Saddle refund

Cortez said:
No I wouldn't be shocked ;). I've been present when so called fitters were at work.....many (most?) are really just saddle salesmen. I have a selection of saddles (3) and have used them with the vast majority of horses I've had in my lifetime (hundreds - I'm an ex-pro trainer who used to break horses for a living), and I have never had a horse with a sore back. A couple of horses have ultimately needed hand made saddles, but I really mean a couple (2). The number of saddles people go through when owning even just one horse must gladden the hearts of saddle salesmen everywhere (which of course is exactly the point). You won't find all this saddle swapping going on in pro yards either; they have more experience (and sense) than the average leisure rider.
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The stupid thing is I've rarely had saddlers out
I've bought and sold a few project horses and always used my trusty old gp on everything I've had maybe sometimes with a pad etc and never had any problems
I used the old gp on this horse with a poly pad and this worked fine for 6 months (and is the saddle I'm using now with no problems) but when I decided to keep the horse and ask more of her I thought I'd get her own saddle , how wrong was I !
 
angelish said:
It's terrible isn't it :(
These people aren't just causing the horses pain and discomfort there also putting us in danger too !
I've been horrified by what I've seen over the past few months
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You sound as if you have a grasp of the basics of saddle fit - why don't you follow your instincts? I actually think that people should take a bit of responsibility for their own gullibility and educate themselves, I have seen a lot of people being ripped off and led down an extremely expensive path by either ignorant or unscrupulous saddle merchants.

Other people, of course, just like buying saddles....
 
I have learnt so much from the saddler I have now I really am clear and understand what the saddle can achieve and what you have manage round for a while .
So many advances have been made with saddles when I started out horses with huge white marks on the back where very very common you see that much less now .
But the complexity has increased more choice more types more marketing more everything
 
Goldenstar said:
I have learnt so much from the saddler I have now I really am clear and understand what the saddle can achieve and what you have manage round for a while .
So many advances have been made with saddles when I started out horses with huge white marks on the back where very very common you see that much less now .
But the complexity has increased more choice more types more marketing more everything
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I think saddles have become better now with different shaped panels and trees etc but I think some saddle fitters are still not using what is available to them and are just wanting to make a quick profit
I do have faith in the new saddle fitter I have now but only really as she has assured me if I'm not happy with the saddle that is coming I can return it no questions asked within two weeks even though it is being built from templates etc
I feel she is confident it will fit her but will just have to wait and see !
 
I wish we could divorce saddle fitting from saddle selling. The whole thing gets corrupted and nobody knows who they can trust.

Saddle fitting was much better when the fitter turned up with a vanload of second hand saddles and tried them all on to get the best fit.

Second hand saddles now seem to be very much out of fashion. Personally, I prefer them. They are much cheaper and somebody else has already worn them in for me.
 
ycbm said:
I wish we could divorce saddle fitting from saddle selling. The whole thing gets corrupted and nobody knows who they can trust.

Saddle fitting was much better when the fitter turned up with a vanload of second hand saddles and tried them all I to get the best fit.

Second hand saddles now seem to be very much out of fashion. Personally, I prefer them. They are much cheaper and somebody else has already worn them in for me.
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Agree with all of this ^^^ Goodness knows there must be an enormous number of 2nd hand saddles out there these days...............
 
I've tried to get a second hand saddle and failed
I did get a saddler out that had a good range of second hand saddles as I would much prefer second hand but she just didn't seem interested in "fitting" the saddle to my horse
Just plonked saddles on saying go away and try that for a couple of weeks
She wasn't interested in suggesting makes/models that would fit she just also kept trying to sell me new saddles but by the time she'd told me that a bit of bridging didn't really matter I'd lost all faith in her as far as I'm concerned I've got a saddle that bridges and doesn't "quite" fit I really don't need another one !
I just hope I'm not being led on another wild goose chase with this one that's suggesting a dropped panel and other modifications to the gussets etc
Although she did explain everything to me very clearly and explained why my saddle wasn't working
 
