it has a well cut back head and gussetted fronts then it also has drop panels) then it is also know as thoroughbred panels and cleary made for a horse that is not rounded and flatish withered.
My personal opinion, for what it is worth is you could do with a saddle with either felt, rubber or very flat labms wool flocked panels. In any case they need to be very flat and you could do with a close contact tree. I have seen this so many time that people fit saddles like this to rounder horses when the tree was developed for a different shaped horse entirely. I know its not always possible but the only way to tell when buying a new saddle is to get the tree on the horses back before the saddle is made up... we never sell a saddle where we have not done that - however most saddle fitters are not saddlers a mearly stencil the shape of a horses back onto a pad of paper, send that off and you get the closest fit from a ready made off the peg saddle and pay made to measure prices.... sad but true.... sorry :-(

 

[just-me]

Yes, most definitely a nightmare! have lost count of how many saddles have been tried on him now

I really thought that this being the Verona "Cob" saddle it would have panels and tree to suit a cob, not a tb

 

[cremedemonthe]

Hi - sounds like you have been having a nightmare!
I too am an SMS saddle fitter.
Looking at the panels on this saddle from the front they are nice and flat, however they have gussetted fronts and you seem to have quite a good cut back head on the tree.
These tend to come on saddles that are made for high withered horses and horses with muscle atrophy or little muscle along their top line. The gussetted fronts and also drop panels ( pound to a penny if it has a well cut back head and gussetted fronts then it also has drop panels) then it is also know as thoroughbred panels and cleary made for a horse that is not rounded and flatish withered.
My personal opinion, for what it is worth is you could do with a saddle with either felt, rubber or very flat labms wool flocked panels. In any case they need to be very flat and you could do with a close contact tree. I have seen this so many time that people fit saddles like this to rounder horses when the tree was developed for a different shaped horse entirely. I know its not always possible but the only way to tell when buying a new saddle is to get the tree on the horses back before the saddle is made up... we never sell a saddle where we have not done that - however most saddle fitters are not saddlers a mearly stencil the shape of a horses back onto a pad of paper, send that off and you get the closest fit from a ready made off the peg saddle and pay made to measure prices.... sad but true.... sorry :-(

Hello, are you the same chamfrom I was chatting to on preloved a month or two back about the bernard weatherill side saddle skirt I had for sale on there for a friend??
Oz

 

[Equibeau]

Hi - sounds like you have been having a nightmare!
I too am an SMS saddle fitter.
Looking at the panels on this saddle from the front they are nice and flat, however they have gussetted fronts and you seem to have quite a good cut back head on the tree.
These tend to come on saddles that are made for high withered horses and horses with muscle atrophy or little muscle along their top line. The gussetted fronts and also drop panels ( pound to a penny if it has a well cut back head and gussetted fronts then it also has drop panels) then it is also know as thoroughbred panels and cleary made for a horse that is not rounded and flatish withered.
My personal opinion, for what it is worth is you could do with a saddle with either felt, rubber or very flat labms wool flocked panels. In any case they need to be very flat and you could do with a close contact tree. I have seen this so many time that people fit saddles like this to rounder horses when the tree was developed for a different shaped horse entirely. I know its not always possible but the only way to tell when buying a new saddle is to get the tree on the horses back before the saddle is made up... we never sell a saddle where we have not done that - however most saddle fitters are not saddlers a mearly stencil the shape of a horses back onto a pad of paper, send that off and you get the closest fit from a ready made off the peg saddle and pay made to measure prices.... sad but true.... sorry :-(

I was just thinking the other day that Saddle fitters should have a selection of trees that could be tried on the horses backs to get the best fit. I have never seen this done before and would be much more interested if this were the case.

 

[cremedemonthe]

I was just thinking the other day that Saddle fitters should have a selection of trees that could be tried on the horses backs to get the best fit. I have never seen this done before and would be much more interested if this were the case.

THIS is how it used to be in the good old days, not now most of the time with off the peg though unfortunately!
Oz

 

[sbloom]

I was just thinking the other day that Saddle fitters should have a selection of trees that could be tried on the horses backs to get the best fit. I have never seen this done before and would be much more interested if this were the case.

It is an interesting exercise, I have just done a bare tree fitting afternoon for my new saddle range that will be coming out next year. I do think though that if you find someone who understands your type of horse - I go to many where the local saddle fitter has been honest and said they have nothing to suit at all - then you can easily be fitted from off the peg. I know every tree that is in our standard saddles and know exactly how they work and what they will fit. I think it is much harder to do that as an SMS retailer who stocks maybe 10 brands.

