Saddler/fitter who doesn't seem to know the difference

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JillA

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Sorry Cremedemonthe if this is treading on your toes, but I posted in a FB group about the saddle fitting lecture I am hosting in a couple of weeks. Among other things I pointed out that Inge has spent 3 months training to fit, and is very knowledgeable on equine anatomy. HAd a real rant of a response from a local guy who seems to think that 40 years experience as a SADDLER in Walsall trumps 3 months learning specifically fitting, and that I am being most unfair to the profession? I checked - MAster Saddlers fitting training is 2 days (taster course) and the City and Guilds is saddler, not fitting per se.
I have to say I would now avoid this guy like the plague, not only does he sound as arrogant as an arrogant thing, but seems to think making saddles equips you to fit them? What do you people reckon?
 
All I know is that I've had several SMS qualified fitters out to my horse and none of them have managed to get a saddle to fit my easy to fit horse. I'm now using someone from Walsall who has been making saddles for about the same amount of time as you mention above (maybe it's the same guy) and my horse is finally happy in a saddle. I have two saddles which fit perfectly, don't move, don't make the horse grumpy, don't need expensive specialist girths or sticky pads, don't live at the back / front or bridge. This guy comes highly recommended by friends and I wouldn't use anyone else now. He is never in a rush when he fits my saddles - watches me ride, takes it off, adjusts it, watches again, moves knee blocks around, everything. Something I've never experienced with a SMS fitter, no matter how many courses they've been on. I've always found it a struggle to get any of them to even watch me ride.
With SMS fitters I have, in a couple of instances, told them point blank I KNOW a saddle doesn't fit, the horse has a sore back, physio tells me saddle doesn't fit and they will swear blind it does. Called this guy out for the first time, didn't say I was having issues, just said it was a saddle check. He picked up on everything I'd been telling the SMS fitters, sorted saddle and horse has never been happier.
 
JillA said:
Sorry Cremedemonthe if this is treading on your toes, but I posted in a FB group about the saddle fitting lecture I am hosting in a couple of weeks. Among other things I pointed out that Inge has spent 3 months training to fit, and is very knowledgeable on equine anatomy. HAd a real rant of a response from a local guy who seems to think that 40 years experience as a SADDLER in Walsall trumps 3 months learning specifically fitting, and that I am being most unfair to the profession? I checked - MAster Saddlers fitting training is 2 days (taster course) and the City and Guilds is saddler, not fitting per se.
I have to say I would now avoid this guy like the plague, not only does he sound as arrogant as an arrogant thing, but seems to think making saddles equips you to fit them? What do you people reckon?
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No you are not treading on my toes but in the defence of this guy who ever he is, he is OLD school, same as me and I must correct you in the fact that a traditionally trained saddler as he probably is, would know how to fit, flock, make, repair, adjust, design all saddles and bridles including fitting lorinery. It's how saddlers used to be trained, same as old school mechanics could make and fix most things on a car, now you often have a team of guys who are fitters but quite often don't have a clue how the things actually works that they are fitting.
You can be qualified up to the eyeballs and still not have the experience to fit things properly hence Chestnut Cob's post above. I have had to remedy many saddles fitted and or worked on by so called SMS fitters who quite honestly should not have been any where near a saddle.
Saddle fitting came about as a separate qualification about 15 years or so ago, may be more I don't know, so to compare him to a modern saddle fitter is a bit unfair as he would have been trained very differently to the new ones but he would still know a damn sight more than most SMS fitters today.
3 months training in saddle fitting is a mere drop in the ocean, I have been fitting for nearly 27 years (now don't do it to concentrate on manufacturing instead) and I still have plenty to learn, Oz
 
LJR said:
I personally would use someone who had 40 years of experience over someone who has a qualification, sorry.
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Agreed, but I will say I have a SMS saddle fitter come regularly to my horses and she's really good, watched me ride adjusts what needs adjusting and doesn't break the bank ( My horses do that for me :D )
 
Just to offer my two-penn'orth - it depends very much on the individual(s) concerned. Which saddler versus which fitter?

Quite the worst fitting saddle I ever had was a bespoke saddle made to measure(!) by a Master saddler with many, many years experience. My mare used to grind her teeth and walk away at the sight of the saddle approaching, and over the few weeks I used it, I had a couple of nasty falls. With hindsight, I attribute them entirely to the saddle being uncomfortable for her. This, from a saddle that was started by selecting a tree that fit her back 'perfectly' according to this man.

If nothing else it taught me that the only opinion that matters, is that of your horse.

