Saddle fitting help needed (and sneaky condition advice!) - photos

Orchardbeck

Orchardbeck

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Hi, further to my previous posts about my pony's saddle, I have taken some pics to try and help illustrate the problems we may or may not be having. Although I have had 2 saddle fitter visits in 6 months and have been in frequent telephone contact with them in between I'd be really grateful if you could take a look and tell me what you think.

Yas is 22 and has had little work over the last 2 years, and mostly did endurance before that - lots of fast work in straight lines. I'm not expecting miracles, I just want to make sure she is comfy. We hack and want to do RC low level dressage.

I'm afraid I don't know how to make these smaller! Just to clarify, the saddle was fitted with a medium gullet to cope with Yas' high wither, it is a cob saddle so has shorter points, but a 17 inch seat - the cob models apparently are designed to have broader panels to allow for a longer seat in a smaller space.The 17 inch Thorowgood GPD looked too long for her, according to my fitter, which would have normal width panels, but longer points. We use the point strap and the third girth straps, with a humane girth. She is an Arab PB with big, set back shoulders and is croup high

He advised me to use a Prolite pad, and a rear riser to lift the back panels, as well as pad the wither area so I bought a Prolite adjustable tri pad (six sections), but she is starting to get rubs on her back behind the panels, and I'm just not confident this set up is right for her.

She is moulting as you can see from the pics - I just took the pics quickly whilst I had five mins hence her scruffiness! I was also on my own so couldn't get one of me in the saddle, but I'll get my hubby to take one when he comes in. I'd love to hear your opinions, good or bad, not only of her saddle, but also of her condition in general.

One of Yas naked, so you can see her wither and back conformation (lots of muscle wastage and high withers, and also croup high:


Yas' back and broad ribcage:
[URL="[IMG]http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh538/snorman1/Yasbackconformation.jpg[/IMG]"]

With saddle girthed up:
[URL="[IMG]http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh538/snorman1/Yassaddle6.jpg[/IMG]"]

Panel contact behind the shoulder:
[URL="[IMG]http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh538/snorman1/Yassaddle2.jpg[/IMG]"]

Rear panel contact:
[URL="[IMG]http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh538/snorman1/Yassaddle3.jpg[/IMG]"]

View from the back:
[URL="[IMG]http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh538/snorman1/Yassaddle10.jpg[/IMG]"]

One more to show the balance:
[URL="[IMG]http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh538/snorman1/Yassaddle8.jpg[/IMG]"]
 
I should have added, I measured her wither profile last week with a flexi curve and changed the gullet to a medium wide, as she looked to have put on a bit of condition with being out 24hrs (I'm keeping a close eye on her!).
 
Not always easy tp tell from a photos but it wouldn't be particulalry happy with that saddle.

It's not a great model for her.

It looks too narrow to start with. The points don't match her back and there's far more wither clearance than I'd expect to see with a wither horse in a cob saddle. The balance is kind of OK (maybe a little high in front) but that's because the gusset at the back is so deep. I suspect the saddlers put a narrower gullet in to balance the depp panels.

The panels are over flocked and too deep (a really comon issue in T4's) and they're too long. She has a decent lenght of back but most if it's loins, so once the shoulders push the saddle back, it will rub on her loins (hence you gettting hair loss). The rubbing her loins is also not helped by her slight sway back and the saddle being very flat: it looks like it's bridging a little.

The panels at the back are too wide and flat for her: she's got fairly narrow, sloped loins and the panels are overhanding the edge. That also won't help with the saddle swinging from side to side in trot, and will make bending uncomfortable for her.

If you've already bought that saddle the first thing I'd do is have some flocking taken out and put a wider gullet is. That will make it less perched, help the panels mould to her shape better, drop the front (you only need wither clearance, not fingers depth worth!) and also make the tree a little more curved.

Overall I'd try a different saddle though.

Assuming you're looking at sythnetic saddle budget range: The horrible style old wintec 500 may well sit ok on her: they have a fairly curved tree (usually far to banana for most horses!) and sloped panels. They do however come up REALLY big so it would be a 16" you'd need to try (rides like a 16.5" thought!).

