Saddles won't fit - underlying issues?

pootleperkin

pootleperkin

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Ok, so here is the dilemma......

My big, 6 year old coloured is proving very difficult to fit a saddle to. I use a highly recommeded saddler, who I have a good relationship with. She sold me a Kent and Masters GPD saddle back in May 2011 that everyone seemed happy with as Sky's first saddle.

Trouble was, about 4 - 5 months later, it was clear the saddle didn't fit. She is super broad, does have a wither and the twist from her movement is huge, so a saddle that looks right on her stationary can lift at the back when she moves. The K&M was bouncing up and down at the back, so obviously wasn't any good - I had my trainer point this out to me, so rang saddler.

Since then we have tried lots of different saddles which are left with me to try for a period. Sky is very reactive, so spooks a lot and is pretty wiggly under saddle -we have a chicken and egg situation as I need a saddle to get consistent work into her to improve her way of going, but any saddle that does have a chance of fitting her would be inclined to move with all of the wiggling going on underneath it, if you know what I mean!

We are now at the stage where saddler thinks there is something up with the horse to make the saddles slip so much. Had her back checked by a good osteo and she was stiff down the right side, manipulated, now seems fine. She is growing less and less happy with being saddled. I am now refusing to ride in the one we have left for us, a K&M dutch, as it just doesn't look or feel right and also slips, and I feel that the problems have been caused by the saddles not being right. The horse was really easy to back and has never been a problem. Saddler thinks there may be an underlying problem, such as undiagnosed lameness that is causing tension and back pain, leading to a hard back and saddle slippage, as she can't understand why she can't find a saddle to fit. Horse is happy out in the field and moves well.

Video of her doing an intro test here so you can have a look at how she goes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX9CK1qDavo&feature=share&list=UUe1z5pVY0OKDqERhr281J4Q

That was taken when in saddle before last, which slipped once she was working hard and girth had to be done up to a ridiculous level - this is the problem we have with them all - that and they all seems to lift at the back. It was her first time out under saddle, hence all the extreme spookiness!

So I have thought about treeless Solutions saddles, Saddler has suggested WOW.....I originally gave her a smallish budget, as didn't want to have to keep buying expensive new saddles if she changed as she grew....... I don't mind (well, I do!) going up in budget if necessary, but would have to be right.

I can get vet to give her a good going over, to check any other issues as saddler suggests. I can change saddler, but would then have a new K&M to get rid of, plus she is well thought of as I said, so I have no reason to doubt her skill.

Any ideas as to how to proceed? So many options....
 
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I'm having huge saddle issues with my chap, horrible muscle atrophy and high withers so nothing fits. I'm currently saving up for a solutions saddle. I had a ride in one a few days ago and loved it my horse never went better! Going to take a long time to save enough money as I'm on minimum wage but think it will be worth it in the end.

They do sell on ebay aswell second hand for about half the price and you can get ex display models a lot cheaper too. The website says you can also pay monthly for saddle.

If you're really not keen on that route the new wintecs with built in prolites claim to fit any horse (I'm a bit skeptical) but might be worth a look and abput half the price of solutions.
 
How is the saddler testing the fit of the saddles when she brings new ones for you to try? As she should be girthing them up (no numnah) and walking the horse up and down in front of you so you can see how the saddle sits/moves on your horses back, and also walking the horse in a small-ish (10m) circle on hard ground in front of you (And then you in front of her) so that you can again see how the saddle responds to when you horse bends through the body. I also lunge my horse in a new saddle, or if it has been adjusted, in front of the saddler, with no numnah on, so that again we can check fit and movement.

Have you tried thorowgood cob saddles? I have just got one for my 4yr old who I had major saddle fit issues with as everything bounced up and down on his back. Hes incredibly flat backed with a wide wither. The thorowgood fits him perfectly. unfortunatley its not my first choice of saddle but at the moment i'm happy i have something that fits him.

i had him in a Wow (that I had from my previous horse and had adjusted to him) but there was again too much movement behind with it and he hated the air as hes very sensitive in his back (which it sounds like your horse is too)

Another thing to look at would be a rear riser on a saddle - if you can get one that fits in every other way? I have a thermatex saddle fit pad which is brilliant as you can put shims in it in the front or the back so it makes the fit of the saddle really correct.

