sarcoids on new horse and one with ringbone, help!!

[ponykiss69]

Hiya
Just bought a new horse to replace my 7 year old for competition as he has low ringbone, he is on 2 Danilon a day and is still lame at walk and trot..
Two things, when to say goodbye should I leave it till he is in real pain, or do it before he gets in pain, not a great descion either way erh??
My new horse has been with me a month and has sarcoids, she was vetted and bought from a breeder with a high profile stallion, but should this woman give me my money back? I have asked to swap for her other horse, its 2.5k more and I have not asked for my money back, but she is not being very helpful. Trading standards say I can ask, but I am happy to swap for her other horse, but she is being rather rude to me..
Anyone got any opnion on either of my disasters? LOL!!

 

[AmyMay]

Have answered you in Vets about the ringbone.

As for the sarcoids - why should you be given your money back? Surely you saw them when you looked at the horse, but went ahead with the purchase anyway??

 

[ThePony]

sorry to hear about your 7yo, can't offer advice I'm afraid as I'm fortunate not to have been in this situation myself.
Re your new horse, if the sarcoids weren't picked up at the vetting then although you can ask I don't think the seller is obliged to give you your money back or offer an exchange - unless you can prove the seller was aware the horse had sarcoids (though I think that would be pretty tricky if there was no sign of them for the vet to pick up). Although it's really bad luck it is just one of those things with horses - they can develop sarcoids at any time and I think there is some research that suggests if the horse is stressed or under the weather then this can make them develop - so a move of home and a new owner could make the horse stressed and so possibly reduce its immune response. I'd get your vet out and get the sarcoids treated. Sooner is def better for a good outcome.

 

[ponykiss69]

Hiya
No did not see sarcoids, horse had winter coat as is 3 years old, unbroken. I had her vetted by a vet she suggested as it was not in my area. When the winter coat fell off I noticed thehorse was poor, so started to feed up and then noticed occult sarcoid under coat in between legs. Vet says would have been there from before purchase (ONE MONTH IN)..If I had known, I would not have bought, from very well known stallion, small breeder...
ta

 

[galaxy]

I'd be more cross with the vet for not seeing them than the breeder....

How many and where are they? If they weren't picked up on the vetting then your insurance should pay for treatment.

 

[gummybear]

Im afraid to say I agree with amymay - if you had the horse vetted then surely the sarcoids were picked up at the time of vetting so you were aware that they were there and decided to continue with the purchase of the horse, so I would say that you have no right to expect the dealer to refund/swap the horse for another.

 

[AmyMay]

from very well known stallion,

Even the finest horses can get sarcoids.......

Speak to the vet who vetted the horse for you - you may be able to get some satisfaction from them, perhaps.

But get them treated, and I'm sure they'll be fine.

 

[Umbongo]

You could ask the owner but I don't think that she is inclined to give you any money back. Sarcoids is just one of those things that can happen to any horse, well bred or not. There is no evidence that suggests that sarcoids are genetic and passed down from the parents. Either the vet missed them or lied (which I do not think they would do), or he has developed them since being with you. Sarcoids can develop very quickly.

Agree that you could contact the vet and have a chat, but better to just get your vet out and get them treated straight away

 

[ThePony]

how can the vet be so sure that the sarcoid would have been there before purchase, and if it wasn't picked up on purchase by yourself or the vet how can the seller have been expected to know? My mare has several occult sarcoids that she is currently waiting for liverpool cream to treat. I knew she had one by her back leg as it is growing near her teats so no hair to hide it, but a couple more have only become apparent as she has lost her winter coat - I had no idea they were there until the last couple of weeks as they are hard to spot anyway and just about impossible to see with the coat over. Unless you go over a horse with (literally!) a fine tooth comb, then you can never know what is going on there. I would just be glad you have seen it so soon, be glad it isn't a nasty type and get the treatment going for it.

 

[ihatework]

Hiya
No did not see sarcoids, horse had winter coat as is 3 years old, unbroken. I had her vetted by a vet she suggested as it was not in my area. When the winter coat fell off I noticed thehorse was poor, so started to feed up and then noticed occult sarcoid under coat in between legs. Vet says would have been there from before purchase (ONE MONTH IN)..If I had known, I would not have bought, from very well known stallion, small breeder...
ta

I doubt the breeder is under any obligation to refund/exchange. To be fair they may not have even known they were there.
Your issue is with the vet that performed the vetting for you - they failed to identify and inform you of the presence of sarcoid (that is assume they were there at that point in time).
The sarcoids are unlikely to significantly affect your horse so I suggest you just get them treated under your insurance.

