poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
Will do tomorrow. Thank you
unfortunately I’m sure it’s currently also too narrow, it’s un-altered though so may be a bit of room to widen and it’s not wonky.
Saddle fit opinions
- Thread starter poiuytrewq
- Start date
unfortunately I’m sure it’s currently also too narrow, it’s un-altered though so may be a bit of room to widen and it’s not wonky.
Palindrome
Well-Known Member
I am not sure the saddle was completely perpendicular to the camera when you took the photo. If you look at the saddle rack above where it is attached to the wall it does not look horizontal or straight.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
In all fairness it may well not be! There’s not a lot straight about this place and the walls in the tack room tended to crumble. it may well be a screw wouldn’t hold so it’s not dead level.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
TPO
Fly paper for freaks 🍀
I'd go back to the fitter and explain saddle isn't fit for purpose because its asymmetrical. No amount of flocking will even it out.
Edited because it looks different in new photos
So yeah basically I'd go back to fitter and point out the mismatched stitching/panels and ask for a refund for the saddle. The fitting fees are a goner I'd reckon
Then yeah I'd try and find a new fitter.
Apologies if teaching granny to suck eggs but I find these books helpful.
Practical Saddle Fitting by Ken Lyndon-Dykes
This was the cheapest I could find:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303588530206?hash=item46af49581e:g:FxsAAOSwz5pgW4Xn&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338304675&customid=&toolid=10049
Joyce Harman Pain Free Guide to Saddle Fitting
Again cheapest I could find but they often appear 2nd hand on amazon
https://biblio.co.uk/book/horses-pain-free-back-saddle-fit/d/1468170998
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
Very helpful thank you!
I’ll have a good look. I don’t think I paid a fitting fee to be honest, just the saddle price then the second visit I paid for the adjustments done.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
As a next bit of info!
Horse has had saddle fit trouble before. Previous owner had a few that it turned out were no good, they settled on an adjusta with this fitter.
My old saddle fitters that I’ve used are the ones who sold his original 2 to the guy I bought the horse from.
As a result I went to the same fitter as the previous owner.
His old Albion was apparently the perfect saddle and he did a bit of eventing etc in it with no problem.
Horse has had saddle fit trouble before. Previous owner had a few that it turned out were no good, they settled on an adjusta with this fitter.
My old saddle fitters that I’ve used are the ones who sold his original 2 to the guy I bought the horse from.
As a result I went to the same fitter as the previous owner.
His old Albion was apparently the perfect saddle and he did a bit of eventing etc in it with no problem.
Sossigpoker
Well-Known Member
No it really wouldn't be a good idea as by using a riser you're making it even more narrow. I'm not a saddle fitter but to me the channel isn't wide enough , as in the channel that goes between the panels is too narrow and not wide enough for the horse's ribs. That's why it's lifting at the back. And I suspect it's probably bridging too.
Sadly not all saddle fitters are good even if they are SMS registered. I've used one who just awful, for me and the horse and I rode in a very poor saddle for 6 months, no wonder I kept ending up on the floor !
Pinkvboots
Well-Known Member
It's not uncommon to have saddles that are not completely symmetrical I had one and it tipped me to the right no matter what I did .
Pinkvboots
Well-Known Member
It's too narrow even as someone who doesn't fit saddles it doesn't fit.
What width is that saddle?
What width is that saddle?
hock
Well-Known Member
I’ve heard some really bad horror stories lately about really high end saddles, I think there’s some serious issues within the industry currently. It’ll never be as bad as back in the day when you threw anything on your horse but the really good saddle fitters are so rare to find. Forget the fit of the saddle on the horse for a minute, how on earth can anyone ride in that saddle effectively? And all the saddle brands are the same, spending £5k on a saddle does not protect you from the shower of saddle fitting. I’m a bit savage about this topic atm can you tell? ?
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
No, I would not do that. With mine, the saddles became too tight at the side of the wither. I did try to lift it, so a wider part of the saddle was at the wider point, but it would not be good enough. I could not get hold of a fitter before camp, so have ended up with a new saddle, fitted by template, being couriered over on a sale or return basis today!
