Saddlery fads

[eohippus6]

Are equine saddlery fads becoming more unsystematic when considering the horses’ needs? I do wonder, when I see more riders putting on and using saddlery inaccurately.
For instance, how many riders use a continental gag bit with one rein, usually on the second or third ring, a martingale and a flash noseband. This bit should be used with two reins, one on the snaffle and the other one on either of the lower rings, depending on the horse.
When used incorrectly, not only do you loose a lot of your lateral ability but it also tenses the neck muscles to such a degree that the horse cannot open through the shoulder, resulting in an incorrect outline, a choppy stride and an unhappy horse.
This bit is also an elevator, used to raise the head. So why the martingale? When you consider that most people use the martingale, usually for one reason only and mistakenly, to stop the horses’ head getting too high! (Seems like a contradiction in itself when used with an elevator bit?).
Combined with this and in individual cases, I also see many a horse with the saddle seated far too forward, normally too narrow, so that the panels lie directly on top of the shoulder blade and the girth tightly pressing on the pectoral muscles directly behind the elbow. I would think most of these horses are difficult to girth up, are reluctant to go forward freely and are having problems with their jumping.
I, for one, would like to see a horse, because the rider obviously feels out of control to justify using saddlery in such a way, taken back to basics and taught how to be obedient to the aids, and the rider taught how to use the seat and legs. Or simply to research the correct use of saddlery before buying or following the latest fad.

 

[chestnut cob]

[ QUOTE ]
I, for one, would like to see a horse, because the rider obviously feels out of control to justify using saddlery in such a way, taken back to basics and taught how to be obedient to the aids, and the rider taught how to use the seat and legs. Or simply to research the correct use of saddlery before buying or following the latest fad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with you on this. The only extra tack I use is a breatplate for jumping, just to make sure my saddle doesn't slip backwards. I sometimes ride him in a flash, but try to leave it off as often as possible, and he is ridden in the mildest bit for the circumstances (myler comfort snaffle with no flash at the moment). I have never used a martingale on him and never plan to. I hope that with the bare minimum of gadgets etc, I can have a well mannered, well schooled pony who is responsive to his rider, and not the tack I have on him.

 

[druid]

A passage from Bits and Bitting about Dutch gags...

[ QUOTE ]
There are latter day arrivals [snaffles] fitted with 'multi-ring' cheeks. They almost overlap into the Pelham and curb groups, but not quite since they employ no curb chain. What is confusing is that some patterns are described as 'elevators' or American/Dutch 'gags'. By definition a 'gag' operates with an acentuated snaffle action to raise the head, but that is certainly not the sction of these curiosuly mis-named bits-just the oppisite infact. ....... Use the rein on the top ring and you have ordinary snaffle action - well, nearly: in fact since the small ring to which the bridle cheeks are attached is set above the top rein there will also be some nominal downward pressure on the poll, which has the effect of lowering the head. Place the rein on a lower ring, and the poll pressure is increased as well as the pressure across the lower jaw - and that, despite the absence of a curb chain, is very close to the action of a curb bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[miamibear]

One lady down at my yard (who doesnt really like me or my horse - for reasons unknown) said to a friend loud enough for me to hear when i was going hacking out with a snaffle bridle that she would never ever ride any horse without a martingale, in fact every horse should be ridden in one without exception.

Im sure it was a dig at me but it made me laugh and think how little she really knows!!

What bits are used to raise heads, ive never got this into my head properly - i have a horse that burries himself??

Mel x

 

[druid]

I think only "real" gags like the Cheltenham Gag actually raise the head.

 

[Alibear]

I'm backing both Druids posts her from research and practicle experience. Dutch "gags" do not seem to raise a horses head instead they seem to lower it.

 

[juliehannah58]

I have been recommended to try a dutch gag for my mare, who until 6months ago had terrible teeth (14 yrs old and never been done!) so although all fixed she hates pressure on her mouth. I have her in a snaffle at the mo but to be honest as she is getting fitter I need something stronger. I was told to use the dutch gag because its not all that different in the mouth from a snaffle but has the added poll pressure, as she has quite a high head carriage I definitely don't want it any higher!

 

[nelgonde]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm backing both Druids posts her from research and practicle experience. Dutch "gags" do not seem to raise a horses head instead they seem to lower it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Getting confused... (easily done lol). Make them flex at the poll don't they?