So to answer the OP's question, no, I do not believe that being qualified to make saddles necessarily equips that person to fit them. They are 2 complementary, but different skills.
 
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dorito said:
Just to offer my two-penn'orth - it depends very much on the individual(s) concerned. Which saddler versus which fitter?

Quite the worst fitting saddle I ever had was a bespoke saddle made to measure(!) by a Master saddler with many, many years experience. My mare used to grind her teeth and walk away at the sight of the saddle approaching, and over the few weeks I used it, I had a couple of nasty falls. With hindsight, I attribute them entirely to the saddle being uncomfortable for her. This, from a saddle that was started by selecting a tree that fit her back 'perfectly' according to this man.

If nothing else it taught me that the only opinion that matters, is that of your horse.
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Exactly this! Like in most walks of life, you get professionals who are truly awful but equally scary people who do a course, and consider themselves "experts".

At the end of the day, you have to go with somebody that you trust and as dorito says... listen to your horse!!

However, I can understand why a professional of 40 years experience may have some degree of arrogance and be skeptical of somebody claiming to be able to do as they have done after a three month course.
 
A saddle fitter can mean different things to different people. Do you just want a person to fit a saddle who has different ones to try? Or do you want a person to fit a saddle re flock the saddle? Be able to tell if the saddle's tree is twisted or broken? Do you want someone who knows how they are made and knows the best makes? It's quite a wide area we are talking and there is a lot of experience needed to fit professionally.
 
Thanks for your input. The point about this lecture is to equip owners to know what they should be looking for - years ago we used to trust farriers implicitly, these days we question and evaluate much more and need to know what is good and what isn't. And I still dislike farriers who imply that I am "just" the owner and don't know anything, ditto any equine professional. I was just shocked at his aggression given that no-one was out to compete directly with him - she does have plenty of experience, but founded on 3 months fitting training, not "just" a qualification.
 
In my opinion you have every right to run what ever course you want, taken by whoever you see fit to host it. However, I can see why someone with 40 years experience might get upset over it, although of course he does not have to attend and could also run his own course. It does depend on how it was all worded and if he felt that his profession was being slated.I would not call his attitude arrogant, a pardonable pride in ones ability, should not be mistaken for such. Again I would take training and experience over just training, in most cases. It takes a long time to develop a good eye and I would expect someone who has just finished training to be working with a more experienced person, to develop that eye. Maybe you could invite this guy to give you some input in to your course.

just read your last post, if the girl is experienced then I would look at how you worded your post. It could be it came across wrong without you meaning it too. I have come across professionals who do not listen to owners, i just never employ them again.
 
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Cortez said:
I'd take 40 years, and proud of it, over 3 months any day.
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Yes, so would I, if they were comparable, but that's 40 years as a general saddler, not a specialist fitter, as opposed to specialist fitter training, including detailed anatomy, with subsequent experience. Bit like comparing a farrier with 40 years general shoeing with a trained remedial farrier?
 
JillA said:
Yes, so would I, if they were comparable, but that's 40 years as a general saddler, not a specialist fitter, as opposed to specialist fitter training, including detailed anatomy, with subsequent experience. Bit like comparing a farrier with 40 years general shoeing with a trained remedial farrier?
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Sorry I disagree - a good "general saddler" will know about a horses anatomy, fitting etc - also there is no such thing as "general shoeing". Every time a horse is shod a farrier is balancing the foot, the vast majority of farriers are remedial farriers - its just that they don't specialise in it nor charge you an arm and a leg for doing it :)
 
JillA said:
Yes, so would I, if they were comparable, but that's 40 years as a general saddler, not a specialist fitter, as opposed to specialist fitter training, including detailed anatomy, with subsequent experience. Bit like comparing a farrier with 40 years general shoeing with a trained remedial farrier?
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A "general" farrier goes through 4-5 years of training including remedial shoeing and considering that perfect conformation is rarely found spends a fair amount of their time doing remedial shoeing.

Similarly a master saddler with 40+ years of experience will not just be saddle making they too will have gone through an apprenticeship period as in days gone by becoming a master saddler involved both the making and the fitting of saddles rather than the mix-match that you can get now.
 
Cortez said:
I'd take 40 years, and proud of it, over 3 months any day.
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I have to agree and should add that when my horse was having back problems, so needed to have her saddle checked and reflocked, my vet recommended asking a saddler rather than a fitter. And as he is a back specialist, I will always trust his judgement about backs.
 
I use a saddler with 40+ years experience and he has made me 2 saddles now for my horses and they have never been happier. The saddles are also made to measure for both of us and less than half the price of a new off the shelf Albion!

