Saddlers - do they ever agree?

[sbloom]

Please please please could we use saddle fitter and not saddler...I've even had the accusations thrown at me they we fitters are trying to pass ourselves off as saddlers and I don't know a single fitter that isn't as irritated over this as I am.

Shorten to fitter within a conversation like this as we're clearly not talking about bit/bridle fitters .

This is my take on it, mad ow I've added a treeless brand to my "stable" it applies even more so:

Why can't saddle fitters agree?!

Isn't there great comfort in a set of rules? For my job, a universal truths of saddle fitting, so you can assess saddles and fitters against each other? If only. Did you know there are many, many ways to fit a saddle? The series of debates hosted by the Professional Saddle Fitter's Association...

stephaniebloomsaddlefitter.co.uk

 

[Ambers Echo]

I think Saddle fitters SHOULD agree far far more than they do. Even if different saddles styles are fitted completely differently, an independent saddle fitter should be able to say THIS saddle style does or does not fit THIS horse in the ways intended by the design.

In any other skill inter-rater reliability is viewed as a crucial part of any credible opinion. Ie adequately trained people in any given area should broadly agree.

If 5 physios, or doctors, or mechanics, or farriers or engineers gave 5 completely different views on what was up with you/your car/your horses feet or the stability of a bridge then none of them would have credibility.

 

[ihatework]

I might have to run and hide for saying this but these days, I generally don’t use saddle fitters. I buy good quality second hand on a tree that should suit the horse and then the best saddle fitter out there is the horse.
I want it to sit evenly and not move or lift. Does the horse move freely? Is the horse happy to accept the saddle and girth? Is the horse showing any saddle related soreness?
I fit a fraction wide and use a pad.

If you have a decent saddle and it’s not working you generally don’t loose a great deal buy exchanging on the second hand market.

That’s not to say I’d never use a saddle fitter, I would if I were having issues. But it’s not my first port of call.

 

[sbloom]

I think Saddle fitters SHOULD agree far far more than they do. Even if different saddles styles are fitted completely differently, an independent saddle fitter should be able to say THIS saddle style does or does not fit THIS horse in the ways intended by the design.

In any other skill inter-rater reliability is viewed as a crucial part of any credible opinion. Ie adequately trained people in any given area should broadly agree.

If 5 physios, or doctors, or mechanics, or farriers or engineers gave 5 completely different views on what was up with you/your car/your horses feet or the stability of a bridge then none of them would have credibility.

And yet I believe the most progressive voices in the industry say not to have a saddle fitted if the fitter doesn't have training from that brand, and quite often that's pretty in depth. This five might have different views but they would overlap, as do saddle fitters.

Doctors use imaging, all sorts of diagnostics, to assess systems within the human body which has had fortunes of money spent on research into them, and still we have varying second opinions, and areas where AI will likely do a better job.

Engineers are dealing with materials which also have datasets, behave in fixed ways and where interrelationships in performance between materials can be assessed. Mechanics the same. And yet we STILL see major difference of opinion, not just in the path to correction, but the analysis of the situation, causality etc.

Farriers are a bit more like saddle fitters, and look at the massive variation we see in the paradigm of different farriers, barefoot trimmers etc. They may concentrate on the foot but there SO many inputs and all within a situation where we are doing something nature never intended, for the horse to carry a dynamic load, and for us to be sat on a moving surface in hip flexion.

Add in two brains, the issues caused by what the horse and rider do the other 23 hours a day, previous unknown histories, what other inputs there are...

Look at all the horrors we are finding in horses in dissection, that show the horse should never have been ridden, or at least not ridden how it was. We are trying to deal with a very open system with a million moving parts, many unknown, many potentially dysfunctional. How on earth could one model fit that?