I agree that the cut back head and the gussetted front panels scream "TB" to me and I have NO idea why so many companies use them in cob saddles, along with overstuffed sausage shaped panels of course

 

[cremedemonthe]

I agree that the cut back head and the gussetted front panels scream "TB" to me and I have NO idea why so many companies use them in cob saddles, along with overstuffed sausage shaped panels of course [/QUOTE]



Because traditional laminated beechwood tree making (and some synthetics have followed suit) is still steeped in tradition and stuck in the last century!
Most cobs years ago (MANY years) were either used for draught or ridden bareback by the lower classes, it was only blood types, horse with high withers that were ridden by the upper classes and it was these sort of animals that the saddle trees were designed for.
Oz

 

[just-me]

Hi again! Armed with your advice I have been on the hunt for another saddle with a wooden flatter tree, no drop panels and in a 17" xw (+ I didn’t want foam) which ruled out everything in my local saddlerys but i have found this jeffries and while it looks alot better to me its not 100% but im hoping that its close enough to get a sadder out to tweak it?

I think the main issues are down to the girthing? It doesn't have a point strap and its moving forwards until the girth becomes perpendicular. Its not bouncing on his back but i am still getting a little lift when he puts his head right down, but huge improvement compared to the sc saddle!

I was hoping that maybe with a point strap added and possibly a curved girth (last one on the page) it might stay put?


http://www.bettersaddles.co.uk/acatalog/girths.html

This is him, a bit less hairy

first girthed up and still further forward than id like

after a couple of mins lunging

rear panel

lift with head down

 

[just-me]

bump!

 

[sbloom]

Because it's not in the right place it's hard to judge - will it not stay back even just girthed? It is pommel high, though the tree angles look like they might be okay when back on the ribcage and not on the shoudler (the shoulder is usually wider than the ribcage, tho not always!). At the moment you would sit on the cantle, placing too much weight behind, and those knee rolls look like a jumping saddle rather than the GP that I suspect it is! Until you see it with point straps (you may not need a curved girth) and see it ridden it is really hard to say. They are cheap to have added.

 

[cptrayes]

I don't understand why you don't just have your WOW properly fitted to him with a foregirth and possibly the H girth too. My WB needs both to stop his saddle moving up his neck.

Is he really likely to chuck himself on the floor wearing it? And if not, what harm do you expect it to come to while he is re-started??

 

[dumpling]

I reckon the Jeffries has a better tree but the knee roll is completely effecting the shoulder.

 

[just-me]

It is pommel high, though the tree angles look like they might be okay when back on the ribcage and not on the shoudler (the shoulder is usually wider than the ribcage, tho not always!).

I think that might be the problem this and the sc saddle refuse to sit further back even without a girth.

I don't understand why you don't just have your WOW properly fitted to him with a foregirth and possibly the H girth too. My WB needs both to stop his saddle moving up his neck.

Is he really likely to chuck himself on the floor wearing it? And if not, what harm do you expect it to come to while he is re-started??

Basically yes! the chances of him trashing 2k saddle are quite high, that and the fact that the wow is currently fitted to my tb who has a curved y bar means it really is the last resort, having said that im nearly there! and have already bought him a foregirth.

 

[sbloom]

I think that might be the problem this and the sc saddle refuse to sit further back even without a girth.

But you can put an ungirthed saddle on the hindquarters if you want to? Even the wrong shaped saddle can be sat in the right place...

 

[sbloom]

I think that might be the problem this and the sc saddle refuse to sit further back even without a girth.

Even the wrong shaped saddle can be put wherever you want...girthing can move the saddle but I don't quite understand that it can't start in the right place. And just as an aside and not necessarily to the OP, if a saddle does end up cantle low, the rider's weight will be on the cantle which means the front of the saddle becomes light (no grip) and is even more likely to move forwards. Yet again it shows that the whole cantle low and/or saddle moving forwards thing is not always about a saddle tree being too narrow which is what so many people assume.

 

[Tammytoo]

It's too high at the front and I'm sure he would be better in a straighter cut saddle as the jeffries seems to be coming over his shoiulder.

I haven't read all the posts, so sorry if it's been mentioned already, but Wintec make a special "wide" saddle, with a straighter cut and slimmer panels . Might be worth considering - I think you can get them new for about £350 from Equestrian Clearance or Wintec stockists. Get the flocked one, not Cair!