The new wintec GP would def be worth a look at too. Shorter panels wider panels, better tree. They sit well on many horses.

And old style griffin or maxam may fit well too (if you can get ahold of one).

There are also plenty of second hand saddle that would suit her too but finding one is a pain in the ass!

Her condition is perfect. :D She could do with a little more muscle but no more weight!
 
Have a look at the Balance International website. Your horse has wastage behind the withers and the Balance system can help to make the horse much more comfortable while encouraging muscle to build.
 
Two things that stand out to me, she is not really croup high just stronger over her loins than her shoulders/ behind withers where there is some wastage, that should improve if the saddle is not too narrow and restrictive.
Secondly if you put a rear riser under that saddle it will tip you forward, the saddle is level with nothing under it and I would even prefer less at the back than there is now, unless the flocking is very soft. It does look rather narrow along her spine and any extra padding will make it more narrow.

Humane girths may not be the best for her back, especially used on the point straps, a physio I know went into a large yard and told the YM to burn the lot, in her view they are far from humane and cause a lot of pressure points.
 
be positive said:
Humane girths may not be the best for her back, especially used on the point straps, a physio I know went into a large yard and told the YM to burn the lot, in her view they are far from humane and cause a lot of pressure points.
Click to expand...

That's really interesting - Balance have a similar thing about elasticated girths! They say that although in theory they are a good idea, most people tend to over-tighten them and then because of the slight give, the horse has the same strong pressure from the girth no matter how it moves. With 'solid' girths, the pressure changes as the horse moves.
 
soloequestrian said:
That's really interesting - Balance have a similar thing about elasticated girths! They say that although in theory they are a good idea, most people tend to over-tighten them and then because of the slight give, the horse has the same strong pressure from the girth no matter how it moves. With 'solid' girths, the pressure changes as the horse moves.
Click to expand...

I have just stopped using elastic, the horse is going so much better in a plain leather girth which cannot be overtightened.
 
The panels are over flocked and too deep (a really comon issue in T4's) and they're too long. She has a decent lenght of back but most if it's loins, so once the shoulders push the saddle back, it will rub on her loins (hence you gettting hair loss). The rubbing her loins is also not helped by her slight sway back and the saddle being very flat: it looks like it's bridging a little.

The panels at the back are too wide and flat for her: she's got fairly narrow, sloped loins and the panels are overhanding the edge. That also won't help with the saddle swinging from side to side in trot, and will make bending uncomfortable for her."
Click to expand...

Kallibear - thank you very much for your analysis - what you have said there is exactly what I felt about it, but couldn't really describe. I should also have added that the fitter added shims above the panels to give them MORE lift as he said it sat too low at the back - and added extra flocking in the centre, to give it more contact with her dippy back. She has put on a little bit of weight since then.

Be Positive - I really dislike riding in the riser, in fact I have taken the rear shims out of the Prolite pad as it feels awful, like I'm going to fall off the front. I've been weighing up the pros and cons of elasticated/non elasticated girths for a while too and I'm still undecided.

Solo Equestrian - I actually had a look at the Balance website two days ago, and that is probably what we need to do...now to remortgage the house...[/QUOTE]
 
Riders should be trained not to over tighten elasticated girths! I don't like humane girths at all - they concentrate pressure on the dees on a very sensitive area plus the extra risk with girth straps or the girth itself breaking. The only good elasticated girths, and I prefer them on most horses, are those with very strong elastic on both ends, and the rider should be shown where to tighten them to.

The saddle just looks wrong in lots of minor ways. I don't think it is too high at the back, but the flat tree and flattish panels are driving the back edge into her back. If you lift the back of the saddle I suspect it will bridge. Without a rider in the plate it is fractionally pommel high in my opinion. That may change once you are in the saddle, the balance can alter.

I agree that she may need padding as she has muscle loss, but I'm not a great fan of Prolite, and I'd be looking to pad the front more than the back in all likelihood, but you need a saddle that fits better in the first place so that you can shim the front without tipping it back out of balance.
 