I'm sorry but I completely disagree.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I think similarly to what IHW has said, the everyday rider should also take some more responsibility for knowing what fits and what doesn't. I bought a new dressage saddle in Jan, on the same tree as my jump that he's been happy in a year, and a couple of weeks ago he was putting his back up so I got off and had a feel and could see what whilst appearing balanced, it was bridging so stopped using it before his back became bad. Fitter than came, agreed flocking had settled and amended it and he's now happy as larry again. I think if more people spotted problems before it gets to the painful back/muscle atrophy/compensatory place, then the pro fitters would have a much easier time fitting a well fitting saddle.

When I was first backing Dex I had a Stubben fitter come to the yard and try to convince me that their saddles fit, they just didn't and when I said so he went on about how the European way of fitting is different and blah blah blah, the tree was way too flat and it was too narrow.. I don't know what's European about that.

 

[sbloom]

Coming back to add, yes it would be great if all fitters could at least have a framework where we could all at least assess all saddles, even if we can't adjust them, or know how they should be changed. The industry is a LOOOONG way off that, but it's in part because of the complexities of the systems we're working with, not just a lack of "science". Most of the science that comes out is actually only very borderline relevant to most of us due to sample sizes and nature of the samples, as well as the fact that once you've reduced something to one measurable variable, how relevant can it possibly be to such complexity?

Then add in politics...and they are HUGE in the industry...

 

[scats]

I’m starting to get more round to the idea of fitting my own saddles and going by how the horse feels and moves.

 

[poiuytrewq]

The problem with self fitting is that huge differences can be made by flocking. The feel to ride in my saddle was so different post and pre flocking, nothing else was changed or altered but it went from not fitting nicely and to me feeling out of balance to being perfect again.
So I would always want a good fitter and yes they may or not not agree with another fitter but I trust the people I use and my horse and my feel back them up so we are all happy!

 

[Widgeon]

If you have a decent saddle and it’s not working you generally don’t loose a great deal buy exchanging on the second hand market.

Five years ago I would've agreed with you - when I bought my first horse I went to the local tack shop, selected four second hand saddles that were the right length and the right kind of shape (wide with a flat tree), gave the shop a deposit, took them home, and tried them on. One of them was clearly a good fit. So I bought it for about £350.

Now, very few shops even stock second hand saddles, and those that do won't do trials. So then you have to buy without trying it on, or online, and without seeing a saddle or having an encyclopedic knowledge of different makes and models, it's very hard to guess at whether it will fit. And then in addition, the second hand saddle market appears to be be stone dead, so you lose at least 50% selling it on.

It's all a bit of a nightmare.

 

[sbloom]

Five years ago I would've agreed with you - when I bought my first horse I went to the local tack shop, selected four second hand saddles that were the right length and the right kind of shape (wide with a flat tree), gave the shop a deposit, took them home, and tried them on. One of them was clearly a good fit. So I bought it for about £350.

Now, very few shops even stock second hand saddles, and those that do won't do trials. So then you have to buy without trying it on, or online, and without seeing a saddle or having an encyclopedic knowledge of different makes and models, it's very hard to guess at whether it will fit. And then in addition, the second hand saddle market appears to be be stone dead, so you lose at least 50% selling it on.

It's all a bit of a nightmare.

It is really difficult. It's a bit like Uber killing a lot of other transport options, the internet bringing buyers and sellers together...then add in Saddles Direct, Sheepham etc. Local fitters just can't make a living out of them, you have to carry a TON of stock to make it a realistic service which costs money unless you can do it all on sale or return (trade ins obviously cost money), and you make a lot less money for the same, or sometimes, more work.

 

[cremedemonthe]

Please please please could we use saddle fitter and not saddler...I've even had the accusations thrown at me they we fitters are trying to pass ourselves off as saddlers and I don't know a single fitter that isn't as irritated over this as I am.

Shorten to fitter within a conversation like this as we're clearly not talking about bit/bridle fitters .

This is my take on it, mad ow I've added a treeless brand to my "stable" it applies even more so:

Why can't saddle fitters agree?!