http://www.thermatex.co.uk/thermatex/Thermatex_Saddle_Fitters_Pad.html

Finally, I would look at the girthing - I would think you want a more 'y' girthing system that can be adjusted and maybe look at the h-girth by Wow?

http://www.fteltd.co.uk/wow/wowaccessories.htm

Different shaped girths suit different shaped horses and all horses have different girth grooves - so take a look at what girth you use aswell and try some different ones.
 
you could get a wow fitter and ask what you need - then look for parts on ebay - which is what i did - i got mine all in for £850 - but had to buy panels brand new at £400 as i needed specific ones. - you can get cheaper
 
I have exactly the same problem. huge shoulders, flat short back. I have a Barnsby Haflinger saddle fitted and now, a few months later after a lot of leaping around I knew something wasn't right so I have had a back person out who found a sore spot under back of saddle on right side. The saddle can be lifted at the back and with me bobbing around on top it has been banging around too much.. It also keeps slipping to the right.
My horse is 5, quite sharp and will find any opportunity to be naughty so I really want to keep her comfortable

Saddler is coming Tues, I don't know what she is going to do. I have been lunging her and have noticed that probably due to how wide she is and how short her back is her whole 'barrel' rolls as she trots so, just like you we have this movement to incorporate into geting the saddle to fit.
My back lady did say that as my saddle has the webbbing in place already to fix balancing girth straps onto it may be an idea.

Oh to have a 'normal' shaped horse with some withers (and a sensible brain).
I have just looked at your video and your horse looks very similar to min in the fact that her chest is so wide too with a large space between her front legs.
 
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I keep recommending Heather Moffett's saddles, but then, I am very pleased with mine so why not? :p I bought mine secondhand, but Heather herself gives out lots of advice via her website & facebook page, and I believe she's very easy to deal with, as are her repesentatives, over the phone, even if you are looking to buy secondhand so not directly from her. Perhaps a saddle that can simply move with the horse would help? I don't have any experience with Solution saddles though or WOW, had a variety of treed saddles in the past & had heard of the HM ones before, happened that a friend had one, borrowed it for a week & liked it, so tracked down a second hand one & now me & pony are very happy :) You can hire them for a week to try though, which I think is good, and I believe the new FlexEE will be on sale again soon which is about £400? Possibly at least worth an email/phone call.
 
Your horse doesnt sound too different to mine. My mare is broad, somewhat uphill and has big shoulders and big movement. My saddler tried about 20 saddles on her (all m/w or w tree) and discarded all but six, and I tried each of those, one of which was a K&M which looked fine until it came to riding, when it slid around from left to right and back again. Best one by miles was a black country and so she ordered a bespoke one from them on the same tree (eloquence) , 18 inches, with extra gusset under the cantle so she could put extra flock there until my mare had bulked up a bit more behind, and moveable blocks. I have had to have it adjusted and reflocked since but its fine (mare has bulked up behind now!). It came in 10 days and was about £1500 quid (its a dressage saddle). I have the front girth strap as a point strap and the back one is anchored in a Y so there are 3 points holding to the girth, and the extra gusset and flocking means its doesnt tip or slide back - it sounds to me like you need something like this or a rear riser to solve the bouncing up and down at the back problem, as well as something to address the rotation. You could also try a breastplate. The saddler must watch you ride - the saddle may be completely still until the horse moves, but if it slips around when the horse moves, its no good for you.
 
You've had some good replies already. Just wanted to add that just because the saddler can't get the saddle to fit, it doesn't mean there is an underlying issue. Your horse looks to move well in the video apart from the saddle flapping up and down on his back! As others have said - some sort of pad maybe a good solution. Prolites are really good - i have one where you can put different inserts in to suit the problem.

Also, just a question (which may sound stupid), but when the saddler fits the saddle, do they actually change the flocking to make sure it fits your horse rather than just giving you the saddle as is? I had one very reputable saddler that never did anything to any new saddle i bought, so i thought that was the done thing, until i changed to a much better saddler who fits a new saddle but them makes sure its perfection by adjusting the flocking.
 
To put it bluntly...this sounds like a saddler who is incapable of fitting a saddle to anything other than a perfect horse.
My first thoughts are the saddle is too low at the front leaving the back 'loose'...sounds a strange description I know. The central part of the saddle..the twist..ideally is the same area from which the girth falls. Your weight should be placed over this point.
The vid suggests that the weight distribution is at the front. When girth up, can you slide the flat of your hand down your horses side under the points area ? If you cannot, then the saddle is TOO tight here and will slip !!! It also means it is probably the wronmg shape tree for your horse.

