Saddle fitting issues (still). Help!

lindsayH

lindsayH

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Well, my 'filly' turns 6 today and is still unbroken as I still can't find a saddle that fits. Our latest attempt is a Kent and Masters cob, as suggested by the latest fitter (M Crippen) which to be fair has a much better (flatter) tree shape but I still have many of the same issues as before. I haven't had him (or anyone else) out to fine tune the fit yet because I've been wondering if it's worth it. I probably will. The tree width looks pretty good but possibly could go a little wider. I still have the problem that everything you put on her back ends up on her shoulder. She has a forward girth groove an I'm also starting to think she may be a smidgen croup high. I just don't understand how it is physically possible to fit a saddle to a horse if the point of their shoulder is further back than their girth groove. I'm also starting to wonder if I'm looking for perfect saddle fit that doesn't exist. Hundreds of pounds, dozens of saddles and 4 or 5 saddle fitters later and I'm in despair. I don't suppose anyone has any ideas, or just some sympathy? :-D
Also, can anyone find me a video of a horse (pref native type rather than dressage warmblood) being lunged in a well fitting saddle to give me an idea of movement level I should be looking for? My ideas seem to be SO out of line with the saddle fitters I've had...

I would add a photo but I can't remember how, sorry.
 
I always get my saddles custom made for my horse (Last one was for a traditional Welsh Section D). I use Red Rae in Ware Hertfordshire.
 
The point of the shoulder cannot be further back than the girth groove, it is not possible.

I can't help with video but I would not really want to see much movement at all even with no weight in the saddle it should not bounce on the back or move forward, are the saddle too wide causing them to move forward rather than not being wide enough. Look into the girthing arrangement, sometimes using different straps helps, non elastic girths and the shaped ones often with elastic at the centre rather than ends move less.
I have found Ideal saddles good for flat backed natives although I think a well used secondhand saddle is often the best option as they sit down more quickly than a new one will, also not too much flocking to push against or away from the back, many saddles are overstuffed and sit too high, I would rather see a softly flocked saddle with a pad under it.
 
Thanks guys! I did think about getting one made but decided against it because:
- Expense (lol, could have bought two by now!)
- Unbacked horse changing shape (are any made to measures at the bottom end of the market adjustable?)
- Massive amount of depreciation
- They aren't guaranteed to fit and are not a lot of use if they don't. The two I've had made in the past weren't a perfect fit.
I have tried quite a lot of new saddles but decided on used, pretty much for the reasons Be Positive states above. I'm really not a fan of elastic girths, but haven't tried one with elastic in the middle. I have tried all girthing strap arrangements (depending on the saddle), but worry a bit about balance straps. Agree with the flocking, SO many second hand saddles I've seen are overstuffed.
I swear, on my pony, it looks like her girth groove is further forward than the point of her shoulder, but maybe it is an optical illusion. Am now staring at all the photos I have of her :-D
 
Hi Lindsay,

Have you thought about getting a treeless saddle? I went through several saddles as my PRE mare that we rescued changed shape and gained weight. I couldn't get anything to fit her. So she was unrideable for the best part of a year. I deliberately got a treeless saddle in the end that was adjustable if she continued to gain weight or muscle up. It was the best thing I did. Just a thought :)
 
MDB said:
Hi Lindsay,

Have you thought about getting a treeless saddle? I went through several saddles as my PRE mare that we rescued changed shape and gained weight. I couldn't get anything to fit her. So she was unrideable for the best part of a year. I deliberately got a treeless saddle in the end that was adjustable if she continued to gain weight or muscle up. It was the best thing I did. Just a thought :)
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Agree with trying treeless, or maybe soft tree. I had endless problems with my horse until I tried a HM flexEE, it has a flexible leather tree and is wonderful, solved all our problems, looks conventional too.
Edited to say think you mean top of shoulder blade? point of shoulder is right forwards at the other end of the shoulder blade, nearly on the chest, think that's where the confusion is!
 