Looking at this photos (as opposed to the first one) I would say that a saddler would say it was within tolerance (especially as secondhand already). I do think, on the second set of photos that yes, it would be reasonable to sell. I would stick it on ebay or Faceache.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
You can't actually tell much from those photos at all. There is a lack of panel contact, the rear panels are a tiny bit asymmetric, I'd have to see it in the flesh to tell more. It looks overflocked, and if overflocked through the middle then that can cause lack of panel contact at the back. Probably too curvy in the tree but please get a ground line in, ie a photo of the whole horse and the ground, get in closer to the neck to show tree angle, and make sure the front edge of the tree points is 2-3 fingers behind the scapula rear edge on both wide...then girth up.
Asymmetry of horse and rider, saddle slipping as a result (sometimes it's because the saddle is wrong, clearly, but far from always) is the biggest issue with saddle fitting, and so many adjustments are just topping up the flocking on the side it gets compressed ad infinitum. It means your saddle is always in some state of asymmetry and it can only stay symmetrical for a very short time if this pattern isn't fixed. This can even twist trees, and in months, not years.
Asymmetry of horse and rider, saddle slipping as a result (sometimes it's because the saddle is wrong, clearly, but far from always) is the biggest issue with saddle fitting, and so many adjustments are just topping up the flocking on the side it gets compressed ad infinitum. It means your saddle is always in some state of asymmetry and it can only stay symmetrical for a very short time if this pattern isn't fixed. This can even twist trees, and in months, not years.
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
I’d agree that hands on in person is the only way to tell for sure, but those pics certainly give some information, and even if the saddle was placed a little further back I can’t see it making much difference. Given the fit in front, the lack of panel contact at the back, wouldn’t you think that if it’s overflocked in the middle there would be more lift behind and the side view wouldn’t show such an imbalance on that plane?
Re asymmetry (saddle/horse/rider) the problem with saddles is that we’re putting a more or less rigid structure into a living, breathing, changing animal, and then topping it off with a living, breathing, changing human whose skill as a rider is also extremely variable, so it’s a flipping nightmare really. But basic saddle fitting techniques seem to be beyond an alarming number of fitters, and a lot of riders are depending on (and paying for) their advice.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
I’m not entirely sure. I believe it was originally medium or med:wide and has been altered by one size which is all they can do.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
I am planning on popping to a local saddlery today and getting an opinion in person, obviously not on the horse but a combo of photos and saddle in reality just to give me more of an idea.
After work before I go I will try and get better pictures, with a ground line, that will be useful for them aswell.
I’m so annoyed at myself for not just manning up and saying if I’m not happy, I find that very difficult with professionals.
After work before I go I will try and get better pictures, with a ground line, that will be useful for them aswell.
I’m so annoyed at myself for not just manning up and saying if I’m not happy, I find that very difficult with professionals.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
As far as saddle fitters go, I’m now in a complete dilemma.
How on earth do I find someone now?
This person was highly recommended by several friends personally and I’ve seen the name crop up repeatedly being recommended online.
They are a qualified fitter and master saddler.
To top it all off they are really lovely and pleasant to deal with, and have known the horse far longer than I have!
How on earth do I find someone now?
This person was highly recommended by several friends personally and I’ve seen the name crop up repeatedly being recommended online.
They are a qualified fitter and master saddler.
To top it all off they are really lovely and pleasant to deal with, and have known the horse far longer than I have!
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
Another to add! Knowing I have a problem I do try to correct it and instructors in the past say I look straight (I don’t feel it)
I’m always very aware of keeping the saddle and myself straight as in if I’m on and it’s tilted I’d fix that not a carry on and my eye is constantly on it.
I’m always very aware of keeping the saddle and myself straight as in if I’m on and it’s tilted I’d fix that not a carry on and my eye is constantly on it.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
You're probably right, but it's just not possible to know 100%. As a professional I have to look at it that way, I think it highly likely the tree and panel is the wrong shape, but you just can't be certain from this sort of photo, and without ideally checking that flocking in the middle. With a young horse that's going to change shape there is nearly always some compromise in fundamental shape of the saddle but it's what can be padded/shimmed to keep them happy (flatter tree usually, less flocking, a little too wide than a little too narrow etc) but you have to be able to see/feel all of that to make the decision.