3 months training, fine, still no contest for experience I'm afraid.
 
Tbh , three months and experience and forty years ,neither would be good enough for me with saddlers the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
I don't care how they qualified as long as they can fit and assess really well and sell more than one brand of saddle ( I won't entertain people who sell for only one company only ) and I prefer that they are very experienced with second hand and they are very committed to ongoing assessment of the saddles .
 
Well I'm neither SMS qualified, nor a saddler, AND I only sell one brand (well, two technically) and still have a ton of happy clients mostly with natives and wide horses that other regular (usually qualified) fitters have failed to fit, so you pays your money and takes your choice!
 
It is like any qualification of any type. Until you have experience under your belt and develop an intuition you don't have any skill to offer. I can understand why that man was incensed at a 3 month course graduate being promoted as an expert.
 
Max123 said:
I can understand why that man was incensed at a 3 month course graduate being promoted as an expert.
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As can I. 3 months is barely time to learn the theory, let alone develop an eye for it. It takes experience to be able to identify a slight stiffness or uneven gait during a walk-up, for example, let alone determine the cause in the fit of the saddle. 3 months is about how long it takes someone to learn the sales-patter.
 
Not had great experiences with SMS fitters I have to say. After 3 new saddles I'm back riding in my 15 year old one I got from one of the qualified by experience saddlers in Walsall. My current horse is nothing like the one I got the saddle for but goes far better in it than the others I have had made for him!
 
What I would be looking for is the qualification for master saddle fitters and the years experience, better still if they had the saddle makers qualification. God we have some sales patter going on in the north east recently, and hell does it over shadow what's in the horses best interest in a major way!
 
JillA said:
Sorry Cremedemonthe if this is treading on your toes, but I posted in a FB group about the saddle fitting lecture I am hosting in a couple of weeks. Among other things I pointed out that Inge has spent 3 months training to fit, and is very knowledgeable on equine anatomy. HAd a real rant of a response from a local guy who seems to think that 40 years experience as a SADDLER in Walsall trumps 3 months learning specifically fitting, and that I am being most unfair to the profession? I checked - MAster Saddlers fitting training is 2 days (taster course) and the City and Guilds is saddler, not fitting per se.
I have to say I would now avoid this guy like the plague, not only does he sound as arrogant as an arrogant thing, but seems to think making saddles equips you to fit them? What do you people reckon?
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Can you pm me his name? I think I know who you are talking about.....
 
I'm wondering if it's a person I've previously come across, initials BS...

I used to have one of his jumping saddles, but it needed adjusting for a new horse. Saddle fitter came & did templates, sent it off, and we waited...and waited... After 4 to 6 weeks, she rang to ask for a progress update, & received a torrent of abuse. She said that no-one had ever spoken to her like that before & she was really shocked. Saddle fitter is lovely & would def never have incited that sort of behaviour. The gist was that he would deal with my saddle when he was good & ready, & if we didn't like it, we could **** ***.

I eventually got my saddle back, adjusted to fit, having spent a couple of months jumping my new 4 yo in a dressage saddle, but then I sold it pretty quickly as the whole incident left me feeling a bit weird every time I used the saddle. It was a fab saddle, but I just went right off it.

Apols for the digression if it's someone totally different!

T x
 
I'm a SMS apprentice (bridle making) and I'm pretty sure you have to been fitting for at least three years to take the Society's saddle fitting qualification.

Personally I prefer experience, a complete understand of horse and saddle anatomy and lifelong learning approach to saddle fitting over qualifications. I use Kay Humphreys and it's absolutely fascinating to watch her work.
 
I maybe wrong but would say it's reasonably easy to work out who is 'BS' in Walsall and has been making and fitting saddles for 40 yrs. If I'm right then that's who I use. I understand that person has a reputation for being somewhat grumpy but he made my saddle last year and it's fantastic. or even of his views experienced saddlers fits it and the horse has never been so happy or worked so well. They also check / adjust my Ideal jumping saddle and I'm happy with that.

previously I'd been using SMS qualified (experienced!) fitters and was on the verge of looking into taking a saddle fitting course myself as was so desperate. In the case of both SMS fitters I recently used it was blatantly obvious my saddle did not fit. I could see it, horse wasn't going well and was developing muscle wastage because of it. physio was also saying it. I tried 3 sms fitters who all insisted saddle fit fine when clearly it didn't.
I ended up contacting the BS I use, got a m2m DR saddle and had then refit my jumping saddle. within a couple of rides horse was totally different and we haven't looked back since. They come out every 6 months to check and make minor adjustments as needed.

I will never use a SMS fitter again.
 
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