Saddles and horses - Long Rant (sorry)

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OldieButGoodie

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in 2016 I decided to save up for a nice dressage saddle for my lovely ID x gelding (now 9yo) and spent some time doing research on saddle makes/types. At the time he was quite rotund with a small wither and slightly croup high. In 2017 I had enough money and plumped on a make of saddle I thought would be suitable for his breeding and shape then contacted their regional saddle fitter (saddle fitter #1). Sent off photos and details as requested and saddle fitter arrives and fits a saddle. It’s lovely & horse seems happy and fitter comes out at regular intervals to check fit and adjust as required.

A few months ago it’s clear to me saddle doesn’t fit as its slipping to one side. I duly call fitter #1 out. She agrees that saddle is now way too wide and says she’ll come back with alternative narrower saddles and that I can part ex the old saddle for a new saddle. Sounded all too easy. I of course assume that the change in shape is down to the diet I’ve had the horse on and the increased exercise (so naïve!). New saddle arrives and is fitted. Being a new saddle I have a 14 days trial on it.

However. At the same time my other horse (5yo Connemara) is showing intermittent back pain – so I call his saddle fitter (saddle fitter #2) out to double check his saddle fits. Saddle’s fine but she expresses concern about horse as he is clearly in pain and unhappy. So she recommends physio/vet asap. I duly call physio and vet. Physio comes out the next morning and gets the horse out of pain and then phones the vet to discuss her findings. Vet comes out, checks the horse and decides he needs to do back xrays to rule out kissing spines. Horse has just turned 5 and never been in consistent work down to this recurring back pain and I am gutted that despite my best efforts he is still in pain (he is such a lovely animal I feel absolutely blessed to have him). Vet says don’t worry - in his experience most folk don’t bother about intermittent back pain they just continue to ride the horse and the horse simply puts up with it. He is just glad I’ve called him out so the horse has a chance. (Utterly fabulous vet that!)

But I digress – while saddle fitter #2 is there I mentioned that my other horse (the IDx) had been getting girthy which is really odd because he’s normally such a gentle laid back soul. So this saddler offers to check him and his saddle. Before the saddle went anywhere near him she said the muscles had atrophied on the withers and that it wasn’t weight loss as I assumed. I told her the make of saddle and she said it was highly likely the tree was the wrong shape for him and that the points had been digging into his withers. She checked the saddle and confirmed her suspicions. Rightly or wrongly she also questioned the qualifications of fitter #1 (erhm I don’t think #1 has any formal/master saddle fitting qualifications - but I may be wrong though) and then went on to say she didn’t have a great opinion of the saddle maker either (based on her years in the field with saddle fitting and equine biomechanics.).

So anyway I send the new saddle back to the saddle maker. Which costs me a lot of money in packaging, courier and insurance. Saddle maker receives carefully wrapped and boxed saddle and informs me today the saddle is marked from the 3 times I rode in it so she’ll be taking money off the refund. Great. Thanks. And how much do I get for fixing my poor damaged horse then? Nothing? Ah well there’s a surprise!

At the same time the saddle fitter (#1) informs me I need to take the old dressage saddle back - the one I part exchanged. Great. More money! Not only must I pay the postage I’ll be then left with a saddle that I somehow have to sell. Surely the saddle fitter would actually be in a better position to do that than me since she sells/fits these saddles? Honestly… Makes me so frustrated. Anyway I’ve just paid up and shut up because basically I can’t really argue with either of them and at the end of the day I just want my two wonderful patient horses to be OK and happy.

Rant over and a large G&T with ice and a slice for anyone who made it this far!
 
I know it is frustrating when you put your trust in a professional and they let you down, unfortunately a similar thing happened to me I couldn't understand why a saddle would become too wide if the horse has not lost weight, I know you have lost a lot of money but at least you know what you need to do now and muscle does come back with the right fitting saddle and work.

I had a saddle fitter called Lavinia Mitchell out when I had lost faith in my usual fitter she fits in a slightly different way she uses a too wide saddle and a shim numnah with horses that have muscle damage, I ended up buying one of her saddles and 4 years on my horse my horse has a normal healthy back, I could feel the difference in him instantly with the new saddle he actually wanted to go forward and started to move much better, it truly was the best thing I have ever done for him she has a very good website might be worth a look she has different fitters that cover most of the country.