You have two weeks to make a complaint or challenge a professional, in most cases. Have a think, drop them a message, say you're concerned, can they reassure you, or could they please pop back out as you don't think it's working because of X.
So that's evidence to say that any saddle slip could be more down to the saddle, or the horse, than you, but there's straight(ish) as seen by a regular trainer, and truly straight, which to be fair none of us are, but the closer we can get to that the better of course. The horse-saddle-rider equation is a lot more complex than even some saddle fitters realise - for instance Centaur broadly say that horse asymmetry accounts for the vast majority of saddle slip, but how does the horse get and stay wonky?! We at least influence that, so it's very circular and I think trying to draw out causality isn't always helpful.
I do think it's a saddle fit issue, but I have to be a stickler and say what can and what can't be seen from certain photos, and what absolutely needs hands on attention to diagnose.
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
And that's another thing isn't it, so many people (saddlers, fitters and riders) believe that shimming and balancing is the work of the devil and that a saddle has to fit day in day out as is.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Drives me nuts. Cotton numnahs under "well fitting saddles" are not the only answer. I like a good remedial pad for most horses to be fair, they're not supposed to carry us and what a saddle panel can do in terms of shock absorption can be very limited. Stability has to be a priority when selecting one, and I always say, be very clear about what you want a pad to do, then do your research, then get your saddle refitted as necessary!
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
First saddle showing the whole horse and better neck as requested
sbloom
Well-Known Member
First saddle definitely tipping back, looks worse on the nearside which isn't uncommon, it matches the very common rotation of the horse's ribcage to the right. I can't tell the tree angle I'm afraid, it's a tricky photo to take, even the example that I took isn't in quite close enough but you're trying to show the whole saddle wrapping around one side of the horse, taken as directly from the side of the neck as possible - https://www.ahsaddles.com/photos-for-a-saddle-adjustment
The panels on it are making better contact at the back than it looked in the first photos, everything changes when we girth up but it's massively out of balance, and I think the girth straps will work against you.
The darker saddle is in better balance but the tree/panel combo looks too curvy. Again can't tell the width, sorry.
The panels on it are making better contact at the back than it looked in the first photos, everything changes when we girth up but it's massively out of balance, and I think the girth straps will work against you.
The darker saddle is in better balance but the tree/panel combo looks too curvy. Again can't tell the width, sorry.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
Thanks, just to confirm when you say the first saddle, do you mean the original- the K2 that I asked about originally or the Ideal which is first on the above post?
flying_high
Well-Known Member
Not Sbloom but I think she is only commenting on the two sets of recent pictures that show full horse.
I also think the yellow saddle is tipping back. All the weight would be in the cantle area. I'd not ride in that saddle.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
Might widening it help? Bringing it down at the front
sbloom
Well-Known Member
You just can't say - for a saddle I had fitted myself, knew the horse and the tree/panel set up I could say whether I thought widening would work or not, but occasionally Id be wrong, hands on is the only way. Widening to rebalance may reveal other issues with the fit and cause other problems. It looks like it needs to come down maybe 2-3 cm which is likely to be 1-2 tree sizes, which can't be guaranteed not to affect the rest of the fit, and would at minimum need significant flocking adjustments.
And yes, Impala tipping back massively (confused myself as to the first set of photos and what they showed initially), Albion looks roughly in balance but too curvy, probably.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
An attempt at that angle with both.
So I suppose my question now is that is this saddle a saddle that has just altered too much since I’ve had it, a horse that’s changed shape in which case I can go back to the saddler who I got it from and px for something else
OR is it a saddle that’s totally wrong for the horse meaning I need to go elsewhere and start afresh
Or worst case of it a faulty saddle
So I suppose my question now is that is this saddle a saddle that has just altered too much since I’ve had it, a horse that’s changed shape in which case I can go back to the saddler who I got it from and px for something else
OR is it a saddle that’s totally wrong for the horse meaning I need to go elsewhere and start afresh
Or worst case of it a faulty saddle