Saddles… adjustable or non adjustable

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Darcey22

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Hey there
I wonder if you can help me.
In January I am going to be looking for a dressage saddle for my mare.
Her current saddle is a bates gp saddle and my current saddle fitter only stocks new saddles and only adjustable.
She thinks I need a Fairfax with external knee block, but I really like the look of a Black Country saddles but understand they are not adjustable and wondered what your thoughts are on adjustable verses non adjustable saddles? And Fairfax verses Black Country?
 
I am not a fan of anything with a gullet in as I think they are not the ideal shape for back, and cause muscle limitations.

Most treed saddles can be made wider or narrower by a saddler. I have had adjustments made in both directions.

On the other hand if you are already using a gulleted saddle in the bates, I dont support it makes any difference for dressage saddle.

I would say whether either make of dressage saddle suits your horse, you like it to ride in, your horse likes it to be ridden in, more important than trying to decide wihtout trying them.
 
Fieldlife said:
I am not a fan of anything with a gullet in as I think they are not the ideal shape for back, and cause muscle limitations.

Most treed saddles can be made wider or narrower by a saddler. I have had adjustments made in both directions.

On the other hand if you are already using a gulleted saddle in the bates, I dont support it makes any difference for dressage saddle.

I would say whether either make of dressage saddle suits your horse, you like it to ride in, your horse likes it to be ridden in, more important than trying to decide wihtout trying them.
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Yes I suppose I need to go with a saddler that has more range of choice than just adjustable don’t I? X
 
I have had lots of experience with both and am happy to go with whatever fits the horse. Ive just had a mid range expensive saddle fitted for Orbi, its a k2 adjusta gp albion and of course it needed adjusted 🤣. But my ideal fits him too and it is adjustable by a saddle fitter and has been adjusted for BB.
I also have a wintec and a thorowgood in storage.
 
Darcey22 said:
Hey there
I wonder if you can help me.
In January I am going to be looking for a dressage saddle for my mare.
Her current saddle is a bates gp saddle and my current saddle fitter only stocks new saddles and only adjustable.
She thinks I need a Fairfax with external knee block, but I really like the look of a Black Country saddles but understand they are not adjustable and wondered what your thoughts are on adjustable verses non adjustable saddles? And Fairfax verses Black Country?
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I had a Black country and hated it, was glad to get rid of it.

way to high in front.

I like K&M as you can change the gullet like bates as the horse changes shape. I wasted to much much on non gullet change ones
 
I would find the money to try something with a wooden tree, and compare. I'm with @Fieldlife and am not a fan of adjustables, generally. Most are very narrow in the head (ie the pommel is like an upside down C) and the rest of the tree shape, construction, panels etc aren't the way I like to fit. This https://stephaniebloomsaddlefitter.co.uk/blog-and-resources/why-cant-saddle-fitters-agree may give you some context/food for thought. And bear in mind saddles need to fit you, not just the horse, and the gold standard of that is a supported, neutral pelvis at rest, correctly draped leg, with no discomfort (very rare!). @ILuvCowparsely's comment shows that no matter how well the saddle might fit the horse it must be right for you, and not just the basic geometry etc.
 
I'm not keen on adjustable either they don't work for wider horses generally which is what I have.

I loved the 2 Black country saddles I had never ridden in a fairfax so can't comment on that.

You really need to try them and see what suits you really.
 
I am looking at second hand saddles. I was lucky with Homey he had his adjustable saddle company for 15 years and was quite content with it. Had it checked every 6 months. Never had any issues with his back.

So I got one made to measure for Bert as Homey's 16.5 was too long for Bert. I did use it for a bit on him temporarily as saddle fitter said it was ok for walking in whilst waiting for his saddle to be made.

Having had two different saddle fitters check his saddle and on a regular basis (I got a different person to work on it when my fitter had to take off work due to an injury) he changes shape very frequently and nearly two years of saddle issues I am considering other saddles. I love the saddle I have it is comfortable, it is leather with the longer flaps, and point straps. It is nice and light with serge underneath. Bert has never had a bad back from it checked both by vet and physio. But I think possibly he is not keen on it.

He seems to change shape very frequently so saddle is ok for a month or 6 weeks and then needs adjustment again as he starts to get nappy or it moves around. Though last time we thought it was his saddle I decided his behaviour was so bad extreme and had gone from being really good to refusing to move under saddle to get the vet out and it did turn out after much investigation that he had a liver issue which thankfully now almost back to normal. But of course now his saddle doesn't fit properly again due to only doing ground work whilst poorly over the last two months and putting on weight. Although he is not napping it is not stable enough and I certainly would not feel comfortable cantering or jumping in it. Ok for walking and a tiny bit of trot.

Very few fitters have second hand and I can't afford to buy new and then find another saddle issue or he doesn't like it. The moment you sit on a new saddle if needing to sell it again even if good as new condition the price rapidly drops.

I have found a saddle fitter recommeded by a friend that has 7 saddles that might fit Bert which are various prices.