 

[Alibear]

Yep from ym limited experience they seem to bring the nose down and in. I posted a few times about it on here and did some reading up and me, Tia and I think Druid as well came up with similar articles to the one shes'posted on this thread.

They really don't work like gags are supposed to hence calling them gags is possibly a bit of a misnomer. Hence using a dutch gag and a martinglae makes sense.
Also henc ei can use on on my chap as he curls up anyway I was after something to help raise his head a bit.

AS fro saddlery fads, everything gets miss-used as least people now a days accept it's the norm that you need to get your tack checked and you may actually be better of changing your tack throughout the horses life.

 

[eohippus6]

Quote: from foxhunter equestrian.

3 RING GAG Return to the top of this page
is also called a European ELEVATOR, or an American gag or an American elevator bit. Another name would be theCONTINENTAL gag bit. These bits operate similarly to a pelham without a curb. Some riders use two reins, allowing the one rein to act like a normal snaffle rein. Depending on the ring chosen to attach the lower rein, the poll pressure can be severe. These bits are frowned upon by some experts. They contend that there are other bits that perform the same functions better and more safely than these bits.

quote: from Stable talk. BIT BANK Expert

THE DUTCH GAG - SOLVING OR CAUSING PROBLEMS
By Ken Perrin of the SALE or RETURN BIT BANK

...........Well, the Dutch gag can be a very strong bit, who's action is to roll against the gums and lift the head, coupled with this is a lever system (martingale) that makes it even stronger. Then, someone comes up with the bright idea to put a flash noseband on it because during all this, the poor animal keeps opening it's mouth. Imagine yourself with a tooth ache. You either hold the side thats hurting, are constantly moving your jaw and playing with the sore tooth with your tongue to get in a comfortable position to lessen the agony - WHILST MOANING IN AGONY. Poor Horse. It's already in pain and frightened of getting hurt anymore so it's natural 'Fright & Flight' instincts takes over and it zooms off! Oh, and it cannot moan to let you know!

.......Firstly, how much Instruction do you get? The top riders in the world all have lessons. Put a Dutch gag into their hands and the Horse probably wouldn't even know it's there. They have the seat and more importantly the 'hands', through years of schooling and instruction not to let it make much difference. Unfortunately, the Dutch Gag is often used to overcome a deficiency in the riders (or instructors) ability to understand the basics of schooling, or is used on the advice of a 'friend' who 'thinks' it will overcome your problem. If you are using a Dutch gag through a 'friends' advice, ask this friend how many sets of reins it should be ridden in. They probably would say one. Actually, it should ALWAYS be used with two, one set on the bit ring (snaffle action) and the other on either the first or second ring down.

This gives the horse the freedom to relax and is only 'reminded' when the Gag rein comes into action. If using a martingale, this can be attached to the snaffle rein, not the gag rein. In conclusion, and I know I have been very forthright about Dutch Gags, but I really feel that they cause more problems than they solve. If you are having to use a 'strong' bit, maybe instruction and schooling will allow for a gentler, kinder bit to be used with better results and more pleasurable riding.

Ken Perrin will gladly answer all bitting enquiries and problems. Just Ring HTS Equestrian on (01933) 277515.


The point I was trying to make is that the use of saddlery is being abused and used with ignorance. Would you use a curb type bit, ie a pelham with one rein only?
Riders, instructors (some) and do gooders tend to go for the quick fix rather than taking time and going back to basics when needed.

 

[patchandloopy]

wow-i have NEVER seen the dutch gag being used with 2 reins!

 

[Sare]

Removed in the interests of a quiet life

 

[chestnut cob]

I have always wondered whether it ought to be used with two reins. It does make sense.

I've got a waterford gag that I've used no more than a handful of times. Never used it with two reins, but my horse hates it so it's gathering dust somewhere in the tack room!

 

[druid]

I use my Waterford gag with 2 reins out hunting, but am the only person I know who does.

 

[eohippus6]

The elevator action means lifting of the head and neck position rather than the nose by itself. So it may drop the nose and bring it in but the head carriage is elevated. Does that make sense? I think I explained that ok.

I feel that fads are started by seeing something being used and copying it without knowing why and what for, aren't they?
so, by seeing a large majority of horses, that behave, are ridden and are schooled differently but all using the same tack, couldn't this be construed as a fad rather than a need.