There are other saddle fitters out there that are really aware of horses which may need a wider saddle and many of them make saddles for the wider more difficult to fit, sbloom who posts on here is one of them and she will often give advice on here about saddle fitting.
 
The problem with saddle fitters is that you need to weed out the ones who actually care, and the ones who are salesmen/women. I'm no expert but I have a good idea of what fits well and what doesn't and why, so I know what questions to ask and what to point out to the fitter. If you have absolutely no idea about saddles then it's going to be very easy for you to be taken advantage of. Do lots of research!

Secondly I'd be wary of any physio who claims to have the horse 'fixed' and 'out of pain' after just one session - they have no idea how the horse is feeling or what's going on unless they have x-ray vision.

Horses are stressful sometimes! I went through a similar period to you where I couldn't for the life of me find a saddle that 1) I liked and 2) Actually fit.
 
I've had similar issues and actually had a Lavinia Mitchell fitter out last night. However, I found all the ones I tried really uncomfortable! The seats felt really hard abs I felt I was perched miles off his back! Was yours comfortable from the get go? Haven't ordered the saddle yet, but I'm worried it'll be too uncomfortable for me.
 
I can join this club annoyingly. I have 4 saddles sat upstairs that need to be sold.

I am currently trialling a WOW saddle and my mare seems a lot happier in it. Fingers crossed this one works out.
 
Saddle fitting seems to be a bit of a minefield. I decided to go with a fitter who stocks a wide variety of makes for the little cob to avoid anyone who was trying to sell 'their' brand. She had previously fitted my son's horse and re-flocked old cob's saddle so we knew her already. She only stocks new saddles so is not a cheap option, but can re-flock and adjust on site if needed to get the best fit so there is excellent follow-up care and I think that in the long term it works out as good value for money. I was slightly vague about what I wanted so she turned up with around 20 saddles to try. There was no pressure to buy the most expensive - in the end we quickly narrowed it down to an Equipe and a Black Country and she advised that the Black Country was best so that is what I bought. Sadly I'm not able to ride now but the little cob and his rider seems to find the saddle comfortable, though a little tight at the moment as the pony is (temporarily) on the porky side!
 
Ponygirl777 said:
I've had similar issues and actually had a Lavinia Mitchell fitter out last night. However, I found all the ones I tried really uncomfortable! The seats felt really hard abs I felt I was perched miles off his back! Was yours comfortable from the get go? Haven't ordered the saddle yet, but I'm worried it'll be too uncomfortable for me.
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my saddle is the most comfortable saddle I have ever ridden in all her saddles have a double seat so they should be really comfortable, I have a dressage saddles of hers and a gp and although the gp is old its still really comfortable to ride in, with the shims it can feel a bit different but you do get used to it.


what saddle did you try of hers?
 
That's what's confused me - I've ridden in other LMs before and they were soooo comfy. I tried the WBP GP and a couple of standard panel VSDs. I'm hoping they're maybe needing to bed in a bit!
 
SEL said:
I can join this club annoyingly. I have 4 saddles sat upstairs that need to be sold.

I am currently trialling a WOW saddle and my mare seems a lot happier in it. Fingers crossed this one works out.
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My Draft mare went through 4 saddles in 5 years, then we decided on a Solution saddle and she was happier than she had ever been.
 
Oh dear OP, that's a shame for both horses.

Not all atrophy is related to saddle fit, it is very easy to blame the saddle but muscular changes of the topline can be caused by a great number of things including lameness, ulcers, way of going, kissing spine amongst others.

I would get the ID checked over by the vet just to be on the safe side as if there is an underlying problem you may end up wasting money on other saddles that won't make a difference. If you get the all clear then your saddle search can commence with peace of mind.

Personally I think it's highly unprofessional for saddle fitter #2 to slate saddle fitter #1 and that would put me off using them. You can give a professional opinion without being derogatory about other professionals

I'm sorry to hear about your connie x
 
Pearlsasinger said:
My Draft mare went through 4 saddles in 5 years, then we decided on a Solution saddle and she was happier than she had ever been.
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I recently purchased a 2nd hand jump solution saddle. I am very pleased with it and the horse goes well - I will use it for 6 months or so and if all is still going well I will buy a dressage to go with it

How long have you had yours pearlsasinger?
 