Get a really professional fitter to look at you and your horse, preferably somebody who has been around for a long time and not recently qualified. Also buy SECONDHAND.

Generally your horse is moving awkwardly because none of the muscles under the saddle area can flex.......basically he is in a very tight & uncomfortable corset.
 
Few options:

Firstly, you could get another saddler out to check the fit.
Secondly, you could get a thermal imaging scan done of the saddle fit - this can be very useful, and show you what's going underneath the saddle when you are riding.
Thirdly, try something totally different - as you have suggested, there are the treeless solutions saddles. I am currently waiting for an "All Saddle Solutions" saddle to be made for my horse. M2M saddle for approx £1300; at least I know it will fit my horse!
 
Thanks for all the replies.

What is interesting is than none of you have said anything about the horse not being right/lame and that causing saddles not to fit, as my saddler keeps suggesting. With that in mind, Supanova, I also feel like we just haven't had the right saddle - I'm sure she's ok - she just doesn't look like a sore horse. She did have some stiffness on the right rein, but that seems sorted by the osteo. Sore horses don't roll like maniacs then literally jump up and corkscrew buck down the field then calmly return to grazing again (though I admit that all of that jumping and twisting might put something out occasionally!) She has fab pace (when you get her to concentrate!) and is very athletic.

Tempi - the saddler does everything as you said, apart from instead of lunging, I ride in it. This is where some of the saddler worrys come in, because at home I just have the field to ride in, which is wet and slippery and it makes her slip/trip, so the saddler seems to think this points to an underlying problem - in my mind, she is just finding it difficukt on uneven going, as she hates working in the field. I really need something that supports me too, because she is so wide and I need a saddle that I feel I can get my leg on in, as otherwise I feel like a short-legged pea on drum, which I am not!

I'm pretty sure that we did try a Thorowgood cob, we also had a GFS (which I liked, the one in the video) but when we weorked her hard, it still moved; in fact that one slipped forward during a particularly arduous lesson! The saddler felt that that could be due to her being sore in her back, stiffening and therefore not letting the saddle sit where it should?

The saddler does fit WOWs, so I might be able to try on through her. She also says she is not averse to a properly padded treeless, though she would suggest having one for 8 - 10 weeks and making sure that the horse is ok after that time and checked by a physio to make sure that there has been no soreness in the seat bone and stirup bar area, as apparently some new pressure test research has said that there may be problems there.

The y girths look interesting - we have been using the front and very rear straps on the saddles, some of them (K&M) have the last strap coming in at an angle from right at the back of the saddle and shims might do it to. It is so frustrating trying a saddle on her that fits perfectly on her back at halt, then lifts about 5 cm in the air and then waddles from side to side when she walks off!

Dotty - she is so broad! My legs really do feel like stumps!

Sol, I think we have a Heather Moffatt fitter just up the road.....might have a word. It's silly isn't, but I have come a long way down the road with this saddler, so don't want to be 'disloyal' - it took me ages to find someone who a) would come out to me and b) really did seem to know what they were doing. It's annoying that we maybe haven't found the right saddle because of limited stock - that's not that she doesn't have a lot of saddles, but I already cut it down by having an original budget of £700 ish and preferring something dressagey...... Also, she will take the original K&M back if I get another from her, so I won't have the trouble of trying to get most of my £700 on that back via ebay, where I'll lucky to make a couple of hundred for it I guess!

IMR - we were supposed to be trying a Black Country (I have a Wexford at the mo' for my other horse and really rate it) but don't think it happened. Your horse sounds exactly like Sky (did you watch my vid?) so that might be an option. Only thing is, if they make it and it doesn't fit...what then?

It's all so annoying as I must have spent a few hundred quid on call out fees now.....it looks as if upping my budget is the only way I'm going to find a solution.
 
Well if the saddle's not fitting, then you need to do something - sometimes that can involve taking your business elsewhere. I really would strongly encourage you to get the fit of it checked, the TI should cost approx £40, if you have someone in your area that does it.

If you can get the whole horse done, even better, as it then may show up something else, as per the saddler thinking there is something wrong.