 

[Weezy]

I use a running martingale on my jumping horses - why? Well when fitted 100% correctly it will NEVER interfere with the horse's way of going - it cannot possibly do so. You have the added bonus of having a neckstrap to hand should you require it (always a good safety feature). Should the horse raise its head to danger level, THEN and only then does the martigale come into play.

And yes, I have ridden in a pelham with no curb rein - it was the only way of riding a JA that I had the ride on - dont ask me why, we experimented with a lot of variations and it worked!

However, I do not condone riding with a continental gag without having a rein on the snaffle ring - you cannot get any proper feel from the horse at all and I agree that it hampers movement.

 

[eohippus6]

I agree about the martingale if used correctely. The pelham rein was on the snaffle ring I assume, not on the curb? I understand there are one offs to the tack ruling.
Sometimes I think as well, that the manufacturing of so much different types of tack nowdays can be very confusing to some. But the principles of how the tack should work are there.
Do you think that tack shop owners and instructors should be more educational and upto date with knowledge of tack.
Or do you think that a lot of instructors (not all), particularly freelance, are more interested in getting a quick response to justify their costs rather than taking the time to reeducate the horse and rider?
I find that unless a rider experiences a quick fix they are not prepared to pay for sessions over a longer time, even if it means it is best for the horse in the long run. Some riders are in too much of a rush to get things done, and dont realise the consequences until it is too late.
Others have no instruction or coaching and copy what they see other wearing because they think it is right without the understanding of why.

 

[Halfstep]

The dutch gag is a typical example of a bit that has become fashionable and misused. With the reins on the biggest ring, the action is similar as that of a baucher or hanging cheek snaffle. It employs minimal poll pressure, but because the mouthpiece can slide up the ring, it also has a light elevator action, moving the mouthpiece up in the mouth. When you move the reins down to the second or third ring, both these actions are increased - and on the third ring the curb pressure can be quite strong. Thats why if you use a rein on the bottom two rings, you should also use a rein on the "snaffle" setting. The mouthpiece of this bit is important - a single jointed mouthpiece can cause significant pressure on the tongue and roof of mouth. A french link mouthpiece will lessen this pressure. For a strong pulling horse, I would prefer a waterford mouthpiece to a single jointed snaffle, but always with two reins if using the lower rings. Because of the ubiquity of this bit (especially in SJ), people use it without realising its power.

 

[Alibear]

So we have two quotes from two seperate bitting experts explaining the use of dutch gags. However they say it has OPPOSITE effects.

Ok so the experts don't agree so howon erth should we be informed then? This is where I take the try it and see approach and for me I'm with the bits and bitting lady.

The american gag by the way is not the same as a dutch gag. The american gags is all metal with long curved sides and no sign of a bubble ring anywhere.
I agree that the american gag does elevate the head most succesfully same as the cheltenham gag.

 

[eohippus6]

THe post was to do with the misuse of tack and bits.
On one post It did explain the 3 ringed gag also known as the american gag, the european gag or the continental gag. These are also other names for the dutch gag. The bits and bitting lady said that when used on the large ring gave a slight poll pressure due to the slight leverage from the upper ring being conected on to the cheek peices, the same action as a hanging cheek snaffle. By definition a curb works on the chin groove by action of the chain. So in the abscence of the chain it cannot work as a curb, but on the lower ring adds more leverage more in the vain of the traditional american gag with long shanks and added levarage, which raises the head. What ever the name this type of gag should be used with two reins.

 

[JAK]

[ QUOTE ]
The only extra tack I use is a breatplate for jumping, just to make sure my saddle doesn't slip backwards. I sometimes ride him in a flash, but try to leave it off as often as possible, and he is ridden in the mildest bit for the circumstances (myler comfort snaffle with no flash at the moment). I have never used a martingale on him and never plan to. I hope that with the bare minimum of gadgets etc, I can have a well mannered, well schooled pony who is responsive to his rider, and not the tack I have on him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Couldn't agree more!
All 3 of ours wear the same bit 4 general hacking & schooling, a very mild French-link snaffle & all go really well in it.
We took off the fat orange one's flash 2 see what would happen...nothing did & he has been 2 a show without it & behaved perfectly! (Well OK, it WAS in my pocket, just in case but never got used!)
New pony, who is big strong hefty cob thing & seems a teensy bit used 2 chucking his weight around may well need something a bit stronger 4 the more exciting stuff but 4 so far, we have had no problems with him in a snaffle 4 general use!
Would only use what I considered necessary but at the same time, wouldn't risk kids, ponies or others by putting them in something that wasn't going 2 b sufficient 2 b able 2 control them effectively!
A good relationship & effective schooling is much more important than a "quick-fix" gadget IMO & I always like 2 start with the mildest bit possible & work from there.