angelish said:
I've tried to get a second hand saddle and failed
I did get a saddler out that had a good range of second hand saddles as I would much prefer second hand but she just didn't seem interested in "fitting" the saddle to my horse
Just plonked saddles on saying go away and try that for a couple of weeks
She wasn't interested in suggesting makes/models that would fit she just also kept trying to sell me new saddles but by the time she'd told me that a bit of bridging didn't really matter I'd lost all faith in her as far as I'm concerned I've got a saddle that bridges and doesn't "quite" fit I really don't need another one !
I just hope I'm not being led on another wild goose chase with this one that's suggesting a dropped panel and other modifications to the gussets etc
Although she did explain everything to me very clearly and explained why my saddle wasn't working
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Ah, but you don't make much money on 2nd hand you see.....
 
Cortez said:
Ah, but you don't make much money on 2nd hand you see.....
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Exactly ! And tree shapes in particular saddles must be top secret as you cannot get any info as to what tree in what saddle will suit what shaped back
I was interested in the Harry dabs tb saddles mainly as I'd get a discount with being ror registered but trying to find out about the 7 different tree shapes they have in there dressage saddles or even if it was a tb tree or tb saddle they sold was like banging my head against a brick wall !
 
Cortez said:
Agree with all of this ^^^ Goodness knows there must be an enormous number of 2nd hand saddles out there these days...............
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Somebody near me had a load of empty space, so set up a warehouse full of second-hand saddles. You could leave yours there on consignment and she would take 10% if/when it sold. You could take as many as you wanted to try on, but had to leave the full cost of the saddle as a deposit, and would be refunded all but £20 if you returned it. Alternatively, you could pay a fee and she'd come out with a van with all the saddles you'd selected for you/your saddle fitter to try.

Unfortunately, she didn't publicise it very well, didn't keep an online inventory, and didn't have any kind of logic to where various saddles were in the warehouse so it never really took off and now, due to health issues, she's had to close it.

It's the sort of thing that could have been a fabulous local resource, because she had the space to take pretty much all saddles, not just the good-condition, easily-sold ones that places like Saddles Direct take. It was a fascinating place to poke through, too - a lot of older Heather Moffatt Flexees; all kinds of weird and wonderful dressage saddles, including one with a cantle that went up nearly to my shoulder blades; some lovely old pancake-flat saddles; all sorts of things.
 
Yes, there's tack shop like that on this side of the water (Old Mill Saddlery in Co. Down) that has 100's of saddles on consignment. I defy anyone not to find something that will fit out of that lot!
 
I have bought three saddles without having them fitted, fitted them myself and no issues. Sent a few back for a standard reflock and no issues. I have had saddles fitted also when there has been one side maybe needing s bit more flocking than the other but I do know enough to know when I’m being fobbed off.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
bridging is a serious fault and I'd be seriously peed off if a saddler sold me a saddle that bridged and then expected me to be happy with shimming it! I would give it a go, what do you have to lose?
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Not always true, some horses need to be fitted slightly "light" in the middle, others not. It's only a serious fault if you believe it only comes from too flat a tree which is seldom true, much more likely to be too narrow, too long or high in the rear gussets, or too long, even if not beyond the back rib.

angelish said:
Thank you I think I will give it a go as I have nothing at all to loose
The other saddler I've had out recently tried to convince me the saddle she was trying to sell me "didn't matter if there was some bridging as it normally goes away once girthed up" after I sent that back saying that was bridging !

