Sale Price

[Whoopit]

What determines sale price of young stock? Aside from the obvious of age, experience, competition wins etc

Is it predominantly sire or a combination of sire and dam? Or does it depend what people are asking for horse i.e the more money it’s worth then look at both?

Mine is a 2018 Air Jordan Alpha Z. He has a full brother who was bought for more as a foal than I paid for mine as a 2.5yr old. I can only imagine it’s looks as the brother is much more striking to look at - chestnut with four white stockings whereas mine is brown and quite unremarkable to look at!

They have 4-5yr old relations with same sire who are selling for a lot of money - some have lines I’ve heard of, like a Heartbreaker who is for sale well into five figures, and some I haven’t like Quinar Z.
Mine has dressage on his dams side so difficult to compare him to a horse with two showjumper lines!

I can’t afford any of them, although would love the full brother if he cropped up and I could live in my car to buy him, but wondered what the deciding factor is or is it a case of folk pick a figure and see who pays it?!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

My gelding has World class bloodlines. World champions on both sides of his pedigree, half siblings that have done well in hand and under saddle. All great, only his conformation isn't perfect as he has a slight bench knee on one leg. That is all it took to drop his price.

With youngsters it is all 'potential' so having good conformation, athleticism and a good, trainable temperament (OK some really talented horses are quirky, but they still need to be trainable enough to do the job) is what can hopefully up the odds of them fulfilling that potential.

 

[TheMule]

Bloodlines (direct damline being the most important), fashionable sires help of course but you really need the dam to have performed, or the grandma, or their offspring. People think it's the damsire that matters but that's not what a good damline means.
Then quality and type- conformation, straightness, movement and presence. Loose jump if it's 2/3yrs and then how it looks under saddle. You can pay a lot more for potential but of course that doesn’t always translate into performance so value can drop very quickly. Foals are generally more expensive than 2 yr olds as they look better and it's more appealing age to purchase at!

 

[Whoopit]

My gelding has World class bloodlines. World champions on both sides of his pedigree, half siblings that have done well in hand and under saddle. All great, only his conformation isn't perfect as he has a slight bench knee on one leg. That is all it took to drop his price.

With youngsters it is all 'potential' so having good conformation, athleticism and a good, trainable temperament (OK some really talented horses are quirky, but they still need to be trainable enough to do the job) is what can hopefully up the odds of them fulfilling that potential.

So his price lowered by the confirmation - would the same imperfection on a horse with a different dam (or sire) maintain the same price? So if he’s worth £10k with his dodgy knee and he’s by, I don’t know, Explosion X x Heartbreaker, would he still be £10k or £8k if he was Explosion X x a lesser ranked stallion?

 

[Whoopit]

Bloodlines (direct damline being the most important), fashionable sires help of course but you really need the dam to have performed, or the grandma, or their offspring. People think it's the damsire that matters but that's not what a good damline means.
Then quality and type- conformation, straightness, movement and presence. Loose jump if it's 2/3yrs and then how it looks under saddle. You can pay a lot more for potential but of course that doesn’t always translate into performance so value can drop very quickly. Foals are generally more expensive than 2 yr olds as they look better and it's more appealing age to purchase at!

Aaaah ok. So damsire is Ferro and her dams sire is Rubenstein. So that ultimately is “where the money is”? That’s what you’d research if you were looking for beeeding stock etc?

I’m just being nosy on the slightest off-chance when he’s a 4yr old and I’m incapable of sitting to the trot that he isn’t for me! ?

 

[TheMule]

Aaaah ok. So damsire is Ferro and her dams sire is Rubenstein. So that ultimately is “where the money is”? That’s what you’d research if you were looking for beeeding stock etc?

I’m just being nosy on the slightest off-chance when he’s a 4yr old and I’m incapable of sitting to the trot that he isn’t for me! ?

No, that's what I mean- her dam being by Ferro and out a Rubenstein mare is a good indicator, but what did the dam do? What level did she compete at? What have her other offspring done? What did her dam do? What has she already produced? Horsetelex is very useful for finding this info
For example, I used a stallion on my mare who I consider to have one of the best damlines going, and it's got very little to do with the fact she's by Heartbreaker and out of a Carthago mare https://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1858016/escape-z

You can see the level the dam jumped to herself- 1.30m, not that amazing…..


But then look at what else she has produced

 

[Meowy Catkin]

So his price lowered by the confirmation - would the same imperfection on a horse with a different dam (or sire) maintain the same price? So if he’s worth £10k with his dodgy knee and he’s by, I don’t know, Explosion X x Heartbreaker, would he still be £10k or £8k if he was Explosion X x a lesser ranked stallion?

I think that a conformation fault such as a bench knee (although slight in this case) will put a lot of people off whatever the breeding.

 

[Whoopit]

No, that's what I mean- her dam being by Ferro and out a Rubenstein mare is a good indicator, but what did the dam do? What level did she compete at? What have her other offspring done? What did her dam do? What has she already produced? Horsetelex is very useful for finding this info
For example, I used a stallion on my mare who I consider to have one of the best damlines going, and it's got very little to do with the fact she's by Heartbreaker and out of a Carthago mare https://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1858016/escape-z

You can see the level the dam jumped to herself- 1.30m, not that amazing…..

View attachment 77973
But then look at what else she has produced

View attachment 77974

Hmmm, so UFO Van Overis is his dam and she hasn’t done anything and has one reasonable Eventing offspring ?

 

[chaps89]

Without wishing to thread jack (sorry op) @Meowy Catkin what is a bench knee please? Never herd that term before!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Without wishing to thread jack (sorry op) @Meowy Catkin what is a bench knee please? Never herd that term before!

Looking at the horse from the front, the knee looks rotated which makes the cannon look as though it doesn't line up under the forearm correctly. This diagram shows an extreme version but hopefully it explains it well.

 

[Whoopit]

Without wishing to thread jack (sorry op) @Meowy Catkin what is a bench knee please? Never herd that term before!

Oh don’t be sorry ? If you don’t ask you don’t know!

 

[chaps89]

Ah thankyou

 

[ihatework]

It’s a bit of a cocktail of reasons that set high priced horses apart from run of the mill ones.

As already alluded to bloodlines do play a part, but it isn’t the only thing. There are many famous stallions who all have many offspring - so having a Voltaire / heartbreaker / Gribadi ‘insert whatever big name stallion’ doesn’t really mean it’s a big money horse.

As the Mule said the dam line is so very important - not only their sire, but also what the mother line has done and/or produced for sport.

Then add in correct conformation.

A huge part of it is the ‘X’ factor which is difficult to describe. But it’s the presence of the horse, the way they hold themselves that you know they will find the job easy, their outlook and intelligence.

 

[sport horse]

The saying is 'follow the bottom line' of the pedigree. ie the dam, grand dam, great grand dam etc. Look for performance and possibly even more important the performance of their progeny. Then the sire. After that people will look at the horse itself and conformation, temperament and talent will all be assessed.