 

[ponykiss69]

I am saying well known stallion because I do not wish to mention the breeder.
MY Vet says they were there before purchase, I have had the horse for one month, when you buy a young horse you do so on good faith, breeders should rely on their reputations, she was bought for apurpose and now this may not be realised as these sarcoids are all over her and in areas that mean they could break and bleed.
Why should I deal with the sarcoids, she also was so poor I had her bloods done and there maybe worm damage. this horse has clearly not been looked after and 4k is allot of money to pay for a horse that is sold for a certain job and its breeding waived as excellant only to find that it has been shoddily looked after and is not as sold in advertisment.
I have spent 1k already on vets fees to clear up her mess, do you think that is a good breeder????

 

[ihatework]

You should deal with the sarcoids because she is your horse so your problem now.
No one forced you to hand over 4K, you made that decision of your own free will and accepted at that time you were buying a poor 3yo.
You may be annoyed, but that doesn't change the fact that you you will need to deal with the sarcoids at some point.
Given 'they are all over her' then I would be contacting the vet who did the vetting ....

 

[Umbongo]

You said that there was an occult sarcoid in between the legs? but now you say they are all over? Your vet cannot say that they were definitely there before purchase as they would not have any evidence to support this. I would give her vet a ring and see what they have to say about it. But it is something that you need to sort out as she is now in your care, not the breeder sorry

Did you go to see her in person to see that she was poor looking for £4000?

 

[ponykiss69]

Thats exactly the problem, I only realised how poor she was when her coat fell off and the full extent became apparent.
She is my horse and thanks for telling me its my responsibility as this is why the vet has been out 4 times in a week.
I am not exactly sure why I own a horse for a month and I have to deal with the problems from a breeder whom has breed and owned it for 3 years!
My vet is appalled by the actions of this breeder and no one forced me to hand over 4k, but you do so in good faith and you expect that the animal you are buying should be in a fair condition, otherwise I shoud have bought from pikies and been better off!
Occult sarcoids are the worst and spread over the skin, they are believd to have been there prior to purchase. I do not know of any other situation where the purchaser of something has to mop others laziness and incompetancy, but hey thanks!

 

[sackofbadgers]

My girl had horrible sarcoids when I got her. We tried the Liverpool cream and it did some of them but a few came back badly. She went to Potters Bar veterinary clinic and had 4 consecutive injections of a chemotherapy drug into the roots - that was 18 months ago and still clear (everything crossed) There was a little one they didn't treat and when it started growing I used a homeopathic cream and herbal feed supplement (Hilton Herbs stuff) It was non messy and very effective.

Hope this helps. Good luck

 

[AmyMay]

I am saying well known stallion because I do not wish to mention the breeder.
MY Vet says they were there before purchase, I have had the horse for one month, when you buy a young horse you do so on good faith, breeders should rely on their reputations, she was bought for apurpose and now this may not be realised as these sarcoids are all over her and in areas that mean they could break and bleed.
Why should I deal with the sarcoids, she also was so poor I had her bloods done and there maybe worm damage. this horse has clearly not been looked after and 4k is allot of money to pay for a horse that is sold for a certain job and its breeding waived as excellant only to find that it has been shoddily looked after and is not as sold in advertisment.
I have spent 1k already on vets fees to clear up her mess, do you think that is a good breeder????

Mmm, I'm sorry - I maybe being really dense here, so apols if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick. It doesn't matter who the breeder or the stallion was - any horse can get a sarcoid(s).

If the youngster was poor when you viewed and purchased it - why didn't you raise the issue then and there with the seller. Why did you pay a significant amount of money for something that you felt was may not have been up to the job you intended it for?

Does the veterinary report mention it's poor condition?

If the sarcoids are all over her - then I agree that the vet should have noted them in the report, but equally it's not beyond the realms of expectation that you should have noted them too.

If you have paid out £1k for the treatment of the sarcoids - wow, I'm gobsmacked. I've never heard of them costing that much to treat....

As for buying in good faith - yes we do to a certain extent. But we also buy(er) beware). However, you paid for a professional service to be carried out by a vet to ascertain the the health and condition of this youngster. If the vet passed it as fit for purpose, and did not note the sarcoids and poor condition - speak to them. They surely must be who you have the issue ultimately with.