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Wheels said:
Oh dear OP, that's a shame for both horses.

Not all atrophy is related to saddle fit, it is very easy to blame the saddle but muscular changes of the topline can be caused by a great number of things including lameness, ulcers, way of going, kissing spine amongst others.

I would get the ID checked over by the vet just to be on the safe side as if there is an underlying problem you may end up wasting money on other saddles that won't make a difference. If you get the all clear then your saddle search can commence with peace of mind.

Personally I think it's highly unprofessional for saddle fitter #2 to slate saddle fitter #1 and that would put me off using them. You can give a professional opinion without being derogatory about other professionals

I'm sorry to hear about your connie x
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Interesting! I would say his whole topline has changed not just wither area and although lots of people have remarked how well he looks I personally don't think he looks that great. Plus he has always been reluctant to work in an outline, prefers to lean, is stiff on bends and has a tendency to work on the forehand - he is basically very hard work to school and although he's improved a little over the years he's still hasn't progressed as much in his schooling as I hoped. Instructor thinks its mainly down to his conformation (short thick neck big shoulders short back etc but I've always wondered if there is something else going on. He doesn't appear lame and I don't think he has ulcers (the girthiness stopped as soon as I stopped using the dressage saddle) but he may well have a back issue...

Thanks I will look into this!
 
Wheels said:
I recently purchased a 2nd hand jump solution saddle. I am very pleased with it and the horse goes well - I will use it for 6 months or so and if all is still going well I will buy a dressage to go with it

How long have you had yours pearlsasinger?
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Would you please keep us updated about the Solution Saddle, I'm very interested in them x
 
IMV a good saddle fitter seeing a horse slipping the saddle to one side and with visible atrophy ought to advise that a vet examines the horse .
It’s terrible if they have not the most common cause of saddles consistently moving to one side is hock trouble .
 
OldieButGoodie said:
Interesting! I would say his whole topline has changed not just wither area and although lots of people have remarked how well he looks I personally don't think he looks that great. Plus he has always been reluctant to work in an outline, prefers to lean, is stiff on bends and has a tendency to work on the forehand - he is basically very hard work to school and although he's improved a little over the years he's still hasn't progressed as much in his schooling as I hoped. Instructor thinks its mainly down to his conformation (short thick neck big shoulders short back etc but I've always wondered if there is something else going on. He doesn't appear lame and I don't think he has ulcers (the girthiness stopped as soon as I stopped using the dressage saddle) but he may well have a back issue...

Thanks I will look into this!
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The fact that his whole top line is affected would raise my suspicions even further - couple with the saddle slip you mentioned earlier which is often attributed to hind limb lameness. You could have a bilateral lameness going on or something very subtle that will take a well trained eye to see.

Have you watched the equitopia series on subtle lameness? Might be worth a watch
 
Goldenstar said:
IMV a good saddle fitter seeing a horse slipping the saddle to one side and with visible atrophy ought to advise that a vet examines the horse .
It’s terrible if they have not the most common cause of saddles consistently moving to one side is hock trouble .
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Agree with this, I'm surprised that you've had 2 fitters and neither referred to a vet in these circumstances
 
Wheels said:
The fact that his whole top line is affected would raise my suspicions even further - couple with the saddle slip you mentioned earlier which is often attributed to hind limb lameness. You could have a bilateral lameness going on or something very subtle that will take a well trained eye to see.

Have you watched the equitopia series on subtle lameness? Might be worth a watch
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I have watched it - it is both fascinating and scary! It also illustrates how blimmin hard it is to spot lameness. I've contacted the physio (who works with my vet practice) to see if she can assess him and then talk to the vet - as she did with my other horse. He's coming next week anyway to xray my connie's back so if I can I will combine the two visits or book a separate appointment.

Saddler #1 was one of the people who remarked how well the IDx was looking... In comparison Saddler #2 did not say he looked good - she said straight away she thought it wasn't weight loss but muscle atrophy. He also was very reluctant to raise his back when she asked him to.

Horses. Such a worry!
 