It's been an absolute nightmare situation I've completely lost all faith in any saddler tbh
I'm currently awaiting a new saddle with modified panels built from a template to fit her so fingers crossed that works , This saddler seems to want to try her best to sort this mess out and find us a saddle to suit
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As I said above, sometimes only having full contact when girthed is what is needed for that horse. But the gap should be tiny, just a FEEL of some space, not air under the saddle.

pansymouse said:
I think we need to get away from the idea that a Master Saddle Fitter is by default a good saddle fitter, it simply means that they have passed the relevant Society of Master Saddlers exams the syllabus of which some of the very best fitters have fundamental questions on.
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The Master Saddle Fitter qualification is supposed to be the pinnacle, another level above the qualified saddle fitter, but I totally agree the SMS qualifications are not the be all and end all.

Goldenstar said:
I have learnt so much from the saddler I have now I really am clear and understand what the saddle can achieve and what you have manage round for a while .
So many advances have been made with saddles when I started out horses with huge white marks on the back where very very common you see that much less now .
But the complexity has increased more choice more types more marketing more everything
Click to expand...

Very true about the white marks, open sores etc, times have changed for the better no matter how frustrating you all find it,

ycbm said:
I wish we could divorce saddle fitting from saddle selling. The whole thing gets corrupted and nobody knows who they can trust.

Saddle fitting was much better when the fitter turned up with a vanload of second hand saddles and tried them all on to get the best fit.

Second hand saddles now seem to be very much out of fashion. Personally, I prefer them. They are much cheaper and somebody else has already worn them in for me.
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Okay so checking saddles only, or only selling second hand saddles, how do we get new saddles into the market to supply tomorrow's second hand saddles? Certainly for me going out with the full range of new stock makes fitting the tricky shapes I do much easier. For all of us sellers want as much money as possible for the saddles they are selling, and buyers want to pay as little as possible. To make a living DOES require a decent profit margin, ask your employer or if it's your business consider your own ROI (return on investment) - that margin has to pay for everything needed to run a business and unless you're selling hundreds and hundreds of decent used saddles you'll struggle to make a living, hence the growth of the direct mass sellers of used saddles. Volume is all, but they also have lower overheads unless they're going out fitting.

angelish said:
Exactly ! And tree shapes in particular saddles must be top secret as you cannot get any info as to what tree in what saddle will suit what shaped back
I was interested in the Harry dabs tb saddles mainly as I'd get a discount with being ror registered but trying to find out about the 7 different tree shapes they have in there dressage saddles or even if it was a tb tree or tb saddle they sold was like banging my head against a brick wall !
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In part secret because often it's commercially sensitive, you don't want to be copied. I do try and be very clear about the sorts of horses each of our trees would fit, but there is no way I can really give a customer enough information for THEM to evaluate it against a tree from another company. Even when you have them side by side two very similar looking trees can fit very differently, then add in panel design....

Overall I broadly disagree with saying that a saddle could never have fitted a horse, unless it's to long, when ribcages seldom change shape by much (can lengthen as the back lifts and flattens, and can shorten as a horse ages and its back drops). I try and say that it's not the sort of tree or panel I'd have fitted to the horse, it's subjective. The biggest issue for customers, and I do hear you, is that just like all other professions there are many different paradigms for saddle fitting, so it's hard to compare fitters and their approaches. If you like dealing with them, they answer your questions in a way that seems coherent and makes sense, and your horse is happy over a few adjustments, then stick with that fitter, no matter anything else.
 
Certainly for me going out with the full range of new stock makes fitting the tricky shapes I do much easier.
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Sbloom, this remark alone marks you out as a cut well above most saddle fitters. The ones I've seen my friends use, all with sky high reputations, some with sky high fitting charges, sell only one make of saddle and don't carry stock of the full range of fittings. I've seen, and heard of, so many people persuaded to buy a new 'made to measure' saddle without ever having even seen a version of the saddle concerned properly fitted on their horse.