Do you have anyone else in your area that has a stash of cheapo second hand GP's? If so, get them out and see if anything is suitable.
 
wytsend said:
To put it bluntly...this sounds like a saddler who is incapable of fitting a saddle to anything other than a perfect horse.
My first thoughts are the saddle is too low at the front leaving the back 'loose'...sounds a strange description I know. The central part of the saddle..the twist..ideally is the same area from which the girth falls. Your weight should be placed over this point.
The vid suggests that the weight distribution is at the front. When girth up, can you slide the flat of your hand down your horses side under the points area ? If you cannot, then the saddle is TOO tight here and will slip !!! It also means it is probably the wronmg shape tree for your horse.

Get a really professional fitter to look at you and your horse, preferably somebody who has been around for a long time and not recently qualified. Also buy SECONDHAND.

Generally your horse is moving awkwardly because none of the muscles under the saddle area can flex.......basically he is in a very tight & uncomfortable corset.
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I guess I should make it clear that I don't have a saddle per se at the minute......the K&M hasn't been used for ages. I am in the process of trying saddles that she leaves for me and the one I have at the minute, I won't ride in, as it isn't right for the horse or me, so I'm not riding while I wait for her to come back. It was one the saddler had taken a while to get hold of as from her template and shape, she felt it would be a good tree fit.

This saddler isn't newly qualified and is very experienced - was highly recommended on here, which is why I asked her to come. I would prefer to buy secondhand as that it was my original budget would dictate, but I ended up with a new one as it was the same budget as secondhand - I didn't really have a preference, so long as it fitted.

When I ride her on any of the saddles I have tried, I usually feel like I'm thrown backwards, so have to tip forward a bit to compensate. It always feels difficult to get my leg underneath me - not something I usually have a problem with. Ironically, again the saddle in the video was the one that I felt allowed me to balance the best.

In all of the saddles we have considered, we could always run the hand under the points and down the shoulder - one saddler I knew described the feeling as like slipping a knife through butter as you flat hand came under the points and down, so the trees do seem open enough.

I agree with you about the corset - I have had to do every saddle up with a very tight girth - not nice.

I think I will give the saddler one more chance with a bigger budget, then if we aren't sorted, I'll have to move on. Crossing fingers that she will take the K&M back for me and sell it herself if we can't get sorted. I guess in the meantime there is nothing wrong with getting the local treeless fitter out (apart from another call out fee :( ) to see how we both feel in one of them, and maybe the Heather Moffatt fitter too.

Might hire the local indoor to do so, then at least I will be able to ride properly in them rather than having a spooky horse sliding around in wet field!
 
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You can hire solutions saddles for a couple of weeks - why not try this to see how you get on with it? May give you a better idea if its a saddle issue, or pony issue?
 
Just a thought as I had the exact same problems with my pony! He's a welsh cob so definitely broad with big shoulders, he loves to wiggle about and has quite powerful movement from his shoulders.

He was fitted with a m2m saddle at the beginning of last year, all fine until it had to be stuffed. Nothing looked out of the ordinary with it and it was fine to begin with but started to get a bit wobbly but as he is a wiggly, spooky little thing, I wasn't sure how much was him. I got another saddler out to get it checked over and it turns out it has been stuffed all incorrectly for him. So we got it restuffed by this different saddler and fingers crossed, it seems to be much better and like a normal saddle again!

The problems sounds identical to yours with the saddle not sitting quite right on his back and the back part of it wobbling loose when I rode. The saddler removed some (wrongly put it!) stuffing from the back and evened it out, she put more into the side against his shoulders. She said that the lack of stuffing down his shoulders was caused the saddle to swing like it was. I hope this helps, it probably isn't this but it's a thought :)
 
I think the horse looks very hollow and uncomfortable in the saddle, also I wondered whether horse might have mild stringhalt at first so saddler might have a point.

Having said that I would be really unhappy if saddler couldn't find a solution. A different saddler ight be able to provide a greater range of saddles.

We are having a saddle built at the moment by Ideal which is designed for a horse with a very short back and massive shoulder.
 
My only thought is that however good a rep current saddler has/how good she is if she is struggling it certainly wouldn't do any harm to get a second opinion on what they might think is going on. :)
 
siennamum said:
I think the horse looks very hollow and uncomfortable in the saddle, also I wondered whether horse might have mild stringhalt at first so saddler might have a point.

Having said that I would be really unhappy if saddler couldn't find a solution. A different saddler ight be able to provide a greater range of saddles.