Isn't there great comfort in a set of rules? For my job, a universal truths of saddle fitting, so you can assess saddles and fitters against each other? If only. Did you know there are many, many ways to fit a saddle? The series of debates hosted by the Professional Saddle Fitter's Association...

stephaniebloomsaddlefitter.co.uk

But saddlers do fit saddles Sbloom and this is the problem which I have tried to explain so many times on here. I fit and flock saddles, been doing it 38 years and I do all saddlery manufacture, repairs and fitting including lorinery.
Saddle fitters, bridle fitters and bit fitters are a relatively new idea branching off from the traditional saddler and that's where it gets confusing for people, they think we are all the same thing. As I said in a previous post ask the saddler or saddle fitter who ever they are, where did they train. it gives you an insight of what they can and can't do.
I know being called a saddler when you are not can be irritating, I used to get called "the rug man" when I took rugs I had washed and repaired back to yards!
Oz - A SADDLER!

 

[sbloom]

But saddlers do fit saddles Sbloom and this is the problem which I have tried to explain so many times on here. I fit and flock saddles, been doing it 38 years and I do all saddlery manufacture, repairs and fitting including lorinery.
Saddle fitters, bridle fitters and bit fitters are a relatively new idea branching off from the traditional saddler and that's where it gets confusing for people, they think we are all the same thing. As I said in a previous post ask the saddler or saddle fitter who ever they are, where did they train. it gives you an insight of what they can and can't do.
I know being called a saddler when you are not can be irritating, I used to get called "the rug man" when I took rugs I had washed and repaired back to yards!
Oz - A SADDLER!

Some do, for sure, but here we're talking about saddle fitting and in 2025, so it's a saddle fitter, whether they're a saddler or not . I thought it hilarious that a saddler actually thought we were being fraudulent!

 

[cremedemonthe]

Some do, for sure, but here we're talking about saddle fitting and in 2025, so it's a saddle fitter, whether they're a saddler or not . I thought it hilarious that a saddler actually thought we were being fraudulent!

What exactly were they accusing you of! I would loved to have been there to see it! I need to catch up with you soon so will Pm you on messenger

 

[Baywonder]

Well my DH is a Saddler (50+ years) and he also fits saddles!

 

[poiuytrewq]

Well my DH is a Saddler (50+ years) and he also fits saddles!

A marriage of convenience

 

[Ambers Echo]

I mean no disrespect to saddle fitters who I am sure are very knowledgeable- but there appear to be 2 totally contradictory ideas being expressed: 1) saddle fitting is so incredibly complex that it is unrealistic to expect fitters trained to a certain standard to broadly agree with each other. not just on nuanced issues of optimal fit for performance but not even on: this saddle fits/ doesn’t fit your horse.

2) owners should learn how to fit their own saddles! With no training or assessment at all.

The bottom line is if you pay for 2 fitters, one of whom says yes it’s fine while the other says no doesn’t fit at all, and there is no way of differentiating those people, then neither opinion is helpful. You still don’t know if you should keep using the saddle or not.

From a customer PIV it’s very frustrating. I do not trust my own judgement and rely on advice. But whose?!

 

[canteron]

I can’t believe in 2025 we still rely so much on ‘eye’ and ‘feel’. I am sure with AI it should be possible to image a horse and get accurate readings to start the saddle fitting process? I guess there just isn’t the production money available to develop the technology?

 

[sbloom]

I mean no disrespect to saddle fitters who I am sure are very knowledgeable- but there appear to be 2 totally contradictory ideas being expressed: 1) saddle fitting is so incredibly complex that it is unrealistic to expect fitters trained to a certain standard to broadly agree with each other. not just on nuanced issues of optimal fit for performance but not even on: this saddle fits/ doesn’t fit your horse.

2) owners should learn how to fit their own saddles! With no training or assessment at all.

The bottom line is if you pay for 2 fitters, one of whom says yes it’s fine while the other says no doesn’t fit at all, and there is no way of differentiating those people, then neither opinion is helpful. You still don’t know if you should keep using the saddle or not.

From a customer PIV it’s very frustrating. I do not trust my own judgement and rely on advice. But whose?!

Gah, just wrote a long reply and it got eaten.

