Saddle too wide. Can i temporarily improve the fit?

[Laylarosemackenzie5]

Hi i have a 14.1hh dales pony. His saddle fitted him very well a few months ago but now i suspect it is too wide as it tips up at the back. He has lost weight with increased work. I dont want to hurt him so i am wondering if there is anything i can do to temporarily improve the fit until i can buy him a new one. He is ridden in a thin cotton numnah and halfpad.
Thanks very much x

 

[sbloom]

Can you ask your own fitter? In theory lifting the saddle at the front is usually the way to go but there are too many variables, and too much chance of causing other issues, to say go for it. Plus you've already got a half pad, and something that thick would be the first thing to try. It might even be that he has got flatter and the tree is now too curved and shimming it at the front would be a bad idea.

 

[Bernster]

If you have a regular saddler, could they do a remote check? One I use has offered this as a stop gap. Not ideal but better than nowt I suppose!

 

[Laylarosemackenzie5]

Thank you very much for the replies. He has a 7inch wide saddle. We were going to be buying a dressage saddle anyway but i didnt expect to have to purchase a new one so soon. He has a very flat back but a good wither too. I dont want the saddle to be too tight and restrict his shoulder. My fitter isnt available to come out at the moment so im not sure what to do. I have just been riding him out bareback to keep him going. We only got his saddle in September and it fitted perfectly then. I know he was going to change shape with increased work but i didnt expect so drastically as he wasnt fat when he got his saddle and he is just covered over the ribs atm so not too thin.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

Is it one with an adjustable gullet? If so you could use one of the measurement gauges and just change the gullet yourself for the moment? Not a substitute for a fitter, but might be better than nothing.

 

[sbloom]

If you have a regular saddler, could they do a remote check? One I use has offered this as a stop gap. Not ideal but better than nowt I suppose!

It's what I'm offering for my customers, it can't replace a hands on check but it can help to improve things in many cases hence suggesting it.

Thank you very much for the replies. He has a 7inch wide saddle. We were going to be buying a dressage saddle anyway but i didnt expect to have to purchase a new one so soon. He has a very flat back but a good wither too. I dont want the saddle to be too tight and restrict his shoulder. My fitter isnt available to come out at the moment so im not sure what to do. I have just been riding him out bareback to keep him going. We only got his saddle in September and it fitted perfectly then. I know he was going to change shape with increased work but i didnt expect so drastically as he wasnt fat when he got his saddle and he is just covered over the ribs atm so not too thin.

I'll go into this a bit, because this is a mistake made by many, even if not so clearly.

Be really careful talking about width, there is no way to measure width in terms of inches/cm in a saddle. Trees from some European companies have a stated cm tree size when you buy the saddle new, but it's the distance across between the tree points which are now buried in a saddle, so there's no way to measure them now. Otherwise you're possibly talking about the D to D measurement, which means nothing, or the distance between where the panels are attached in the pommel. The saddles below are MW and XXW yet have the same D to D measurement.



Structural tree width has two elements - Schleese and SaddleFit4Life use width to describe the pommel width, in more usual English ways of fitting we would say that that is just pommel width, or head width, and may use the terms hoop and semi hoop for wider pommels, and may say A framed, and/or upside down U or V.

The English width of a saddles, that SF4L calls angle, is the angle of the tree arch at the front, as in what changes in the various sizes of changable headplate for a given saddle.

The in terms of how it fits you have to add panel shape and amount of flocking. There endeth the lesson

Horses can change shape enough to need a tweak to the saddle in weeks, not just months. I presume you'd like his posture to be good, perhaps improve, and for his muscle to develop? So you see there are two more reasons, not just weight change, for a saddle adjustment being needed. Even if YOU gain weight it will affect the fit. I suspect he's got not only a little leaner but also either popped up a wither (a good thing if it's postural) or he might have lost muscle, which is not so good.

If you check how much clearance there is under the pommel regularly - and do it after riding, dismounted but before loosening the girth - and take photos of the whole horse from the side with the saddle firmly girthed too, you'll start to spot changes, and nip problems in the bud because you're not waiting for the signs to be so obvious you can't miss them. Very few people do this but it really make a TON of difference - if your saddle does drop in front that uneven pressure may cause a vicious circle, with the muscle unable to work well at all because of the increase in weight spread over the front half.

Give your fitter a shout and ask their advice.