 

[chestnut cob]

I've had to use stronger bits on mine in the past but now he's settled down and responded to consistent schooling he goes in myler snaffle for schooling, a hanging cheek snaffle for SJing and a waterford snaffle for XC. He hacks out in the myler as well, unless I know we're going in company and likely to be cantering, in which case he goes in the hanging cheek.

I took the flash off on saturday at a dressage comp for the first time in ages and he went so much better without it! Don't all yell at me for this, but I do wonder how many people use a flash purely because most bridles now come with flash attachment?!

 

[Gingernags]

[quoteWe took off the fat orange one's flash 2 see what would happen...nothing did & he has been 2 a show without it & behaved perfectly! (Well OK, it WAS in my pocket, just in case but never got used!)


[/ QUOTE ]

I have a fat orange thing too! I have to admit I've simplified and simplified my tack. Having read the Myler book on why they believe some horses have issues with some types of bit - it makes a lot of sense to me. Following their advice - I changed Ast's bit to a Myler snaffle with a medium port and a lot of her bad habits vanished.

I can't see why you fasten a horses mouth shut with flash or grakle nosebands - you just treat the symptom not the cause.

Asti is shown in her WHP classes in a noseband and breastplate/running martingale - but for hacking - the whole lot comes off. No noseband or martingale, just a snaffle or hackamore.

Its why I dislike a lot of showing classes - they advise you to ride in a double or pelham with 2 reins - why should you if your horse is fine in a snaffle and IMO better mannered? Madness. I'm liking the simple life - less to clean!

 

[Weezy]

Yes of course the rein was on the snaffle ring of the pelham, should have clarified that!

I absolutely think that tack shop sales people and owners should be MUCH more clued up - mine are excellent on feeding advice, though have not tested them on anything else!

Yes a lot of instructors are after a quick fix and it really saddens me - the long term picture is far more important.

 

[PoppyPony]

the pony i loan at first was ridden exactly as you described - gag on the 2nd ring and sometimes 2rd, martingale and flash noseband. after a while i removed all the crap and held the bridle in my hand - so much lighter! and it showed in the way he moved as well (this was with a single-jointed eggbutt snaffle) then i tried him with my instructor's myler comfort snaffle, no noseband or anything. i have not fallen off since!!!
only problem - his owner came down the other day, changed it all back and now i am not allowed to ride in the myler. i was so upset i cried buckets! now i am just going to have to put up with it

sorry this turned into a rant!

 

[lordflynn]

actually think you're right-most people use them because they are there!
really dont like them personally (and not only because I hate cleaning tack

)

 

[sojeph]

I'm with you there! These continentals with one rein is a real fad! It used to be snaffles or pelhams, cavesson or drop noseband, martingale or not! Saddle, with or without a cotton numnah and that was that! Now its just quick fix. All mine are ridden in a snaffle, no noseband cos it gets in the way and a saddle. I think going back to basics is the way to go with problem horses alot of the time-most are running away from some kind of pain or discomfort. Also saddle fitting-its so easy to buy a saddle off ebay or a catalgue without knowing how the hell to fit one. I also think saddlers/tack shop owners should be obliged to know what the hell they are selling.
Just my two peneth worth!

 

[JessPickle]

Well I personally just have a normal bridle with a cavesson bridle, I use a martingale out hacking as he tends to bring his head up very high if in a flighty mood, the rest of the time he doesnt wear it at all, he is ridden in a waterford loose ring which does the job I need it for. Dutch gags dont appear to raise head carriage on any horses I have seen them on, other gags do (they use one on a horse at our yard that took a liking to putting his head on the floor whiel cantering!

 

[CastleMouse]

I use a Dutch gag on the second hole (I'd never use it on the third), a flash and a martingale and breastplate when jumping, and for flatwork I use an eggbutt snaffle and no other extra bits of tack.