As for your statement that you only noticed her poor condition when she lost her coat - poor condition is clearly evidenced with or without a winter coat......

 

[ihatework]

Do you know anything about young horses?
They go through growth spurts, in short periods of time they can go from looking okay, to a bit ribby. It's not the end of the world. So it might have been okay and recently gone through a growth spurt or more likely got a bit stressed at moving. Obviously your horse management skills would surely be able to detect a poor horse irrespective of winter coat ...

You know what, the sarcoids are a bummer, I'd be peeved too, but I would expect no comeback on the breeder.

And for future horse buying episodes I'd follow the 'eyes wide open' approach rather than adopting blind good faith

 

[ponykiss69]

Thanks for that, I have a horse with ringbone as well, so its not going very well..

 

[galaxy]

But you had him vetted. Surely he passed and therefore a vet told you that just before he left his breeder that he was fit and healthy.

I think you have more of a case against the vet than breeder... the breeder is only going to say he passed a vetting so was healthy when he left her.

 

[Umbongo]

Occult sarcoids are one of 6 types of sarcoid and according to research are actually the least dangerous type. All types of sarcoid can spread over the body. Are they definitely sarcoids? As without skin sample testing occult sarcoids could be confused with: Rub marks from tack, harness or solid objects, Ringworm (dermatophytosis), Alopecia areata, Pemphigus foliaeceus, Dermal naevus. They are classed as the least dangerous type of sarcoid but obviously this does depend on the placement, number and size. Sorry bit of a lecture

 

[ponykiss69]

I hate work..
Yes I do know about young horses ta, yes I know they have spurts, she is not croup high and this is why I did not initially think there was a problem, but her bloods came back with the liver registering as high, so worm damage maybe...

They are occult sarcoids, I suspect she had them last year and the seller knew they were there, they were covered in her winter coat and they are flat..
The vet should have got them to hold her down and ran his hands ovber her..
My mother breeds dogs, and most dog breeders have a care for their reputations. It seems horsey people want others to be responsible, but are scared to stand up for their rights as buyers, faulty goods are the same if its a horse, or a kettle or a car, the seller has a responsibility as well to make sure whatthey say is right, what they sell is not just passing on a problem..
Surprised you all would just accept it, also the sarcoids are not just one, there are maybe 40, they are flat and spread over the skin, theya re between her legs and armpits and I am sure now on her shoulder..
Yes the vet is responsible for finsing out, but this breeder has had this horse 3 years, you telling me she did'nt know, that is irresponsible in itself, 1 one month and 40 sarcoids, she knew about them, she knew they were there that is for sure! if not, she shold have taken more care and handled the horse as it was practically wild when I got it barely halter trained, COULD NOT pick up its feet at rising 4 this year, the horse was not handled! This is not the way to breed and sell horses??

 

[ihatework]

Thanks for that, I have a horse with ringbone as well, so its not going very well..

I really think you are over reacting. It's not the doom and gloom you are making out. Not only are there a variety of very effective treatments avaialble, but also assuming you are insured this is something your insurance company should cover.

That aside, unless you want a show horse, the liklihood of sarcoids stopping a horse from performing it's job is slim - it's only really bad cases that would do that.

Perhaps stop trying to shift the blame and looking backwards and instead focus on having fun with your new horse?

 

[ponykiss69]

Yes you are confused, one horse I have had for 3 years and has been diagnosed in december with ringbone, read the first post!!!

 

[skychick]

Mmm, I'm sorry - I maybe being really dense here, so apols if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick. It doesn't matter who the breeder or the stallion was - any horse can get a sarcoid(s).

If the youngster was poor when you viewed and purchased it - why didn't you raise the issue then and there with the seller. Why did you pay a significant amount of money for something that you felt was may not have been up to the job you intended it for?

Does the veterinary report mention it's poor condition?

If the sarcoids are all over her - then I agree that the vet should have noted them in the report, but equally it's not beyond the realms of expectation that you should have noted them too.

If you have paid out £1k for the treatment of the sarcoids - wow, I'm gobsmacked. I've never heard of them costing that much to treat....

As for buying in good faith - yes we do to a certain extent. But we also buy(er) beware). However, you paid for a professional service to be carried out by a vet to ascertain the the health and condition of this youngster. If the vet passed it as fit for purpose, and did not note the sarcoids and poor condition - speak to them. They surely must be who you have the issue ultimately with.

