Saddler says my Bates doesn't fit...

doratheexplorer

doratheexplorer

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Right, so I have tried a bates caprilli jump on B and 3 other people (none saddle fitters, but knowledgeable horsey people) all of whom have seen me ride in it and 2 have ridden in it thamselves.

It is a medium/wide fit, and on all the horses on the yard is used with a Prolite balance pad to stop the back of the saddle bouncing around.

Never has any horse on the yard had a bad back from it, and I decided on Bates because it is changeable, and nice and B and I both liked it...

Now a saddler came to the yard today, and I asked her to have a look at the Bates on B, she immediately asked why I chose a Bates and told me how many horses didnt like them, then proceeded to big up Kent and Masters jump saddles, and how she has one in at the moment, Medium and totally perfect for me, all the time explaining how horrid Bates were etc...

Now, I could see the Bates wobbling a tad at the back, but with a numnah and some fluff/prolite, I can see this stopping... should I listen to the demanding saddler, or was she just trying to make me spend more money on her saddles??

Sorry for all my midless waffling, I really want to do right, but I have had a lot of conflicting advice today!!

I can offer Galaxy Caramel and some white wine if your interested...
 
i wouldnt take her advice. if your worried get a second oppinion. i expect there is someone about who fits these kinds of saddles. i know of a few saddlers that have taken people for a ride and making them think they need to buy this special saddle and theres is very bad. there are sooooo many people who dont have saddles fitted to their horses and they all cope fine. i have mine fitted purley because hes an odd shape and id rather know it fitted than thinking it did.
 
If you need pads and gadgets to make the saddle stop wobbling,then it doesnt fit. Sounds as if the saddler is pushing her wares though,that would make me mad. You need to find out if you can get the sadddle you have sorted so it fits properly. You dont need to buy a new one! go down that route first.
I have a saddle and had it make to fit two different horses,simular sizes mind,by a saddler who came out and sorted it for me....never told me to buy a new one.
 
It is a medium/wide fit, and on all the horses on the yard is used with a Prolite balance pad to stop the back of the saddle bouncing around.
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Surely you can see that tells you the saddle doesn't fit? Just because your friends are 'experienced' don't mean they know what they're talking about (saddle fitting or otherwise!) In fact many very 'experienced' horse people are terrible at fitting tack, esp older riders, as they don't think it really matters.

Saddler is quite right - they are horrible saddles that fit very few horses because, despite the gullet change, the rest of the tree doesn't suit most backs. As for 'padding them up so they're ok............' Ugh.

However it doesn't mean the saddlers any good either.......

Kent and Masters are lovely saddles and suit many horses as they have three tree types, as well as a changeable gullets (and better designed panels). They are the leather version of the Thorowgood saddles. If you're not sure, have the saddlers FIT a kent and masters/thorowgood but tell her you're going to buy second hand off ebay or similar. And do so - they're much cheaper.
 
i love my bates! love it love it! and it drops well on a lot of horses! is it air filled, cair, panelled or flocked? prolites work nicely under a saddle, tho not on something too narrow for the horse in Q. do you have a comfortable workable clearance at the scapula? or is it nippy? does the seat sit level (ie not up at the front or back) doyou have any gaps between the horse and saddle when saddle on top and pressed down not girthed? ie behind the stirrup bars and beneath the seat? does the saddle looked balanced when girthed ie level? from front to back? And the very very important q at the end of the day .......... does your horse go nicely in this saddle? secondary important question does this saddle fit you as a rider from point of hip to knee joint? i sell all sorts of tack and saddles and really hate when other saddlers slate whats on and try to hard sell a new one! but sorry i really do believe that interchangable gullets are NOT the answer! if you had size 5 feet you wouldnt put a pair of thick socks on and wear a 7!
 
iv got 2 bates saddles they are great !!! i had a the same responce 2 urs from the derbty house saddler, so i got a 2nd opinion from bates themselves, they took the saddle off me did bcsomething to the air bags and now it is perfect. cost me about 65.00, derby house wanted me 2 spend 1300
 
I have a bates, and it sits perfectly on my horses back.
There should never ever be any need for padded nummnahs and such in my opinion, or these silly things you can put blocks in. If the saddle doesnt fit it doesnt fit!
Its hard work, took me a good 9 months to find a suitable one that fitted both him and me, and the bates was the only one :)
Different makes of saddle are made for different horses so try on a variety....and saddlers often have 'allegences' to certain makes, don't let them sell you something that doesnt fit!! (We had big issues with the stubben saddle fitter, was much to much of a sales person, didnt seem to care about the fit!)