You're clearly worth your fees and the profit you make from selling saddles.
 
angelish said:
Hi I bought a new saddle in about July 2017
Master saddler came out took one look at my current saddles and advised neither of them fit my horse (too long)
I had entry fees in etc so allowed myself to be talked into a new saddle that he said would be the solve of all our problems
A week later I had to get him back out as the horse was unhappy , he put a wider gullet in and added shims to the middle to stop it bridging (it's a bates dressage)
I had bought the GP on his advise by this time again fitted by him
Horse is a fairly quirky ex racehorse that can be nappy and naughty
She went better in it after he'd adjusted it so off I went and persevered , to cut a long story short he came back out to check it and made it worse twice costing me £60 a time plus the cost of more shims
The horse bucked me off in this time and was diagnosed with ulcers and also started windsucking
I rang him to let him know I was having problems and he didn't really want to know , I saw him on my yard fitting someone else's horse and he couldn't get away from me quick enough
I've since had two different saddlers out that have said it doesn't fit my horse never going to the panels are the wrong shape
I'm going to loose a lot of money trying to sell
I do realise I've left it a long time but when a professional is telling you it fits and the horse can be quirky I kept trying different shims and pads etc
I'm now using a different saddle and the horse is like a different horse , im actually using one of the saddle he had said didn't fit at all was no good (it has been fitted by a different saddle fitter)
So have I got a leg to stand on asking for a refund ?
I feel it's worth a try
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Had a similar experience recently - got refund using section 75 of the Consumer Protection Act, did you pay by credit card? the useless fitter of this company wrongly measured my equine by a whole size smaller, if you have a copy of the template he did? or other documentation, you need to get a saddle fitter in to assess the saddle first, pref SMS fitter and get a detailed report from them.
you should try to resolve the problem with the person you purchased it from, keep all e-mails etc. put in writing you are not satisfied with the service you received, quote the CPA 2015. This Act defines goods must be of satisfactory quality, fit for a particular purpose and as described by the seller. The Act also covers the service part of the contract meaning the service i.e. saddle fitting must perform the service with reasonable care and skill, is this person registered with the Society of Master Saddlers? if so get in touch with them to complain. You have 6 years in England to raise case, 5 in Scotland. Go on to WHICH website, THIS IS MONEY, plenty of information and advice.
Hope this helps, the law for consumers now is on our side.
 
tuppy said:
Had a similar experience recently - got refund using section 75 of the Consumer Protection Act, did you pay by credit card? the useless fitter of this company wrongly measured my equine by a whole size smaller, if you have a copy of the template he did? or other documentation, you need to get a saddle fitter in to assess the saddle first, pref SMS fitter and get a detailed report from them.
you should try to resolve the problem with the person you purchased it from, keep all e-mails etc. put in writing you are not satisfied with the service you received, quote the CPA 2015. This Act defines goods must be of satisfactory quality, fit for a particular purpose and as described by the seller. The Act also covers the service part of the contract meaning the service i.e. saddle fitting must perform the service with reasonable care and skill, is this person registered with the Society of Master Saddlers? if so get in touch with them to complain. You have 6 years in England to raise case, 5 in Scotland. Go on to WHICH website, THIS IS MONEY, plenty of information and advice.
Hope this helps, the law for consumers now is on our side.
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Hi sadly I paid him cash
Can I still quote that if I've had the saddle 18 months ?
That's very helpful thank you !
Yes he is registered but when I went on there site it said I could only open a case against the fit of the saddle within 6 months
He didn't take a template !
 
I simply won’t use a saddler that sells one type of saddle .
The one I use sells several types new saddles at different price points and sells second hand which is great because she moves on any I want to part with .
I think used is good option with new young horses as they develop in a new regime an then you buy new when they are more finished and sell on the second hand .
I also have some sympathy with the saddlers mine was being bad mouthed on Facebook as someone’s custom saddle had given a horse a sore back huge brouhaha on Facebook you can imagine , so the saddler looked it up they had not seen the horse since new saddle was fitted when the horse was five ,five years earlier .
I find that level of ignorance hard to understand and it makes saddlers lives very hard .
 
angelish said:
Hi sadly I paid him cash
Can I still quote that if I've had the saddle 18 months ?
That's very helpful thank you !
Yes he is registered but when I went on there site it said I could only open a case against the fit of the saddle within 6 months
He didn't take a template !
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Was it made to measure ?
 
sbloom said:
Not always true, some horses need to be fitted slightly "light" in the middle, others not. It's only a serious fault if you believe it only comes from too flat a tree which is seldom true, much more likely to be too narrow, too long or high in the rear gussets, or too long, even if not beyond the back rib.