I sent over a photo of Bert in his 16 inch and they said possibly he could take a 16.5 but I know different brands fit in different way but I am small enough to fit into a 15 inch as well but they don't have any 15 inches second hand. My normal fitter who does not suppy second hand but would be willing to check a second hand one if I got one from ebay was suggesting trying 15 inch in case Bert preferred a shorter saddle.

However some of them from the other fitter are not adjustable trees. There is an ideal GP and a Jeffries VSD which are reasonable prices but not adjustable tree or gullet so it would be flocking only both are older saddles.

They also have a couple of jump saddles that might be ok as well. Any dreams of going out showing are not going to be happening as I can't afford it for the foreseeable future because of cost of lorry hire, the situation with my parents and spending so much on vets, saddle appointments and physio over the past two years and help with exercise and uncertainty with Bert so I don't mind a jump saddle if the fit is better. There is a Harry Dabs which is reasonable.

They did have a selection of second hand kent and masters but they are all sold. This time of year pony saddles get sold quickly because of people getting new ponies and pony club activities.

I am hoping now Bert is 7 he has finished growing. He has filled out loads and now looks similar in build to Homey. Bert needs to lose some weight as whilst feeling poorly with his liver condition he was only doing light ground work. There was no point looking at alternative saddles until I knew his bloods were normal again and he was feeling better.

The non adjustable saddles could I presume be adjusted a bit with different flocking or possibly shims if a fitter works with shims. I do have shims and different numnahs.

There was another fitter recommended and he doesn't have anything in Bert's size second hand but if I wanted adjustable he could get him a new wintec which are reasonable price.

If I get another saddle from another fitter I also need to make sure they can manage the aftercare and will resell for me if it doesn't work out. Everyone seems to be able to fit you in quickly if you are wanting to buy but then it is a different matter when you need the after care.

I know so many people who have really struggled with saddles spending huge amounts on new saddles and it not working out.

I have never had a non adjustable saddle before but a lot of people do have them so wonder if worth considering.

I was blessed with Homey and always appreciated and loved him. We had our challenges over 15 years but the longer he has been gone the more I realise how great and special and easy he was in so many ways.
 
The biiiiiiig, broad-backed, giant 18 y o Clydie x I ride once or twice a week for a friend [whose focused on her young horse], has his own made to measure Black Country dressage saddle.

My friend did the measuring of his back -- sent details to UK where it was made, and sent out to her. Not sure how it was 'fine tuned' on him once it arrived here in south eastern Australia. My friend also puts a zilco gel-lite pad under it, then a saddle blanket.

It fits him superbly - [he's not had back issues in years, as far as I know] and its a lovely saddle to ride in. Puts me in a good neutral pelvis position, with as much leg drape as one can get on an incredibly wide horse.

Its a much nicer saddle to ride in than the one I rode my own horse in. I rode my own now retired wb gelding for 10 years in a Wow dressage saddle, which tbh suited him, but was far to big and high in the pommel, with a balance point way too far back; which put me in a chair seat, so, when I wasn't 'climbing the pommel' I was trying to find somewhere neutral to sit.

Looking back, I always felt insecure in the Wow, and like I was too far up 'above' the horse's back. I told my Wow saddle fitter over and over and over again about these issues, and she just kept shimming up the back part of the saddle with air. Which didn't deal with the underlying cause.

So, hopping onto the Black Country saddle, every week, on my borrowed Clydie boy, is a joy and a pleasure in comparison, and its done my seat the world of good.
 
I was advised to get an adjustable saddle for my horse some years ago so bought a new Hastilow. It has never needed to be adjusted 🙄
 
ThreeFurs said:
Its a much nicer saddle to ride in than the one I rode my own horse in. I rode my own now retired wb gelding for 10 years in a Wow dressage saddle, which tbh suited him, but was far to big and high in the pommel, with a balance point way too far back; which put me in a chair seat, so, when I wasn't 'climbing the pommel' I was trying to find somewhere neutral to sit.

Looking back, I always felt insecure in the Wow, and like I was too far up 'above' the horse's back. I told my Wow saddle fitter over and over and over again about these issues, and she just kept shimming up the back part of the saddle with air. Which didn't deal with the underlying cause.
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WOW are so dependent on having a good fitter who knows their range. My first WOW was 2017 and I was never secure in the seat and felt like I was sitting on the pommel. I use that seat for a different pony now and was recently moaning to my (very good saddler) who told me she would never have suggested that design for my thigh length. I've tried some different ones and the improvement was so marked I got my cheque book out!
 
SO1 said:
The non adjustable saddles could I presume be adjusted a bit with different flocking or possibly shims if a fitter works with shims. I do have shims and different numnahs.
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Never presume....but yes, shims and flocking are absolutely valid ways of adjusting, both are temporary in many ways though of course sometimes flocking doesn't need further adjustments for months or years, and occasionally shims are a valid way of achieving a long term fit where the combo are super tricky and/or funds are very tight. It's not perfect but we either help horses or abandon them because of circumstances.