 

[Laylarosemackenzie5]

It's what I'm offering for my customers, it can't replace a hands on check but it can help to improve things in many cases hence suggesting it.



I'll go into this a bit, because this is a mistake made by many, even if not so clearly.

Be really careful talking about width, there is no way to measure width in terms of inches/cm in a saddle. Trees from some European companies have a stated cm tree size when you buy the saddle new, but it's the distance across between the tree points which are now buried in a saddle, so there's no way to measure them now. Otherwise you're possibly talking about the D to D measurement, which means nothing, or the distance between where the panels are attached in the pommel. The saddles below are MW and XXW yet have the same D to D measurement.

View attachment 65420

Structural tree width has two elements - Schleese and SaddleFit4Life use width to describe the pommel width, in more usual English ways of fitting we would say that that is just pommel width, or head width, and may use the terms hoop and semi hoop for wider pommels, and may say A framed, and/or upside down U or V.

The English width of a saddles, that SF4L calls angle, is the angle of the tree arch at the front, as in what changes in the various sizes of changable headplate for a given saddle.

The in terms of how it fits you have to add panel shape and amount of flocking. There endeth the lesson

Horses can change shape enough to need a tweak to the saddle in weeks, not just months. I presume you'd like his posture to be good, perhaps improve, and for his muscle to develop? So you see there are two more reasons, not just weight change, for a saddle adjustment being needed. Even if YOU gain weight it will affect the fit. I suspect he's got not only a little leaner but also either popped up a wither (a good thing if it's postural) or he might have lost muscle, which is not so good.

If you check how much clearance there is under the pommel regularly - and do it after riding, dismounted but before loosening the girth - and take photos of the whole horse from the side with the saddle firmly girthed too, you'll start to spot changes, and nip problems in the bud because you're not waiting for the signs to be so obvious you can't miss them. Very few people do this but it really make a TON of difference - if your saddle does drop in front that uneven pressure may cause a vicious circle, with the muscle unable to work well at all because of the increase in weight spread over the front half.

Give your fitter a shout and ask their advice.

Thank you so much! He has very good pommel clearance. He has gained muscle arpund the wither but is much leaner. I put it on without the numnah or girth the other day and moved his leg back and fourth to check the the motion of the shoulder is not disturbed. The pommel and cantle sit evenly but if i pull on the stirrup the cantle tips forward. I dont want a saddle that is too narrow but too wide is very bad. I am snowed in at the moment and no one will come out to fit a saddle right now but as soon as they can u will get one out for him. My saddle width is about a medium i think. Its 7inches between the shoulder pannels.

 

[Laylarosemackenzie5]

Is it one with an adjustable gullet? If so you could use one of the measurement gauges and just change the gullet yourself for the moment? Not a substitute for a fitter, but might be better than nothing.

Sadly it does not. It is just a traditional English leather saddle. Its not a modern one but it was a lovely fit when i got it for him as he was a tricky shape back then but he has changed a lot. It sits level on his back without a girth and allows for the shoulder to move freely so i wouldnt want much narrower.

 

[sbloom]

Thank you so much! He has very good pommel clearance. He has gained muscle arpund the wither but is much leaner. I put it on without the numnah or girth the other day and moved his leg back and fourth to check the the motion of the shoulder is not disturbed. The pommel and cantle sit evenly but if i pull on the stirrup the cantle tips forward. I dont want a saddle that is too narrow but too wide is very bad. I am snowed in at the moment and no one will come out to fit a saddle right now but as soon as they can u will get one out for him. My saddle width is about a medium i think. Its 7inches between the shoulder pannels.

As I say, ignore the 7", it has nothing to do with width.

So, if you have plenty of clearance (the normal would be somewhere around 1.5-2.5" with the rider on board, but that will also depend on what pads you use, and it would be more when you're not on board of course) and the saddle seems level, yet it tips forwards with weight pressed on or towards the pommel, then the tree, or the panel/flocking, is too curvy.

The only way to assess tree width on the horse is to look at how the points lie against the ribcage, and you can also tell a certain amount, and what the horse is experiencing, by running your hands under the panel. On the nearside press on the pommel with your right hand, take your left hand, palm towards you, and run at least 1" of your fingertips under the front edge of the panel, seeing if it's hard to get your fingers to get under the panel at the top edge (probably too wide) or if it's easy at the top, and then you hit a "bite point" a few inches down (probably too narrow). Your saddle fitter should be able to assess this from carefully taken photos.