As I said above, sometimes only having full contact when girthed is what is needed for that horse. But the gap should be tiny, just a FEEL of some space, not air under the saddle.



The Master Saddle Fitter qualification is supposed to be the pinnacle, another level above the qualified saddle fitter, but I totally agree the SMS qualifications are not the be all and end all.



Very true about the white marks, open sores etc, times have changed for the better no matter how frustrating you all find it,



Okay so checking saddles only, or only selling second hand saddles, how do we get new saddles into the market to supply tomorrow's second hand saddles? Certainly for me going out with the full range of new stock makes fitting the tricky shapes I do much easier. For all of us sellers want as much money as possible for the saddles they are selling, and buyers want to pay as little as possible. To make a living DOES require a decent profit margin, ask your employer or if it's your business consider your own ROI (return on investment) - that margin has to pay for everything needed to run a business and unless you're selling hundreds and hundreds of decent used saddles you'll struggle to make a living, hence the growth of the direct mass sellers of used saddles. Volume is all, but they also have lower overheads unless they're going out fitting.



In part secret because often it's commercially sensitive, you don't want to be copied. I do try and be very clear about the sorts of horses each of our trees would fit, but there is no way I can really give a customer enough information for THEM to evaluate it against a tree from another company. Even when you have them side by side two very similar looking trees can fit very differently, then add in panel design....

Overall I broadly disagree with saying that a saddle could never have fitted a horse, unless it's to long, when ribcages seldom change shape by much (can lengthen as the back lifts and flattens, and can shorten as a horse ages and its back drops). I try and say that it's not the sort of tree or panel I'd have fitted to the horse, it's subjective. The biggest issue for customers, and I do hear you, is that just like all other professions there are many different paradigms for saddle fitting, so it's hard to compare fitters and their approaches. If you like dealing with them, they answer your questions in a way that seems coherent and makes sense, and your horse is happy over a few adjustments, then stick with that fitter, no matter anything else.
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Thank you for explaining that does make a lot of sense
I appreciate that my horse might not be the easiest to fit therefore id be very unlikely to get a good fit with second hand saddles
So I understand the need for me to buy new to ensure a good fit and I totally get that everyone has to make a living etc but the experience I've had over the last few months is absolutely disgraceful
Even after explaining what has happened to another saddler fitter she still tried to sell me two different saddles that clearly to me didn't fit
 
Goldenstar said:
Was it made to measure ?
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No it was off the shelf he brought it and I tried it ,horse wasn't over joyed but she'd had a badly fitted saddle (according to him) before so he said she was just "testing" it , I thought she might just take time to get used to the air
A few days later it was clear she really wasn't happy so I rang him he came out put a wider gullet in it and added some shims down the middle of the saddle as it was bridging
She then went "ok" in it but not great and since then I've just gone round in circles with different gullets and shims and different pads etc
She did have a few weeks off as she bucked me off and knocked me out
 
I've now discovered another problem
It was sold to me as a 17" saddle as he said my saddles were too long being 17.5" hence the reason I needed to buy this new one
I've sent the serial number to sheepham saddles and it is in fact a 17.5" saddle !
But it has a tiny sticker on the stirrup bar saying 17"
I've measured it and it looks to be a 17.5" !
So he's said to me I need new saddles as mine are far too long and he's sold me a saddle for a lot of money that is the same size !
 