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Orchardbeck said:
I should also have added that the fitter added shims above the panels to give them MORE lift as he said it sat too low at the back - and added extra flocking in the centre, to give it more contact with her dippy back. She has put on a little bit of weight since then.
Click to expand...

The back is still very slightly lower than the front (although as sbloom said, it will prob bed down a little at the front). But that's because the front is too high, NOT because the back is too shallow. The extra flocking in the middle will help with the curve, but it's masking the issue, not really solving it: it tree is really too flat for her shape of back.

Putting a raiser pad will just push you even further away from her, on an already perched saddle. It will only make the saddle more unstable and move more.
 
Thanks, it might be worth a try.

Do you know if there are any saddles in leather that follow a similar shape tree to the synthetic ones you mentioned Kallibear? Its so annoying, I had her in a 16.5 inch griffin pony club before this one, then a 16.5 wintec before that, but I hated the stirrup position, and didn't really like the saddle much. However I wonder if the old wintec 500 dressage version may be different in the leg position, but with the curvy tree?
 
From the photo's, it is clear that your horse seems to have some muscle atrophy behind the wither and along the back.

The saddle seems to be a good size for her, but I would suggest that it is too narrow at the front.

The prolite pad is to 'put back' the muscle that is atrophied, but the saddle fits too tight for that to happen.

Suggest you widen it more and put an extra shim in the front and back pockets only of the prolite tri. This will encourage your horse to lift the back and build up muscle.
 
Thanks SBloom - out of interest, what kind of girth do you recommend? I used to use the thorowgood ones with elastic on one end but put them on eBay because I didn't like them, I did the same with the thinner humane girth, I thought the buckle part didn't have enough support underneith so would have caused pressure.

I'm going to try a wintec 500 dressage saddle on her in a 16 inch seat, with probably a wide gullet and see what that is like, it might just be the st

Housemouse - thanks too. My saddler said to think of the prolite in that way, as replacing lost muscle, but then I guess any kind of pad would, sheepskin etc.
 
Sorry, my phone sent the post when it was half finished - should have read, it might be the set up we need, and it's not too much of an expense if it doesn't work out.
 
Orchardbeck said:
Thanks SBloom - out of interest, what kind of girth do you recommend?
Click to expand...
We only use our own design of Atherston - wide, softly padded and strong elastic at both ends. Suits most horses and ponies in our experience.

Housemouse said:
From the photo's, it is clear that your horse seems to have some muscle atrophy behind the wither and along the back.

The saddle seems to be a good size for her, but I would suggest that it is too narrow at the front.

The prolite pad is to 'put back' the muscle that is atrophied, but the saddle fits too tight for that to happen.

Suggest you widen it more and put an extra shim in the front and back pockets only of the prolite tri. This will encourage your horse to lift the back and build up muscle.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of that and although widening it would help reduce bridging, only shimming at the front and back (something I commonly do for flat backed horses and ponies though I sculpt the thin layered shims in the Mattes pads unlike the rather blunt Prolite shims) will only add to any bridging issues.

OB I will pm you.
 
You can pretty much always find a saddle bridging when the horse is standing still, but as the horse moves, the horse needs to lift and drop its back as the whole body moves and swings through the gaits.

For this reason, there needs to be space under the saddle allowing for the lift. if there is no bridging, then there is likely no space for back movement.

There is the senario where the saddle is too tight at the back, doesn't touch the horses back at any time and the back of the panels dig into the loin area. This is undesirable and should not be confused with a minimal bridging effect.
 
Agreed that the saddle is just not sitting right. One quick way to tell if the saddle is balanced or not: Take a pencil and let it roll from the back of the saddle. If the saddle is balanced, it should come to a stop in the middle of the saddle. If it doesn't, the saddle is unbalanced.
 
Housemouse said:
You can pretty much always find a saddle bridging when the horse is standing still, but as the horse moves, the horse needs to lift and drop its back as the whole body moves and swings through the gaits.

For this reason, there needs to be space under the saddle allowing for the lift. if there is no bridging, then there is likely no space for back movement.