Adjustable headplates really aren't much different, adjusting the width/angle at the front is a small part of saddle fitting and, if I haven't said it before on this thread, then I see more horses need a completely different saddle once they've changed two tree widths, than don't.

And yes @SEL , rider fit has a LONG way to go even when looking at something as basic as block position for a particular femur length (I believe there's much more to it than that but it's certainly a requirement!).
 
@SO1 Where abouts are you - am I right in thinking you are in the SE? If so, if you like I can PM you the details of my saddle fitter who has fitted my NF pony for years and years (who too has changed shape numerous times and is sensitive - he'll let you know if he's not happy!). They are entirely independant so have nothing to gain or lose and very good.
 
MuddyMonster said:
@SO1 Where abouts are you - am I right in thinking you are in the SE? If so, if you like I can PM you the details of my saddle fitter who has fitted my NF pony for years and years (who too has changed shape numerous times and is sensitive - he'll let you know if he's not happy!). They are entirely independant so have nothing to gain or lose and very good.
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Yes I am in that area Berks/South Bucks.
 
sbloom said:
Never presume....but yes, shims and flocking are absolutely valid ways of adjusting, both are temporary in many ways though of course sometimes flocking doesn't need further adjustments for months or years, and occasionally shims are a valid way of achieving a long term fit where the combo are super tricky and/or funds are very tight. It's not perfect but we either help horses or abandon them because of circumstances.

Adjustable headplates really aren't much different, adjusting the width/angle at the front is a small part of saddle fitting and, if I haven't said it before on this thread, then I see more horses need a completely different saddle once they've changed two tree widths, than don't.

And yes @SEL , rider fit has a LONG way to go even when looking at something as basic as block position for a particular femur length (I believe there's much more to it than that but it's certainly a requirement!).
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(Sorry Darcey22 - digressing slightly)
I love reading your valuable input into saddle threads sbloom. You are such an asset to the forum. I’m as guilty as the next person of focusing 100% on the horses needs and “making do” on saddles that don’t fit me (I’m difficult to fit). Just as horses are all shapes and sizes, so are humans. Are there any saddle manufacturers that have done extensive research on the human conformation in their designs, or is this an area currently overlooked?. I did once try a saddle that said it was designed for the female form, only to find it didn’t fit me at all - but then I don’t have a typical woman’s conformation !

Interesting on the adjustable headplates as I had a fairfax on one of my horses and once she needed a different size plate put in, the saddle became unstable despite trying to alter with flocking. I ended up keeping the original head plate she was fitted in, and used different pads and shims (which kind of defeats the object of getting an adjustable saddle).
 
lizziebell said:
Are there any saddle manufacturers that have done extensive research on the human conformation in their designs, or is this an area currently overlooked?
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Yes and no. There are some companies doing "research" but not many, a few brands/fitters focusing on doing better for the rider - Knights, Ghost, ErgoX2 (who have mapped over 6000 pelvises but it's out fitting, it's not true research), Louisa Cuomo and Connect Equine would be the ones that come to mind. Schleese sort of do it, but they take moulds of butts which is much less important than the pelvis IMO.

I have no interest in starting my own brand so I focus on sourcing saddles that can do this. These brands are not all doing the same things, far from it, and no idea if they're all doing it correctly/successfully, or my take on what that constitutes anyway!

Research in this industry isn't easy as it's SO complex, and only certain companies have the money to fund it, witness the money that Fairfax pumps into it. Yet the studies can be difficult to extrapolate and often the results don't actually help us at all and don't apply at all to, say, a round cob hacking round the lanes twice a week. I mean we ended up with "no elastic in girths" from one study where N=10, "elite" horses and riders, and yet I was shouted down by a member of the research team, online, when I explained that three fitters, including me, with a collective 70+ years of fitting experience, found that elasticated girths worked better on the saddles WE fit, OUR WAY. How can that be wrong? I emphasised I was not telling everyone else they SHOULD use elastic...it's nuts!


And as long as we use top competition horses as the study group and assume that A, the way they move is correct and B, that that way of moving is therefore the paradigm and desirable, then we're chasing shadows. Most top dressage riders are leaning back and leveraging off their knee blocks - we have almost completely lost the classical seat in dressage, let alone developed a better, newer version that would help horses even more, with our modern understanding of, say, fascia. We have too many people who don't understand the effect of the saddle>rider>horse and just bang on about rider biomechanics (the modern type) or getting lunge lessons (the classical type). We are amateurs who sit at desks and drive cars, but our horses deserve us to be more stable, to help them. Why would we not do that? The barrier is cost, and customisation, resale values, adaptability to other horses, fashion (bling, high cantles, big blocks), fear (NEED big blocks, high cantle)...there's such a long way to go.

Female saddles are mostly BS, the outlet shape is not as different between the average man or woman, there's a much bigger range within women's shapes, and within men's. It's mostly marketing. Even archaeologists admit that the pelvis alone can't be used to establish sex as much as people imagine.
 
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