At the end of the day, the last thing you need is a horse with a bad back. I've met several and they are not happy bunnies!
 
I took a couple of Bates saddles along with one of my horses to a Master Saddler / Saddle Fitter who is often recommended on here. One was an old fixed gullet jobby and the other a modern Caprilli GP. Brief was to find a saddle that fitted the horse for everyday and also an out and out jumping saddle. As part of the process he checked the saddles I'd brought. The old fixed gullet was no good as far as fit was concerned. The Caprilli however he was happy with the fit of. He doesn't like them as saddles but for an everyday saddle he was happy that it fitted her well. I should say at this point that he had the opportunity to sell me two saddles but suggested I kept the Bates.
 
As others say if it wobbles at the back it doesn't fit.

Get a different and qualified saddle fitter out, I've got the wintec close contact with cair and my saddler has put some additional flocking in to get it to fit.

It does sound like she's trying to get you to buy one of hers as well.
 
I can understand that many riders with Bates saddles speak up in their defence & say they fit brilliantly & with the changeable gullet can fit any horse but in truth Bates saddles do not fit all horses. Just changing the gullet does change the fit but there are far more adjustments that may need to be made apart from just a gullet change.

The OP stated "It is a medium/wide fit, and on all the horses on the yard is used with a Prolite balance pad to stop the back of the saddle bouncing around." as has ben said if the back of the saddle 'bounces' then it clearly doesn't fit & wedging a pad under it to stop this does not make the saddle fit. The saddle should fit without any pad under it at all. A pad/cloth really should be very thin & really is only there to help keep the saddle clean not to assist fit.

I'm not a Bates saddle hater, I have had several Bates over the years but am not a slave to the 'One saddle fits all' doctrine.;)
 
Toby_Zaphod said:
I can understand that many riders with Bates saddles speak up in their defence & say they fit brilliantly & with the changeable gullet can fit any horse but in truth Bates saddles do not fit all horses.
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there is not a saddle in the world that will fit "all horses".

as others have said.. if it moves it doesn't fit
if you need to use a pad to make it sit right, it doesn't fit

I'm not saying I'd buy from the saddler either, but I would get a second opinion.
 
Does your Bates have Cair?

Coz if it does, it will move about abit becuase of the air.

Is that saddler trained and qaulified to fit Cair saddles, coz they are VERY different to normal flocked saddles.

Ive always had Bates Cair saddles and never had a horse dislike them. It can take some horses abit of time to get used to them, as they can feel the air moving, but they soon get used to it.

Id def get another opinion by someone who is training and qaulified to fit Cair saddles.
 
I had a Bates initially for my horse - and I just loved it.

Didn't really fit the horse very well though as he is mainly TB and needed something with longer panels.

Looking at your avatar your horse looks as if it could be TB or similar....
 
Am agreeing with those on here commenting that with extra pads etc added it doesn't make it "fit" .

The actual tree itself will be wrong shape for some horse's backs, despite the gullet being changeable. That adjusts the width, not the shape.

I'm so not qualified to be a saddler, but I've tried all sorts of saddles on my horses and it's plain to see when something isn't right (as when it's moving). I always get a saddle fitter to check any saddle before I ride in it...and get it checked twice a year thereafter. Adding padding will certainly minimise the movement, but what it then does is makes the saddle unstable; and it may also cause sores/wastage on the horse's back. This isn't unique to Bates, it's true of any ill fitted saddle. My friend has a lovely Bates xc saddle that is fantastic fit on her horse (an ex-racer)...but no way it would fit my barrel shaped horse (part bred arab) or my welsh cob (another barrel) - even if they were all "medium" or "wide" sized horses.

The saddler was probably right, but also a bit of a pushy "car salesman". Suggest like all before me, get another experienced master saddler round to have a look.
 