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Another advocate for treeless. It's a minefield of a subject though which will need careful research but there is load of info on previous threads that ultimately helped me to make the decision. Treeless saddles have come on a lot and have put an end to saddle fitting woes for a lot of people. Good luck 😊
 
Lol I think you maybe need to Google where the point of shoulder is! It is on the front of the body ie the bottom edge of the scapula

Do you have a side on pic of your horse?
 
Do you mean point of shoulder op?

Bum high, no shoulders, big bellied/rib cage, forwards girth groove anglo mare requires:
perfect saddle tree (selected for her from ideal's collection)
point strap
ideal affinity F2 girth
stephens gel-eze pad
and if she stops sharp at a showjump the saddle is still inclined to shift.

Don't have any lungeing with saddle vids I'm afraid but can tell you Frank moves his a fair bit and his tree is fitted to template and flocked by a superb saddler.
 
The problem is not that perfect saddle fit is a myth, it is that some breeds were historically bred for driving not riding. There is a saddle out there for your horse somewhere that fits. Maybe you need a crupper if she is croup high? If they are still available. I saw them a bit as a child usually on round ponies but never see one now apart from on a harness.
 
Hopefully sbloom will see this thread. She/he?!(sorry!) has lots of experience fitting your type of Pony AFAIK
 
Haha all these problems are sounding too familiar. Sorry to but in but I have a saddle that in theory is the perfect fit but is still flying forewords and I am beginning to despair. Mine has no shoulders or whither really and has a fairly flat back. I am now beginning to be swayed by the treeless argument but I don't know much about them and I heard you can't jump in them? I am jumping 90/100 courses and don't know if they would cope for that? Also how much are they roughly
 
We decided on Solution saddles for our youngsters, partly because in the past we have lost money changing saddles as young horses have grown,/changed shape. I am absolutely thrilled because my older made is moving much more freely than ever before.
They are not cheap but don't seem so expensive when you think of buying a new saddle every few months,
 
How a saddle looks on the lunge will vary massively, the TG cob isn't super flat and has quite a deep panel and pronounced rear gusset which on a croup high horse, or even if they're level with shape to their back, can be at the wrong angle for a "shapely" croup, as well as making the saddle act too long, even if it's not beyond the last rib. An upswept panel shape and flatter tree, with a point strap, should work. I have fitted several saddles where the girth comes forwards of the front of the saddle. I will say that this is where the horse's weight most comes into play, not that it causes a problem with getting a saddle to fit on the actual part of the back it sits on (though obviously a weight gain may affect the current well fitting saddle) but it's the widening and deepening rear ribcage that sends the girth groove even more forwards and makes it more pronounced, meaning there is a huge pressure on the back of the saddle as well. Much more likely to move forwards.
 
Sadly in Frank's case it is all ribcage, no extra pounds :p you can see his ribs in this pic but also where his girth groove is compared to his elbows.

11046263_10156173196040438_6531038461371867636_n.jpg


If anything I think it looks worse now/more pronounced than when he was very fat (on purchase)
1934885_223362910437_2731227_n.jpg
 
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We have our treeless saddles specially made by my instructors saddler. The closest thing that I can see in design which is ready made is the Thorn saddle pads - they aren't exactly the same but very similar. Ours are less straight cut and have a bit more padding/substance to them. But we jump, hack do everything you would in a normal saddle and the best thing is we NEVER have saddle fitting issues - they just always fit! Best thing is - it certainly sorts your riding position out for the good!

http://www.thornsaddles-pads.co.uk/saddle-pads.html
 
Feel your pain. Have a wide mare but high whither and shoulder (Welsh X). I struck gold with an old close contact saddle that with flocking saddler got to fit. She just always have to have a good sheepskin underneath.