Too narrow is always a no-no, but you have no idea if you're in that ball park or not without this objective info. Shoulder freedom comes from myriad factors in saddle fit, you need to work out what's going on with the fit, then you can work out where to go, and it may be that you do need a narrower fit (however, I have not seen a horse that should be in narrower than a medium, this is where a horse is usually hollow and needs padding, not a narrower tree angle) but other aspects of the fit need to be changed too.

 

[Laylarosemackenzie5]

As I say, ignore the 7", it has nothing to do with width.

So, if you have plenty of clearance (the normal would be somewhere around 1.5-2.5" with the rider on board, but that will also depend on what pads you use, and it would be more when you're not on board of course) and the saddle seems level, yet it tips forwards with weight pressed on or towards the pommel, then the tree, or the panel/flocking, is too curvy.

The only way to assess tree width on the horse is to look at how the points lie against the ribcage, and you can also tell a certain amount, and what the horse is experiencing, by running your hands under the panel. On the nearside press on the pommel with your right hand, take your left hand, palm towards you, and run at least 1" of your fingertips under the front edge of the panel, seeing if it's hard to get your fingers to get under the panel at the top edge (probably too wide) or if it's easy at the top, and then you hit a "bite point" a few inches down (probably too narrow). Your saddle fitter should be able to assess this from carefully taken photos.

Too narrow is always a no-no, but you have no idea if you're in that ball park or not without this objective info. Shoulder freedom comes from myriad factors in saddle fit, you need to work out what's going on with the fit, then you can work out where to go, and it may be that you do need a narrower fit (however, I have not seen a horse that should be in narrower than a medium, this is where a horse is usually hollow and needs padding, not a narrower tree angle) but other aspects of the fit need to be changed too.

Thank you very much! This has really helped. I will try that. I didnt know how intricate saddle were! The gullet is very wide so i assume it is a medium. If the shoulder pannel width has nothing to do with tree width then how can one tell when buying a second hand one from someone who isnt a fitter? I really am very grateful for this and will definately be getting a fitter out rather than just buying a different saddle like i was originally goimg to do as it would probably be making the problem worse.

 

[sbloom]

Thank you very much! This has really helped. I will try that. I didnt know how intricate saddle were! The gullet is very wide so i assume it is a medium. If the shoulder pannel width has nothing to do with tree width then how can one tell when buying a second hand one from someone who isnt a fitter? I really am very grateful for this and will definately be getting a fitter out rather than just buying a different saddle like i was originally goimg to do as it would probably be making the problem worse.

Gullet width is often unrelated to the tree angle at the front, it MIGHT mean the pommel is slightly wider, but it may not, it should somewhat match the rail shape of the tree (google for a tree photo) but doesn't always. Medium is NOT wide in the scheme of things, it's really not, my average fit, as a wide specialist, is between XW and XXW and MW is actually the narrowest I'd want to fit on even muscle wasted horses, but that's just my take, and as you've gathered even the exact angle of the tree isn't stand alone, a different pommel width, or tree point length, might lead to selecting a slightly different tree angle.

The panel is the flocked or foam bit, shoulder panel I'm guessing you mean what the front of the saddle, the panel against the shoulder, looks like? You can actually see the tree point pockets in many saddles, where the points sit, as U shaped stitch lines, with the solid points inside. You can see these from the front of the saddle, behind the trim or "welting" that runs down the front of the pommel/flaps. This must be parallel to the horse's sides, for those experienced in this game you can see a good photo of the front of a saddle and have a good idea as to how it will fit.

How can you tell? As you're gathering, it's an art, it takes knowledge and experience, you need to be able to judge shapes, ideally know about models and trees - even I stick to only advising on the one brand that I fit, I find it way easier to get a good result with my saddles than any others as I fit really tricky horses on the whole.

Really glad you're going to get help

 

[Laylarosemackenzie5]

Gullet width is often unrelated to the tree angle at the front, it MIGHT mean the pommel is slightly wider, but it may not, it should somewhat match the rail shape of the tree (google for a tree photo) but doesn't always. Medium is NOT wide in the scheme of things, it's really not, my average fit, as a wide specialist, is between XW and XXW and MW is actually the narrowest I'd want to fit on even muscle wasted horses, but that's just my take, and as you've gathered even the exact angle of the tree isn't stand alone, a different pommel width, or tree point length, might lead to selecting a slightly different tree angle.