The more the customer can be involved in monitoring, the better. If that means working with your fitter, that's likely the best solution, but some will take it to the next level and, apart from flocking which few non-fitters should ever be doing, can keep their horse happy. They're with them every day, a saddle fitter has a snapshot to work with. Very different.

It IS complex and there are MANY different ideas of how to solve this "complex equation". It's not maths. For instance - for a saddle that's wagging at the back then with a treed saddle the most likely options are lift/stabilise at the front, for a treeless you're more likely to need more flexibility. The absolute opposite. And then we deal with most of the saddle fitting world who think that treeless are probably worthless...so they're not wanting to learn about them.

There are new brands, new approaches, new technologies coming out all the time. We try and keep on top of them, and if there's something that makes sense and we think will work for our market, then we may go and train to fit them. We'll need to train with the brand though in most cases. The big training organisations have some CPD, especially the SMS, but it's mostly focused, because of their founding principles, on fairly traditional English type saddles, in the main. It's why many of us do our own thing.

I do not think the problem lies, in the main, with individual fitters, and I have real problem with any organisation training a unified method of saddle fitting because of everything I've already said. I think it does the customer a disservice, and it leads to customers going "but it needs a 10cm channel because Schleese/SF4L says so" when it absolutely doesn't apply to most saddle or horses....

However I DO think that there is information out there to help you select between two opinions. And plenty at home - yours and your horse's opinion of how the saddle rides, and whether you are satisified with the explanations you've been given. Then there are reviews, there is the information you can glean about, or from, the fitter, on their background, their training, their philosophy of saddle fitting. Hell, if you're as frustrated as this you might even want to read all 4 (yep!) of my blog posts on how to select a fitter.

I can’t believe in 2025 we still rely so much on ‘eye’ and ‘feel’. I am sure with AI it should be possible to image a horse and get accurate readings to start the saddle fitting process? I guess there just isn’t the production money available to develop the technology?

It's only partly money. I mean I can't even get a computer to do my diary (the "travelling salesman" conundrum for computing power might still be a thing) successfully...if we can't train ourselves then we can't train AI. Not yet, and not for some time.

Someone asked about which treeless saddles were "proven" from pressure testing recently. Well, there's a particular brand that crows about being developed with pressure testing but they're a saddle I wouldn't EVER recommend in terms of loading and functionality for both horse and rider. The contibutors pretty much all agreed it's only applicable to one horse-rider combo because of all the variables, and even then spreading pressure across the upper back is a tiny part of fitting. In fact there have been really good results from a past mentor of mine in carrying the weight across 20-25cm of the horse's back....the rest is down to weight further down, down the inner thigh, and how and where the rider is loaded, making it easier for the horse to carry it.

We are starting to develop objective measures to quantify posture, but you know what? Most horses would be a "fail" and customers don't want to hear that. Correctly applied, science is going to give us more negative than positive feedback.

For anyone interested in where these things are going follow Equimetric and Maria Hallring online, both approach saddle fit from a perspective of correct movement for horse and rider and show just how much of saddle fitting success is actually rooted in training.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Saddle fitters and farrier's are the top 2 most difficult "professionals" that I've dealt with over my entire horsey life. I don't mean from a personality standpoint, but more of a quality and consistency level, I think.

I've bought saddles that I was assured fit both me and the horse to only be unhappy a few weeks later when the horse showed displeasure about it. Not every horse I've had has said "I don't like this" within the first ride or two when it comes to saddles. Of course once you buy it, then it's yours. Then when you go to resell, you lose money because they seem to depreciate like new cars in most instances.

When I was newer to dressage I was also sold a saddle that didn't work for me, but was told I just wasn't used to dressage saddles. The latter was true, but the saddle was unsuitable and I didn't know at the time due to my own lack of knowledge and reliance on a professional to steer me in the right direction.

I've also had a few saddle fitters who wanted me to "blind order" a saddle that I'd never sat in or put on my horse. Which, I didn't do. I've also ordered made to measure before and ended up with a saddle that didn't come close to fitting, and that wasn't due to the horse changing between measuring and the saddle arriving. That I would've accepted. The company worked with me somewhat on that one, atleast.