She said if I was prepared to spend the money then custom made but I don't have that kind of money. Other option was the wide thorowgood TB but I hate hate hate synthetic. Was gutted as H&C didn't fit which is what I saved up for :(
 
sbloom said:
How a saddle looks on the lunge will vary massively, the TG cob isn't super flat and has quite a deep panel and pronounced rear gusset which on a croup high horse, or even if they're level with shape to their back, can be at the wrong angle for a "shapely" croup, as well as making the saddle act too long, even if it's not beyond the last rib. An upswept panel shape and flatter tree, with a point strap, should work. I have fitted several saddles where the girth comes forwards of the front of the saddle. I will say that this is where the horse's weight most comes into play, not that it causes a problem with getting a saddle to fit on the actual part of the back it sits on (though obviously a weight gain may affect the current well fitting saddle) but it's the widening and deepening rear ribcage that sends the girth groove even more forwards and makes it more pronounced, meaning there is a huge pressure on the back of the saddle as well. Much more likely to move forwards.
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SBLOOM. Do you ever come to Cornwall ?
 
ponies4ever said:
Haha all these problems are sounding too familiar. Sorry to but in but I have a saddle that in theory is the perfect fit but is still flying forewords and I am beginning to despair. Mine has no shoulders or whither really and has a fairly flat back. I am now beginning to be swayed by the treeless argument but I don't know much about them and I heard you can't jump in them? I am jumping 90/100 courses and don't know if they would cope for that? Also how much are they roughly
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http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...s-a-solution-saddle&highlight=solution+saddle

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CD5453A3-E179-4445-8833-18E6FFED2B4F_zps5lmgv6wm.png


The main reason I went for solution was their trial facilities (£50 for fitting and £50 per week to rent a brand new saddle - exactly want I would be buying should I decide if was what I needed, furthermore the consultation and two weeks rental was refunded on purchase) and excellent customer service - the fitter was there for 5 hours for the first fitting making sure I got the right one to trial. Due to the previous brand new fitted to her saddle being so terrible ("specialist flat cob tree" yet the points were sticking directly into her shoulders which forced it back and rubbed a whacking great hole in her back!) my horse was naturally very suspicious and worried about saddles and it took that long for her to realise that it wasn't going to cause her pain any more.

Had I decided the saddle was no good (and I was able to use it normally during the trial), it would have just cost me the postage back to them and £150 for the trial and fitting. I've wasted the same on an hours saddle fitting with certain other companies. Therefore after the terrible worries of the previous very expensive saddle which did not fit, this was a much better option for me and her. I was quite ready for it not to work, indeed it wasn't until near the end when we got the right one and she suddenly went OK this is it! (The horse not the fitter!) and that feeling was just the best.

I certainly would not try to sway anyone to treeless, but if you want to try it, knowing you can for such a small outlay is in my opinion, helpful!
 
ester said:
Sadly in Frank's case it is all ribcage, no extra pounds :p you can see his ribs in this pic but also where his girth groove is compared to his elbows.

11046263_10156173196040438_6531038461371867636_n.jpg


If anything I think it looks worse now/more pronounced than when he was very fat (on purchase)
1934885_223362910437_2731227_n.jpg
Click to expand...


I think the wither has become more distinct and more laid back, the point of shoulder is still in the same place though. And yes, it does show just how far forwards the girth groove can be, many of my customers horses look like that :)
 
I think we can describe him as mutton withered in the first one, he practically wobbled when he walked :p

I just found it interesting because actually he didn't used to be so tricky to girth as he is now, though I think some of that is extra elbow bagginess - if he gets girth rubs they travel vertically down the back of his leg.
 
My mare has a short, flat back, minimal wither, large shoulders, barrel chest and a forward girth groove, she is also slightly croup high. I ride her now in a Barnsby show saddle which is a good quality, compact saddle. I also have an ergonomic girth (saddle company-leather, cost approx £95). She is 7 years old and has been in this saddle for approx 18 months (checked frequently) and it still fits well-she had been through quite a few before this. I fortunately have an excellent local saddle fitter and an extremely sensitive mare who let's me know immediately when things need adjusting.
I would not personally entertain a treeless option, as there are many different makes and standards out there which are not immediately reflected in the price.
If you want to consider a native pony saddle, I would recommend you speak only to sbloom on here and follow her recommendation. I didn't (it was a couple of years ago and I was not so well read on saddle fit then!), and it was an expensive mistake!
 
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