There is the senario where the saddle is too tight at the back, doesn't touch the horses back at any time and the back of the panels dig into the loin area. This is undesirable and should not be confused with a minimal bridging effect.
Click to expand...

Most saddles I fit have a fraction of room under the middle when the horse is standing but I think this will truly bridge ie not fit dynamically. If you fit to the static back then usually it will rock and lift at the back but I think this is a real case of bridging.

ContinentalRescue said:
Agreed that the saddle is just not sitting right. One quick way to tell if the saddle is balanced or not: Take a pencil and let it roll from the back of the saddle. If the saddle is balanced, it should come to a stop in the middle of the saddle. If it doesn't, the saddle is unbalanced.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's as simple as that. I explain it thus - that usually the deepest part of the seat is NEAR the middle, between front and back, and will show a short length of flatness, less curve than pommel and cantle before and after it. This part must be parallel with the ground. Once you have this, in the "cross ties" you can assess how the flap looks, plus how much higher the cantle is than the pommel (it can vary a lot), so that you can assess either from photos, or using good eyes on the ground, whether the balance is correct with a rider in the saddle - it can often change.
 
just an addition re girths as my boy doesn't get on with leather ;) aerborn make double end elastic girths in the plastic waffle material..
 
Thanks Ester, we might give that one a try, the waffle material seems to suit her best.

This morning I took out the medium gullet and replaced it with an Wide (orange) one, and removed the shims from above the panels. I have taken some more photos, with and without pads so you can see - I'm still not happy with it - it still seems to look high above the withers, and the back panels now seem to 'float' above her back, when no front riser was used.

Rather than post photos individually, I'll try and put a link to the album - if you view the slideshow you can see what thickness of Prolite pad I have used in each photo. I haven't ridden her in it, again as I am not happy with it.

[URL="
IMG-20120606-00152.jpg
"

[URL="
IMG-20120606-00153.jpg
"

Ok I'm struggling with the album link - please bear with me!
 
I'm of no real help but just to say I sympathise - I tried a synthetic saddle on my chap and it just perched there - put the xxwide gullet in and it still perched - nightmare.

It does look like the back of the saddle will rub - do you have any friends saddles you can try just to see if the shape suits a bit more before you make any expensive decisions ?

Good luck
 
I'm trying to get hold of an old style Wintec, you'd think it would be easy but noone seems to have a 16 or 16.5 inch hanging around (I used to have one, can't believe it!). I tried a 17 inch on her last year but when I think back, the tree shape was ok, it was just too long which was why it wasn't right.

In the last year I have tried two 17" T6s (Med and Wide), a 17" Wintec 500 VSD, a 17" Wintec 500 GP, a 17" Med Thorowgood Griffin and a 16.5" m/w Griffin Pony Club, which fitted her the best, but I always worried it was too small and the panels were too small. Should have kept it!

I am only 5'1" so a smaller seat doesn't worry me too much, I always felt better in the smaller Wintec and PC saddles, just the fitter said each time I went in, oh you definitely need a 17"... How to make you feel guilty! I'm 9 1/2stone - time for the serious dieting to start I think!
 
http://s1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh538/snorman1/Yasmins%20saddle%20June%202012

Width looks a bit better but balance isn't great. Shims at the back will help.

However the panels width at the back is too wide and flat and no amount of shimming etc will help.

At 5'1 you will swim in a 17" Wintec! I'm 5'8 and find them a comfortable size! :eek: They come up huge. And very long in the panel. Being too long makes many saddles that would otherwise be a good fit, sit funny.
 
Thanks Kallibear, I had a quick walk around the paddock tonight with the prolite pad and the thin riser, she was ok at first and then I could tell she wasn't up for it, the panels are just all wrong at the back, and she is reluctant to bend - she is better bareback, so we abandoned things pretty sharpish.

You're dead right about swimming in a 17 inch wintec, I rode two of my friend's horses in two separate endurance rides (32km and 40km) in her saddle and it was horrendous - thank god I had stirrup cages on. I also tried my neighbour's 17.5 one on her thoroughbred and it was ridiculous on me, I slipped about all over the place!

I feel much less guilty about downsizing again now!
 
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