We are having a saddle built at the moment by Ideal which is designed for a horse with a very short back and massive shoulder.
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You really think that she looks like she has stringhalt? Eeek, this is my very slowly brought on, nothing done with her as yet, 6 year old! I don't think stringhalt is even a consideration......in the vid this was her first show under saddle and second time in an indoor school (with what is obviously not a good saddle for her) so she didn't really relax and poked aorund like a giraffe, hence the up and down. When she worked in the school in lessons last year (with the original saddle) she softened a lot more over her back and didn't have so much up and down movement which comes, pretty much, from her being tense and spooky, so not working. Once the tension has gone in her her paces come much longer and under her body, though it is always difficult to keep her attention, partiucularly as schooling has been so inconsistent because of saddle troubles.

TBH, people have always commented on her fab paces when loose, a little bit of vid here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYBvtQP7qao&feature=share&list=UUe1z5pVY0OKDqERhr281J4Q

I guess this shows a marked difference between when ridden and no saddle in terms of paces.
 
Britestar and Chatty, I'll have a read - cheers

Ooh, maybe one thing to note - she isn't shod behind, mostly because she has never done much road work (see above re: can't find a saddle!). Also because she's quite handy with her backend around Gully!
 
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chattygoneon3 said:
Hi,I agree with your saddler and think it would be worth getting your vet to have a look.Recent research by Sue Dyson at AHT suggests saddle slip is commonly caused by hind limb lameness .See link http://www.saddleresearchgroup.co.uk/newras2012.htm Hope this helps.
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This is the brief report at the link:

"We have observed that the saddle slips consistently to one side on some horses. The reasons include a crooked rider, an ill-fitting saddle, asymmetry in the shape of the horse’s back and lameness. We are currently performing a prospective study, in collaboration with the Saddle Research Trust, to try to understand this problem better. Preliminary observations indicate that lameness may be the most important factor."

Interesting, but whatever she wears doesn't slip to one side only....it can be either...mostly depending on which way she spooks and so chucks my weight to!

PS - I should say that I am quite open to getting the vet out to do a lameness workup if it is warranted, and have told saddler this too. What do we think? At end of day, just want everything right for her. Chatty has one vote to get vet.
 
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My friend went through all what you have said. The saddle which she ended up with has a much wider gullet than the others. The saddle has never moved, rocked or slid. The horse in question is also very broad.
 
cruzing said:
My friend went through all what you have said. The saddle which she ended up with has a much wider gullet than the others. The saddle has never moved, rocked or slid. The horse in question is also very broad.
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I've seen this work on a couple of broad horses who seemed to slip most saddles. A wider gullet seemed to help stabalise the saddle. The one's I knew weren't big moving at all though so not sure how similar this would be.
 
OH and I have decided we'll get a lamness workup done next week, then we'll know one way or the other what the main problem is. Fingers crossed (in some regards) that she is just difficult to fit a saddle to.
 
pootleperkin said:
Thanks for all the replies.
IMR - we were supposed to be trying a Black Country (I have a Wexford at the mo' for my other horse and really rate it) but don't think it happened. Your horse sounds exactly like Sky (did you watch my vid?) so that might be an option. Only thing is, if they make it and it doesn't fit...what then?

It's all so annoying as I must have spent a few hundred quid on call out fees now.....it looks as if upping my budget is the only way I'm going to find a solution.
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Have looked at vid now (utube doesnt work at work). She doesn't look unsound to me, just like the saddle is bobbing about esp at the back. She is broader and more barrel like than mine, but see if you can get the saddler to bring an eloquence tree black country and give it a try, hopefully it won't move! I'm pretty sure that if mine hadnt fitted they would have adjusted it until it had fwiw.
 
Have a ook on the Strada web site and give Ilga a call. She's had great results with hard to fit horses and always always fits the saddle to the horse.
Remember also that at 6 years old your horse may still change shape, particularly with ongoing work.
Just want to say well done for putting your horse first and not just settling for what your saddler says. I had a good relationship with a saddler when I had a warmblood who was easy to fit.However when I bought a PRE with a short back his solutions weren't all that great. I moved to Ilga and ride in a Strada for 2 years until he outgrew that (big shoulders and big movement). I now have a Prestige D1 which is simply amazing and again have a great fitter). I am sure you will get there in the end.
PS, i note you are in the North West. Why don't you have a chat with Tori Peters (dressage rider) and ask her what saddler she uses. May be helpful to get another opinion
 
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