I had a very well known and respected saddler insist that the saddle she had out on my mare fitted her. When I rode in it she kept stretching her neck down and it just reminded me of when my dodgy shoulder is playing up. They wouldn't let me have it on trial, it was expensive and not adjustable so I walked away having just paid a visit fee.

Completely different feel with the WOW saddle plus she's let me have it on trial too. I'm sure the other one fitted perfectly from a theoretical point of view - but my horse didn't like it!!

I watched a lot of you tube videos to try and work out what I should / shouldn't be looking for in a saddle fit so at least I had the confidence to say I didn't think a saddle was working.
 
OldieButGoodie said:
Interesting! I would say his whole topline has changed not just wither area and although lots of people have remarked how well he looks I personally don't think he looks that great. Plus he has always been reluctant to work in an outline, prefers to lean, is stiff on bends and has a tendency to work on the forehand - he is basically very hard work to school and although he's improved a little over the years he's still hasn't progressed as much in his schooling as I hoped. Instructor thinks its mainly down to his conformation (short thick neck big shoulders short back etc but I've always wondered if there is something else going on. He doesn't appear lame and I don't think he has ulcers (the girthiness stopped as soon as I stopped using the dressage saddle) but he may well have a back issue...

Thanks I will look into this!
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Some horses don't get on with dressage girths I had mine made with long girth straps as one of my horses just doesn't go as well in a short girth, your horse really sounds like a saddle issue have a look on the LM site and have a look which fitter covers your area and maybe give them a call.
 
QUOTE=Wheels;13812369]The fact that his whole top line is affected would raise my suspicions even further - couple with the saddle slip you mentioned earlier which is often attributed to hind limb lameness. You could have a bilateral lameness going on or something very subtle that will take a well trained eye to see.

Have you watched the equitopia series on subtle lameness? Might be worth a watch[/QUOTE]


Wow! Just watched the Equitopia video you recommend (and subsequently signed up to Equitopia). Very sobering stuff, and very relevant to my boy unfortunately 😟. I did have a niggling worry that, despite vet/dentist/physio/chiro/saddler/bodywork etc, there was an underlying problem, so that's my next port of call.

This is going to be costly! 😧
 
Ponygirl777 said:
I've had similar issues and actually had a Lavinia Mitchell fitter out last night. However, I found all the ones I tried really uncomfortable! The seats felt really hard abs I felt I was perched miles off his back! Was yours comfortable from the get go? Haven't ordered the saddle yet, but I'm worried it'll be too uncomfortable for me.
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Mine is really comfortable however I did feel further off his back than with a traditionally fitted saddle. I got used to this and don't notice. I also found it much wider than I'm used to as I'm tight through the hips but a narrow twist doesn't leave much gullet room for the horse.

Going back to the original question. Does saddle fitter#1 only fit these saddles? If a fitter only fits one brand and that brand doesn't suit your horse, then they don't have alternatives to offer you and not all will say that this is not going to work. Just because the brand you wanted usually fits your type of horse, doesn't mean it will work in your case.

Lastly may be worth looking at the Sue Dyson research on saddles - particularly saddle slip being caused by hind limb lameness. http://www.saddleresearchtrust.com/documents/Conference 2014 Sue Dyson Abstracts.pdf
 
SpringArising said:
The problem with saddle fitters is that you need to weed out the ones who actually care, and the ones who are salesmen/women. I'm no expert but I have a good idea of what fits well and what doesn't and why, so I know what questions to ask and what to point out to the fitter. If you have absolutely no idea about saddles then it's going to be very easy for you to be taken advantage of. Do lots of research!

Secondly I'd be wary of any physio who claims to have the horse 'fixed' and 'out of pain' after just one session - they have no idea how the horse is feeling or what's going on unless they have x-ray vision.

Horses are stressful sometimes! I went through a similar period to you where I couldn't for the life of me find a saddle that 1) I liked and 2) Actually fit.
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I know this is an old post but jumping on through frustration -so true-the saddle fitters I find tend to critisize all the others and not sure they are really interested in helping and have been rubbish at communicating and actually not always very proficient. Not usually prone to keyboard warrior ranting but utterly disappointed in prima donna saddle fitters who are not secure in their knowledge and dont bother to really help the client
 
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