The panel is the flocked or foam bit, shoulder panel I'm guessing you mean what the front of the saddle, the panel against the shoulder, looks like? You can actually see the tree point pockets in many saddles, where the points sit, as U shaped stitch lines, with the solid points inside. You can see these from the front of the saddle, behind the trim or "welting" that runs down the front of the pommel/flaps. This must be parallel to the horse's sides, for those experienced in this game you can see a good photo of the front of a saddle and have a good idea as to how it will fit.

How can you tell? As you're gathering, it's an art, it takes knowledge and experience, you need to be able to judge shapes, ideally know about models and trees - even I stick to only advising on the one brand that I fit, I find it way easier to get a good result with my saddles than any others as I fit really tricky horses on the whole.

Really glad you're going to get help

Thank you very much. Yhe cantle doesnt sit on his back when girthed up without a rider i have noticed and am quite worried. Everyone is snowed in and our house is completely cut off atm so no chance of a fitter unless the snow clears drastically or they have their own tractor.

 

[sbloom]

Thank you very much. Yhe cantle doesnt sit on his back when girthed up without a rider i have noticed and am quite worried. Everyone is snowed in and our house is completely cut off atm so no chance of a fitter unless the snow clears drastically or they have their own tractor.

You should not be riding in the saddle, sorry. I would keep chasing your fitter for some remote advice. Perhaps take the photos we suggest here https://www.ahsaddles.com/photos-for-a-saddle-adjustment and offer to pay a fee for help?

 

[Laylarosemackenzie5]

You should not be riding in the saddle, sorry. I would keep chasing your fitter for some remote advice. Perhaps take the photos we suggest here https://www.ahsaddles.com/photos-for-a-saddle-adjustment and offer to pay a fee for help?

I haven't been since i noticed and have only been riding bareback or walking him in hand. I have arranged for a fitter to come out at the end of the month so im really relieved.

 

[ycbm]

You have undoubtedly had the absolute best advice you can get already on this thread. But having come from the bad old days decades ago, when riders often had a saddle which fitted them and moved it from horse to horse, I can't help wondering if it's actually necessary to stop riding altogether until your fitter comes.

You haven't given up using the saddle because he has had any problems, as far as I can see, but because you can see it is now too wide.

Many of the oldies among us would probably put a front riser on this saddle, check his demeanor when he is ridden in it, check his back daily for any hint of an issue and ride until the fitter comes out.

I freely admit I'm completely out of date with modern ideas of quite how meticulous saddle fitting should be.
.

 

[sbloom]

You have undoubtedly had the absolute best advice you can get already on this thread. But having come from the bad old days decades ago, when riders often had a saddle which fitted them and moved it from horse to horse, I can't help wondering if it's actually necessary to stop riding altogether until your fitter comes.

You haven't given up using the saddle because he has had any problems, as far as I can see, but because you can see it is now too wide.

Many of the oldies among us would probably put a front riser on this saddle, check his demeanor when he is ridden in it, check his back daily for any hint of an issue and ride until the fitter comes out.

I freely admit I'm completely out of date with modern ideas of quite how meticulous saddle fitting should be.
.

Not bad advice, but you know what you're looking for. The advice is geared to the poster. I could start getting into the intricacies of shimming, but in general a saddle that lifts off the back on girthing is best not used.

 

[Laylarosemackenzie5]

You have undoubtedly had the absolute best advice you can get already on this thread. But having come from the bad old days decades ago, when riders often had a saddle which fitted them and moved it from horse to horse, I can't help wondering if it's actually necessary to stop riding altogether until your fitter comes.

You haven't given up using the saddle because he has had any problems, as far as I can see, but because you can see it is now too wide.

Many of the oldies among us would probably put a front riser on this saddle, check his demeanor when he is ridden in it, check his back daily for any hint of an issue and ride until the fitter comes out.

I freely admit I'm completely out of date with modern ideas of quite how meticulous saddle fitting should be.
.

I have looked through my photos and videos from a few months back and it never used to rise off the back and this has happened quite quickly. He is heavily rugged and turned out all year round while we fix up his stable and he is also clipped so he is loosing weight a bit faster. I found a fitter and am arranging for them to come out as soon as possible. He has had no sensitivity in his back or lumps or white hairs but he has had previous issues with saddles before i bought him so i am very cautious when it comes to tack. My halfpads are not very thick so i am considering a foam riser halfpad but not sure. Thank you so much for the suggestion x