As for your statement that you only noticed her poor condition when she lost her coat - poor condition is clearly evidenced with or without a winter coat......

I have to agree with every one of amymays points here....

Sarcoids can affect the best of horses, and i have had several friends whos horses have had them over the years and its never cost them anything like £1000 to treat.
Why did you not get your own vet of choice to vet the horse?

And again agreeing with amymay.....you can see if a horse is in poor condition with or without a winter coat.
I bought my new horse at the end of february...but before that i tried out a couple of horses that turned out to be in poor condition when i got there. One of them had the thickest winter coat...but you could tell it was in poor condition by the way its coat lay and by using your hands to feel the horse for skin/fat/muscle coverage, i didnt need a vet to point out that it was poor...i could see and feel for myself.
Although it could be that stress of the move/change in routine and feeding could have contributed to the horse loosing weight and condition after you bought it.

I am a little confused as to why you thought the breeder would take the horse back and exchange it for one costing £2500 more??
If you have seen the horse and then had a vetting, i dont think that the responsibility is with the breeder to take the horse back or exchange it for one of considerably higher value.

 

[ponykiss69]

Shifting the blame suggest I am responsible for giving the horse sarcoids?
Think how you would react, properly, in your head, think before replying

 

[Umbongo]

Surely when you went to view the horse you could see that it was virtually un-handled? And I agree most people can see if a horse is in poor condition through it's winter coat. And if so then why did you pay £4000 for it? it is the vet you have to raise your issues with, not the breeder. Buyer beware I'm afraid. there are lots of people that screw potential owners over, you have to go in with your eyes wide open.

 

[ihatework]

Shifting the blame suggest I am responsible for giving the horse sarcoids?
Think how you would react, properly, in your head, think before replying

I know exactly how I would react.
I would be peed off with myself for being made a fool of, I would be annoyed that I was stupid enough to hand over 4K for a poor 3yo, that by the sounds of it could not be handled sufficiently well enough for a vet to conduct an efficient examination.
I would be red faced and would learn from the experience. I would take the issue up with the vet I employed to perform a pre-purchase examination and would expect them to cover the cost of treating the horse. I would then accept what I had and would get on with looking after and producing the horse that I had purchased.

 

[galaxy]

I have bought from a couple of breeders. All of them have been just halter broken. Nothing else. Couldn't pick up feet etc... That's standard and why people often go to breeders... they're untouched, unspoiled.

The one that I bought couldn't even be touch. Didn't have it vetted (vet wouldn't have got anywhere near it!), bought and signed receipt as sold as seen. My risk. 1 month of handling later I found 2 small sarcoids under its belly. Probably were there when I bought it. Did the breeder know? Probably not, she wasn't handled. Was I cross with the breeder? No. I bought it sold as seen. Up to me to thoroughly check it out. I had them treated and now they're gone.

A friend of mine has apony that is basically one giant sarcoid (bless her). they all appeared one winter. Summer before she had none. Grew a ridiculous coat, and isn't used much (12hh). The following April she had come up in loads of sarcoids.

How can you prove it you coudn't see them through the summer coat that they were there the previous year. How do you know they didn't come up through the winter when covered by coat so couldn't be seen just like you couldn't see them when you and your vet examined her on purchase?

BTW... When I bought my KC reg puppy I signed a contract saying I had to have my vet examine him within 48 hrs of collection if I wanted to return him due to ill health... Can't see any difference between that and having a horse vetted.

 

[AmyMay]

she shold have taken more care and handled the horse as it was practically wild when I got it barely halter trained, COULD NOT pick up its feet at rising 4 this year, the horse was not handled!

Based on your initial (and perhaps subsequent) viewing of the horse - did you have an expectation that these issues would have been resolved by the time you took collection of it? Because you would have been aware of them prior to purchase.

Also - depending really on the breeders way of doing things - many, many youngsters remain handled minimally until breaking in time.......

 

[ThePony]

ponykiss69, I think it would really help everyone to be able to give you advice if you were able to give a consistent description of the youngster. We have gine from one occult sarcoid between the legs (easily missed imo) to 40 over the armpits, back legs etc. I would imagine that if there are that many and are spreading over the shoulders so fast then ringworm is something you should consider unless you have a vets diagnosis for sarcoid. It would be unusual to have so many so quickly with apparently no evidence even under a winter coat.