My current fitter is knowledgeable and respectable, but I just don't like his saddles so much. They're quite deep and blocky. He also fits in a way that makes me feel like I'm sitting atop the horse, if that makes sense. I've seen that more with fitters that sell, make, or carry English brands. Some of that is on me since that is just personal preference as I've become a diehard Amerigo fan, and that's just a totally different feel to Black Country, IMO.

I've also recently witnessed a fitter encourage and allow a customer to buy a saddle that wasn't a good fit and the horse was clearly uncomfortable in. The customer was told to "break it in" and this was a $6k saddle.

So it all comes down to customer education, mostly in that we need to educate ourselves and know our horses. It puts a lot on the customer, and we should be able to rely on the pro for that, but sadly, it's often not the case.

Many of us want to and will pay for good knowledge and a good product, but that's harder to do than it sounds.

My experience ranges from England, Germany, and to the USA. I've seen many of the same "issues" across these countries.

That being said, I've also found some great fitters in my travels. I do think that having a good inventory helps and is quite valuable. I get that's not an easy and/or affordable thing for all fitters though.

I can see why it's frustrating when one fits in this "style" and another in that "style" and you don't know which is best or right. Then you have the horse that can throw the book out the window, but IME, that hasn't been very common.

 

[Baywonder]

A marriage of convenience

Oh when I had a horse it was brilliant!

DH would arrive at the yard with a new saddle and say "I've just made this - try it out and see what you think of it!"

And of course I had free saddle checks too.

I had a lot of envious comments, I can tell you

 

[poiuytrewq]

Oh when I had a horse it was brilliant!

DH would arrive at the yard with a new saddle and say "I've just made this - try it out and see what you think of it!"

And of course I had free saddle checks too.

I had a lot of envious comments, I can tell you

I’m always really envious of people with useful O/H’s then I remember mine, although not at all horsey does supply me with free hay and straw which probably saves me more than a free professional in the long run!

 

[ihatework]

Five years ago I would've agreed with you - when I bought my first horse I went to the local tack shop, selected four second hand saddles that were the right length and the right kind of shape (wide with a flat tree), gave the shop a deposit, took them home, and tried them on. One of them was clearly a good fit. So I bought it for about £350.

Now, very few shops even stock second hand saddles, and those that do won't do trials. So then you have to buy without trying it on, or online, and without seeing a saddle or having an encyclopedic knowledge of different makes and models, it's very hard to guess at whether it will fit. And then in addition, the second hand saddle market appears to be be stone dead, so you lose at least 50% selling it on.

It's all a bit of a nightmare.

I suppose I’m lucky in that there is a wide enough network and I’m central enough that I can normally find a connection that means I just take the saddles away to try. But I’m not talking about£350 saddles, I’m talking circa £1500 saddles. In fact a friend of a friend left me with 3 saddles with a combined value of £5k recently to try for a couple of weeks. Bought 1, gave them back 2!

 

[Flame_]

I don't think expecting a rigid shape like a saddle and a moving, soft, ever changing thing like a horses back to align with one another is really possible. You want a saddle that works. I like my Reactor Panel which is flexible against the horse and on disks but if this isn't working out my approach is buy second hand (though I've made the mistake of going for a too old model - don't do that, the gullets used to all be narrow), have a couple of options and some good pads and do my best to make it work. I'm very sceptical about saddle fitting really being a thing.

 

[cremedemonthe]

Oh when I had a horse it was brilliant!

DH would arrive at the yard with a new saddle and say "I've just made this - try it out and see what you think of it!"

And of course I had free saddle checks too.

I had a lot of envious comments, I can tell you

My OH has bought a coloured cob, making her a bridle at the moment with purple lining as she's in to purple. I cannot find a saddle to fit either so that's next on the list, make one to fit

 

[fredflop]

I had a saddle fitter that tried to sell me a brand new saddle for a horse that i didn’t know if it could be brought back into work or not.