Agree with others. If its moving at the back then it doesn't fit. However, depending on how much it is moving and new the saddle is you may just need the cair/flock adjusted. Not necessarily a new saddle! Try another saddle fitter for a second opinion - this one sounds like they have an agenda!
 
I've owned a Bates dressage saddle, for a short period, I'm not a fan to be honest- with the Bates (and it was true with mine) it can be very hard to get them properly balanced and they can lift a little at the back, when they cease to fit as they should.

To be honest though, I've ridden in a Kent & Masters as well and I personally thought that too was horrid!

I would get a totally different Saddler/saddle fitter out whose opinion you trust, and who you can work with and see what they say about the saddle- if it's not 100% right maybe they can try flocking it as it sounds like you do like the saddle or let you ride in some other saddles so you can compare.

Oh and P.S I won't mention any names but think I can guess the name of the saddle fitter- as if it's the one I'm thinking of I used her once only and didn't buy from her as she said she couldn't sell me anything and proceeded to charge me for telling me that, and for a bit of call out!
 
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If you need pads and 'fluff' then the saddle doesnt fit and all you are doing is avoiding the problem, not solving it. The saddle should be in contact with the horse the whole length of the panel and bates/wintecs are notorious for not doing this because of their curved trees. The only solution is a different saddle.
kent and masters saddles are much better, they are well designed so it is worth trying one. Personally i would never buy from ebay or unseen though. there is a variation between individual saddles of the same make as they are made by different people. Even a new saddle could have been ridden in on a wonky horse just a handful of times and the flocking will be odd- asking for trouble. The tree could be twisted or cracked if the saddle hasnt been looked after properly too.
If youre not confident in the fitter youve had out get a second opinion. however it does sound that shes definately right that your saddle doesnt fit. maybe shes likes the kent and masters because they are good saddles! and they are adjustable to some etent- width, flocking and girthing arrangement. Cair isnt adjustable at all and you cant adjust the girthing either.
 
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K27 said:
Oh and P.S I won't mention any names but think I can guess the name of the saddle fitter- as if it's the one I'm thinking of I used her once only and didn't buy from her as she said she couldn't sell me anything and proceeded to charge me for telling me that, and for a bit of call out!
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Well, you asked for her to drive to your horse and for her professional opinion. Should that be free? Or should she have sold you a saddle that didnt fit?! Personally i think thats more than fair- she charged you for her time, just as a vet, plumber, electrician, mechanic, etc would have done but rather than sell you something that didnt fit (which many fitters do) she said she couldnt help you. I think thats a good thing!
 
teddyt said:
Well, you asked for her to drive to your horse and for her professional opinion. Should that be free? Or should she have sold you a saddle that didnt fit?! Personally i think thats more than fair- she charged you for her time, just as a vet, plumber, electrician, mechanic, etc would have done but rather than sell you something that didnt fit (which many fitters do) she said she couldnt help you. I think thats a good thing!
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The thing is she said she couldn't sell me anything (oh, apart from a £2k plus saddle that would have to be made to measure)- when I actually consulted another saddle fitter I was glad I didn't pay £2000 plus for a saddle from her as she had quoted me a fitting too narrow -which I wasn't happy with would have caused further problems! she really didn't give me much of a professional opinion for £70.00 for half an hours work, if that! and theres no way I'd let a fitter fit and leave me with a saddle on the day of the fitting that in my opinion didn't fit, -so yes that was the good thing to come out of it ! luckily I wasn't overly bothered by it as it's all sorted and in the past now!
 
Not every make of saddle is the same exact width i.e. a narrow in one make can be medium in another. You have your reasons for beng unhappy, im not disputing that. There are many **** fitters out there that deserve a hard time and i have no idea who your fitter was! But sometimes a fitter just cant sell a saddle in someones budget because the horse needs a particular fit and that may cost more than the owner has.

People begrudge paying to have their saddle checked but its just as important as vets and farriers. People expect fitters to have a choice of hundreds of saddles yet they call them out for their advice and then buy from ebay! Fitters get a hard time sometimes and i think you should expect to pay for their opinion whether you buy a saddle or not. best to check out heir charges beforehand to see if youre happy first!
 
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