angelish said:
Hi sadly I paid him cash
Can I still quote that if I've had the saddle 18 months ?
That's very helpful thank you !
Yes he is registered but when I went on there site it said I could only open a case against the fit of the saddle within 6 months
He didn't take a template !
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suggest you look at WHICH website, or if you are a gold member of BHS there is free legal advice I am only conversant with this via credit card payments, or google consumer protection act, I would always advise using a credit card for payments over £100 as there is good protection, there is chargeback for debit cards but the time limit is 6 weeks I think. After my experience, I got kicked in the neck, I got on to youtube, there are hundreds of video clips demonstrating how to check the fit of a saddle, I admit its not easy, took me many hours, Jochem Scleese, a german saddler, has a lot of these videos demonstrating saddle fit checks, its well worth educating oneself how to check a saddle for fit, once you get the hang of it .. SIMPLES, I could go through it but would take a while. Would make sure in future 2 or 3 templates are taken, over the withers, at the last rib and from the withers along the back to the last rib, get paperwork, template copy, documentation, insist on it, Panther run saddlery has a video on how to do these templates, worth a look, I'm sorry I can't be more help, I hope you get something sorted.
 
tuppy said:
suggest you look at WHICH website, or if you are a gold member of BHS there is free legal advice I am only conversant with this via credit card payments, or google consumer protection act, I would always advise using a credit card for payments over £100 as there is good protection, there is chargeback for debit cards but the time limit is 6 weeks I think. After my experience, I got kicked in the neck, I got on to youtube, there are hundreds of video clips demonstrating how to check the fit of a saddle, I admit its not easy, took me many hours, Jochem Scleese, a german saddler, has a lot of these videos demonstrating saddle fit checks, its well worth educating oneself how to check a saddle for fit, once you get the hang of it .. SIMPLES, I could go through it but would take a while. Would make sure in future 2 or 3 templates are taken, over the withers, at the last rib and from the withers along the back to the last rib, get paperwork, template copy, documentation, insist on it, Panther run saddlery has a video on how to do these templates, worth a look, I'm sorry I can't be more help, I hope you get something sorted.
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Thanks very much
I have learnt a lot over the past few months as I had given up trying to find a decent saddler
Have looked on YouTube etc and found some great American videos on flocking too :)
 
Does anyone know if the fact that it is not the size I thought I was buying gives me anymore chance of a full refund ?
He told me my saddles (17.5") were far too big for her and I needed a 17" hence why he sold me this one and now I've discovered through giving the serial number to sheepham saddles that it is in fact a 17.5" saddle ! I have measured it and it is indeed a 17.5" although it does have a tiny sticker on the stirrup bar saying it's a 17" :(
 
angelish said:
Does anyone know if the fact that it is not the size I thought I was buying gives me anymore chance of a full refund ?
He told me my saddles (17.5") were far too big for her and I needed a 17" hence why he sold me this one and now I've discovered through giving the serial number to sheepham saddles that it is in fact a 17.5" saddle ! I have measured it and it is indeed a 17.5" although it does have a tiny sticker on the stirrup bar saying it's a 17" :(
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There's a recent thread that you should try to find and read. It explains how saddles with the same size seat can vary in panel length, and one fit the horse and one not. Also, some saddles are measured by the size of their tree and some by the size once it has been covered with leather, which makes a difference of about half an inch. and lastly, because the measurement at the pommel is to a button which can be placed very differently, one saddle can measure the same as another but be a very different size and fit.

Basically, you can't say this saddle is the same length on her back as your one he said was too long just because the seat measures the same.

So the answer to your question is probably no, sorry.
 
Just shimming in but I had a horse with a similar conformation (big shoulder, highish wither and back sloping upward) and the Thorowgood high wither fitted her really well, we went through a lot of saddle fitters ( with treeless, reactor panel, serge panels, etc...) but as soon as she was fitted with her Thorowgood there was a marked difference.
 
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