Needless to say I didn’t spend £1.5k on a new saddle, and that fitter will not be coming back!

 

[LEC]

I have used same saddle fitter for 10 years now who knows me really well and knows her brands inside out. I only ride in Amerigo or Equipe as just don’t like anything else. Makes life really easy. Just get whatever size/model is needed for the horse and handily last 4 have fitted same model and I have it in 2 widths for both dr and jump. I have noticed as I have become a better rider/trainer that I have much less issues with asymmetry in horses and have normally backed them myself or produced them since 4yo.

 

[hock]

It has taken me a long time to find a saddle fitter. A proper one, not a rep or a saddler. A proper knowledgeable saddle fitter. I sleep better at night, genuinely. The problem is most people don’t care about two things. First being I don’t need a saddle fitter it fits fine and then if they do see a need any saddle fitter will do providing someone they know recommends. This thread is unlikely to reach the people it desperately needs to reach. It’s one of the reasons I only buy/breed young horses, I don’t want another problem to iron out. So my advice from my own experiences is:

Master saddle fitter only.

They must/have ridden and to a decent level ie professionally or same level.

Have a solid knowledge and interest beyond the level they receive in qualifications for fitting.

Continue to develop their skill.

Never affiliated to one brand. Every fitter will have a preference of course but not locked into. There’s not just one solution no matter how revolutionary the saddle (and it’s not).

Straight talking - it can be hard to hear but necessary.

My job as an owner:

Be honest with my level of skill
And the work I put in and the type of work.

Follow the advice especially re: any shimming etc.

Use the saddler regularly - 3 ish months for me if the horseman regular work.

Use a great back person and dentist before the saddle fitter.

Pay them on the day or on arrival.

Support and promote them! My saddle fitter is bloody marvellous I feel so lucky to have finally found her and learnt so much. She has a passion for the job and has genuinely helped so many horses I know. It’s taken years to find my team so I try and help as many people as poss to know about the truly excellent practitioners!

 

[millitiger]

Like a few others on here, I buy second hand and fit my own.
It's worked well for the last 12 years, is infinitely cheaper and horses are happy.

I do have a very good saddler who comes once a year and flocks etc. and is also good with recommendations for brands of saddles if I've outgrown what we have.
He is fine for me to go off and source the saddle myself 2nd hand and if I think it needs flocking immediately, he comes out. Otherwise he's happy to just see it on his next scheduled visit.

I do feel most saddle fitters want to sell you a new saddle rather than make their money by actually fitting and flocking.
I understand why but it doesn't help horse owners when nearly every saddler seems to suggest a new saddle (which they just so happen to be the rep for).

 

[hock]

Like a few others on here, I buy second hand and fit my own.
It's worked well for the last 12 years, is infinitely cheaper and horses are happy.

I do have a very good saddler who comes once a year and flocks etc. and is also good with recommendations for brands of saddles if I've outgrown what we have.
He is fine for me to go off and source the saddle myself 2nd hand and if I think it needs flocking immediately, he comes out. Otherwise he's happy to just see it on his next scheduled visit.

I do feel most saddle fitters want to sell you a new saddle rather than make their money by actually fitting and flocking.
I understand why but it doesn't help horse owners when nearly every saddler seems to suggest a new saddle (which they just so happen to be the rep for).

Yep I’ve had my SF for 2 years now and she hasn’t sold me a saddle or even tried to and we have a lot of horses to fit. Just sees what saddles we’ve got then pummels away until they’re just right!

 

[JoannaC]

I recently had a new SF out and she didn't try to sell me a saddle even though I was happy to buy a new one. The previous SF sold me a made to measure which my mare hated right from the start so i'd been using an old saddle I already had which she seemed happy in until recently. She has broadened a lot since the M2M (now realise it was much too wide at the time) but when we tried it this time round it actually now fits her although still slips to the left a little but we decided to use a pad for the time being and re-evaluate in a few months as hopefully with more work she will change shape again. I would recommend her, she covers North Wales, Staffordshire, Cheshire area. If anyone wants her details pm me.